How do stores set up ro and de-chlorine systems ?

[gardenman]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:42 PM, anewbie said:

THat is essentailly what I said - 2 tanks - the holding tanks and the pressure tnak - actually 4 tanks - because i also need a pair for dechlorinated water.  The scale is  a bit off - I actually need around 4 GPH continous and then more water during water changes for the tanks that are not on the drip system. I would guess I need at most around 200 gallons in an hour; so maybe a 200 gallon holding tank for ro and then a 50 gallon pressure tank. That would actually give me around 250 gallons - or something along that line - i have to think about the actual amount i need but i guess as long as the holding tank is large enough to meet my needs the pressure tank can be small since it can constantly refill itself from the holding tank. What sort of pump did you actually use? I.e., how does the pump auto shut off - is that circuit in the pressure tank ?

It's a well pump with a pressure switch attached. It senses the pressure in the pressure tank and comes on when the pressure drops below a certain level and then shuts off when it reaches the upper limit. My well pump has a 20/40 pressure switch. It pressurizes the tank to 40 PSI then shuts off and stays off until the water pressure in the tank drops below 20 PSI. 

[anewbie]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:11 PM, gardenman said:

It's a well pump with a pressure switch attached. It senses the pressure in the pressure tank and comes on when the pressure drops below a certain level and then shuts off when it reaches the upper limit. My well pump has a 20/40 pressure switch. It pressurizes the tank to 40 PSI then shuts off and stays off until the water pressure in the tank drops below 20 PSI. 

What does the pump do if the well runs dry ?

[gardenman]

On 1/25/2022 at 9:15 PM, anewbie said:

What does the pump do if the well runs dry ?

When a well runs dry the pump overheats and the thermal protection kicks in and kills the pump before it can burn out. It's supposed to anyway. That's how they're typically designed.

[StevesFishTanks]

For the tap water "de-chlorine" side of your system:

I run my tap water with chloramines through several different cartridge filters before it is put into my tanks.

If you only have chlorine and not chloramine then its an even easier process to filter out using city pressure only without a holding tank/reservoir just using inline carbon filters.

A friend of mine uses a giant upflow carbon filter only, not even a prefilter lol. Its rigged to a garden hose to manually fill tanks at his store https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/upflow-non-electric-catalytic-carbon-filter you can also change/add media for your specification.

I have no pump and use the city pressure to drive the water into the tanks once the solenoids are opened by my sprinkler controller

I have my flow rate capped at 0.5gpm on this system to give the most dwell time in the filters.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mXhJMY0nAtFoQ4Lrvd1DrhWizs-t4NCzuNBuFd3bCOk/edit#gid=736804507

The 20" filter does the majority if not all of the work, the other smaller sized filters were used because I had them on hand. My initial auto water change system was setup per tank with the smaller 10" blocks.

Edited January 26, 2022 by StevesFishTanks

[Andy's Fish Den]

About ten years ago, I worked in a LFS that had fresh and salt water fish. Our freshwater tanks had an auto water change system like what many people use in their fishrooms with a rainbird controller and solenoids controlling the different zones. That water went through a sediment filter and a carbon block to remove the chlorine from the water. For our saltwater systems, we had a large RO/DI unit, and two 350 gallon poly barrels, one holding RO/DI water and the other holding mixed saltwater. Both had large mag-drive pumps that were constantly on. If I was to design a similar system now, I would use one of the many available DC power controllable pumps. There were several valves on the piping that would allow RO/DI water to go into either the saltwater mixing barrel, all the sumps for sale tanks, or a hose bib to fill jugs etc. The same was for the saltwater barrel, we could turn a valve to fill sumps back up after water changes, a hose bib to fill jugs for customers, etc

There are a lot of mixing station set ups to check out on various saltwater keeping YouTube videos as well as saltwater forums such as Reef Central. 

If I was going to design a system now, there are many things available to make it easier than having to turn a bunch of valves, such as solenoids, wifi plugs and timers, float switches etc. You could make the system as simple or as tech involved as you would like. 

[anewbie]

On 1/26/2022 at 6:16 AM, Andy's Fish Den said:

About ten years ago, I worked in a LFS that had fresh and salt water fish. Our freshwater tanks had an auto water change system like what many people use in their fishrooms with a rainbird controller and solenoids controlling the different zones. That water went through a sediment filter and a carbon block to remove the chlorine from the water. For our saltwater systems, we had a large RO/DI unit, and two 350 gallon poly barrels, one holding RO/DI water and the other holding mixed saltwater. Both had large mag-drive pumps that were constantly on. If I was to design a similar system now, I would use one of the many available DC power controllable pumps. There were several valves on the piping that would allow RO/DI water to go into either the saltwater mixing barrel, all the sumps for sale tanks, or a hose bib to fill jugs etc. The same was for the saltwater barrel, we could turn a valve to fill sumps back up after water changes, a hose bib to fill jugs for customers, etc

There are a lot of mixing station set ups to check out on various saltwater keeping YouTube videos as well as saltwater forums such as Reef Central. 

If I was going to design a system now, there are many things available to make it easier than having to turn a bunch of valves, such as solenoids, wifi plugs and timers, float switches etc. You could make the system as simple or as tech involved as you would like. 

You said the pumps where always on; what happened when the pump is on but the valve is close? Does pressure build up in the pipe until something gives ? My case is a bit easier than salt water because i want the ro water pure (for non black water tank it will get mixed with dechlorinated water before entering the tank which should adjust the ph; for black water (not really black water but low ph tank) I will want the ph low (below 6); so ph crash is fine (I'll probably run it through peat before it enters the tank but that can be manualish).

[anewbie]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:35 PM, StevesFishTanks said:

For the tap water "de-chlorine" side of your system:

I run my tap water with chloramines through several different cartridge filters before it is put into my tanks.

If you only have chlorine and not chloramine then its an even easier process to filter out using city pressure only without a holding tank/reservoir just using inline carbon filters.

A friend of mine uses a giant upflow carbon filter only, not even a prefilter lol. Its rigged to a garden hose to manually fill tanks at his store https://www.freshwatersystems.com/products/upflow-non-electric-catalytic-carbon-filter you can also change/add media for your specification.

 

On an item like the one linked above how often do you have to change the carbon; and is there any warning when the carbon is exhausted and chlorine is getting through. We have chlorine and not chloramine; but i worry about these system 'failing' or requiring constant maint. Kind of wish there was a system that could ionize out the chlorine without wearing out or requiring yearly maint.

[Judobadger]

I have a 150 Gallon per day RO unit set up for my reef tank and to supply drinking water to our refrigerator upstairs.  I use a small pressure tank (5 gallons) and an aquatec demand/supply pump that automatically switches on as needed that helps keep the supply to the refrigerator at pressure.  Its more than enough for that use.  Its not going to do on demand water changes, but supplies a steady stream of water on demand no problem.  You can buy larger pressure tanks, which will store more water if you need to draw a large amount of water at one time.  I almost bought a 20 gallon one, but it was overkill for my needs.

[ScottieB]

On 1/25/2022 at 3:17 PM, anewbie said:

This is helpful but there is a key issue with how to get the water to the rooms. The water has to flow continous on demand because i want one of the large tank to use a drip system where approx 1.5 GPH is flowing into the tank and then down the drain via the sump. I don't think we can form a continous loop with the water tank. Also looking at the tank you linked - while I like the dimension of the 500 gallon tank; I don't see a way it could be used for this application. That is the input from the ro unit would have to go to the top to flow down into the tank but there is no way to auto-shut the thing off; and while you could connect a pump to the output and use a smart switch to turn it on (i use the ones controlled via the phone); it wouldn't flow continously and it would be error prone (for example what happens if you close the faucet before you stop the pump - then pressure is going to build up until something gives.

Ok, you may be aware of this already but the RO (or dechlor) unit can be plumbed to feed into the tanks with a float valve. If the RO is connected directly to a water supply (as opposed to the faucet) when the water level drops the float valve allows the water to flow in and then shuts off when a certain level triggers the float valve to close. It’s a passive, and is the no pump method I use to keep the large holding tank full. 

And to connect the RO units to your cold water supply they can be put under a sink and connected with something like a saddle valve.   This avoids any issue with the faucet, which would still continue to function normally. 
 

The idea your trying to do is probably doable but might require separate systems. That is one separate RO (or dechlor) unit set as your continuous drip system and the other for the holding tanks/water changes. Just another couple thoughts I had. 
 

 

[StevesFishTanks]

On 1/26/2022 at 9:06 AM, anewbie said:

On an item like the one linked above how often do you have to change the carbon; and is there any warning when the carbon is exhausted and chlorine is getting through. We have chlorine and not chloramine; but i worry about these system 'failing' or requiring constant maint. Kind of wish there was a system that could ionize out the chlorine without wearing out or requiring yearly maint.

I use a flow meter to monitor flow rate and total gallons passed through the filters. Once you lock in the flow rate you can use the spec sheets that come with the higher end filters to estimate when it will need to be replaced. 

Filters like the spec sheet above are usually sold for whole house applications, upflow canisters are the same but with a much greater capacity. Both filters will last a very long time when used for aquariums.  You can choose to test water monthly or just pick a safe interval to change the filter based on time. The big filter like my friend uses work for multiple bath whole house filtration and last many years maintenance free.

Either way you will want to remove chlorine before your RO unit to extend its filtration life/capacity.  So the de-chlorination part of your system will be doing double duty.

[Andy's Fish Den]

On 1/26/2022 at 8:59 AM, anewbie said:

You said the pumps where always on; what happened when the pump is on but the valve is close? Does pressure build up in the pipe until something gives ? My case is a bit easier than salt water because i want the ro water pure (for non black water tank it will get mixed with dechlorinated water before entering the tank which should adjust the ph; for black water (not really black water but low ph tank) I will want the ph low (below 6); so ph crash is fine (I'll probably run it through peat before it enters the tank but that can be manualish).

The way the piping was laid out would cause the water to circulate inside the storage barrels. there were several valves that would have to be turned on and off to direct where we wanted the water to go

[anewbie]

On 1/26/2022 at 11:46 AM, ScottieB said:

Ok, you may be aware of this already but the RO (or dechlor) unit can be plumbed to feed into the tanks with a float valve. If the RO is connected directly to a water supply (as opposed to the faucet) when the water level drops the float valve allows the water to flow in and then shuts off when a certain level triggers the float valve to close. It’s a passive, and is the no pump method I use to keep the large holding tank full. 

And to connect the RO units to your cold water supply they can be put under a sink and connected with something like a saddle valve.   This avoids any issue with the faucet, which would still continue to function normally. 
 

The idea your trying to do is probably doable but might require separate systems. That is one separate RO (or dechlor) unit set as your continuous drip system and the other for the holding tanks/water changes. Just another couple thoughts I had. 
 

 

Did you use the 500 or 260 storage tank and how did you hook your ro to it? If you still have it could you post a picture ? Which float value did you use? I'm trying to understand how this work given what I know about ro unit hook up and the picture i saw of the storage tank (the link you provided had 2 tanks; but both of them look like they had large openings in the top which suggest the ro unit had to be mounted on the wall about 4 feet high.

[ScottieB]

I used the narrow 260g one, it was only 29 inches wide so I could easily get through the doors and hallways to the basement. I did replace the Brass Spigot with a PVC version. I did not what any heavy metal around pure RO water. 

I used this float valve, (the same one in the video) its pretty easy. I drilled a 1/2' hole near the top of the tank and fed the RO tubing directly in. This is an old video but will give you a good visual. 

 

Edit: I'll try to get a picture when I get home. Hope this helps in the meantime

Edited January 27, 2022 by ScottieB

[Steph’s Fish and Plants]

I work at a rather large fish store with a robust freshwater section and a robust saltwater section (each have their own staff). For freshwater we have an upstairs room with two 1000 gallon bins that we fill. There’s a temperature gauge, a hot water and cold water thing, and a sprinkler timer with some sort of RODI canisters it goes through before entering the bins. Each day we fill whatever bin we were pulling from and swap to the other one in the evening. Once the bin has been refilled we dechlorinated with Alpha, then crash and rebuffed Kh with white vinegar and baking soda. Then the next morning we test Kh and pH and temp of both bins. We try to always have at least one bin full and aging for a day because we use at least 1000 gallons each day, sometimes more if we are filling our indoor koi river and or outdoor water feature, or if we sold a lot of water that day (customers can purchase our water so they don’t have to worry about buffering and dechlorinating or if they have contaminants). The bins supply water to several parts of the building, including our downstairs breeding room, quarantine room, 4 houses on the floor near various racks, our indoor koi river, and hoses inside and outside the building for customers who are buying water. I’m not sure however how we supply pressure to those hoses, gravity certainly plays a role but I’m sure there’s pumps as well. Your best bet for what you’re wanting to do would be to consult some reef keepers with particularly large aquariums (several hundred gallons) who store large amounts of RODI and saltwater in a mixing station and even some automate it for auto water change. I believe they use carbon block filters to strip chlorine but I could be wrong on that.

[anewbie]

I think i have most of the details I need. I think i will go with that dechlorinate system linked above - the output of that can flow into the ro unit and pvc piping (it requires no storage bin or pumps since it use faucet pressure). The ro unit will go into either the 260 or 500 gallon tank linked by scottie and i will drill the appropriate hole for the ro unit (if i'm not mistaken he has to mount his ro unit above the tank. That tank will flow into a 40 gallon pressure tank with a well pump which then go to the pvc piping. 

 

I think i have only 2 open issues; first if i need to replace the brass fitting with pvc fitting (not sure if brass will leach into the ro water) and if i need 260 gallon or 500 gallon storage tanks. My thought is that 260 will work as long as I don't have any emergencies. If i can fit the 500 gallon storage tank through the doors then i should consider that. The only reason to use a 40 gallon pressure tank over a 2 gallon pressure tank is to reduce pump run time/frequency. The de-chlorinator is a real plus (if it works) since it doesn't require any sort of storage tanks. I have a couple of months to think about it before i need to order things but unless I missed something significant this sounds like a reasonable solution.

[Patrick_G]

On 1/26/2022 at 6:54 AM, Judobadger said:

I have a 150 Gallon per day RO unit set up for my reef tank and to supply drinking water to our refrigerator upstairs.  I use a small pressure tank (5 gallons) and an aquatec demand/supply pump that automatically switches on as needed that helps keep the supply to the refrigerator at pressure.  Its more than enough for that use.  Its not going to do on demand water changes, but supplies a steady stream of water on demand no problem.  You can buy larger pressure tanks, which will store more water if you need to draw a large amount of water at one time.  I almost bought a 20 gallon one, but it was overkill for my needs.

I’m in the marine trades and this the type of system is used on most boats. It’s simple and scalable up to a point. Any equipment meant for marine use has extra cost but systems for well water are similar and I think they’re much cheaper. 

[ScottieB]

On 1/27/2022 at 11:36 AM, anewbie said:

I think i have most of the details I need. I think i will go with that dechlorinate system linked above - the output of that can flow into the ro unit and pvc piping (it requires no storage bin or pumps since it use faucet pressure). The ro unit will go into either the 260 or 500 gallon tank linked by scottie and i will drill the appropriate hole for the ro unit (if i'm not mistaken he has to mount his ro unit above the tank. That tank will flow into a 40 gallon pressure tank with a well pump which then go to the pvc piping. 

 

I think i have only 2 open issues; first if i need to replace the brass fitting with pvc fitting (not sure if brass will leach into the ro water) and if i need 260 gallon or 500 gallon storage tanks. My thought is that 260 will work as long as I don't have any emergencies. If i can fit the 500 gallon storage tank through the doors then i should consider that. The only reason to use a 40 gallon pressure tank over a 2 gallon pressure tank is to reduce pump run time/frequency. The de-chlorinator is a real plus (if it works) since it doesn't require any sort of storage tanks. I have a couple of months to think about it before i need to order things but unless I missed something significant this sounds like a reasonable solution.

I think your on the right track. I use the 260 since my primary use is to mix up 50 gallons of salt water at a time. I can do a few water changes then leave to RO unit for a day or two and fill it back up. If you have the room and your not trying to save money on it the 500 would be great. They are bigger then you might imagine so measure out the space and see what works for you. RO water is theoretically devoid of any minerals so passing it through a metal fitting or copper pipe or anything will erode the metal and definitely leach heavy metals into your fresh RO water. Thats why for drinking water systems or whole house RO units there's always a "re-mineralization" chamber to restore some pH buffer and hardness to the water. 

I'm actually gonna go do the same thing with the DeChlor unit to run auto-water changes on a rack of freshwater tanks in the fishroom. I might run two in series and replace in the media on an alternating schedule every so often. I'll have to test over time to how long the media will last. I'll let you know how it goes. 

 

[anewbie]

On 1/27/2022 at 2:07 PM, ScottieB said:

I think your on the right track. I use the 260 since my primary use is to mix up 50 gallons of salt water at a time. I can do a few water changes then leave to RO unit for a day or two and fill it back up. If you have the room and your not trying to save money on it the 500 would be great. They are bigger then you might imagine so measure out the space and see what works for you. RO water is theoretically devoid of any minerals so passing it through a metal fitting or copper pipe or anything will erode the metal and definitely leach heavy metals into your fresh RO water. Thats why for drinking water systems or whole house RO units there's always a "re-mineralization" chamber to restore some pH buffer and hardness to the water. 

I'm actually gonna go do the same thing with the DeChlor unit to run auto-water changes on a rack of freshwater tanks in the fishroom. I might run two in series and replace in the media on an alternating schedule every so often. I'll have to test over time to how long the media will last. I'll let you know how it goes. 

 

How difficult was it to replace the copper fittings with pvc (again if possible link would be helpful; I'm challenged here but i suspect these are in reality standard parts). I'm checking with the architect if the 500 gallon will fit. My tank demand are not as high as your in that the tanks are fresh water but my water needs are summarized as follow:

2 400 gallon tank which will need approx .5 gallon of ro water per hour (i will mix .5 gallon ro with .5 dechlorinated water and send it into the system; i will have one low ph tank that will use nearly pure ro water - it is around 140 gallons; given how delicate the fishes are in that tank i will likely do 10% water change twice a week so that is 28 gallons; I have 3 other 100 gallon tank that will receive approx 1:2 (ro:tap) at 50% a week. If i did the math correctly that is approx 256 gallons a week. The reason i'm considering the larger container are (a expansion if i add more tanks to the basement); and emergency - i have to replace the water in a 400 gallon tank because of some unforeseen issue). However if the 500 gallon won't fit i could probably live with 260 container and call it a day.

-

I am a little concern if the pressurize tank will fill fast enough with the well pump to provide continuous water - i.e, will the water stop flowing while the pressurize tank refills that would be a big problem. I suspect that is not the case since people are using this setup for their wells - the water would stop flowing int he middle of showers and stuff which would be a pia. 

 

Anyway i hope that helps explain my application and requirements. I still have concern about (for example) chlorine getting into the water due to some fault and i don't notice it... also concern that enough chlorine is actually removed by the device that it won't harm the fish as I suspect there is some residue. For some tanks (like the live bearer tank) I do very large water changes so chlorine might harm them if there is a large enough trace.

[anewbie]

So I chatted with the folks at freshwatersystem and they were extremely helpful. One thing they commented on is that a pressure tank is not required; i can hook up the pump directly to the pvc and use the pressure of the pvc to turn the pump on/off.

 

[ScottieB]

I’m glad your getting some answered and it sounds like your getting close to figuring out a system.  

Changing out the brass fitting is easy. The tanks should (or at least used to be) fitted with bulkheads in a few locations. One at the very bottom and one a few feet from the bottom. The brass fitting can be easily unscrewed from the bulkhead and replaced with 1/2 pvc. Here a couple pictures from my 260g holding tanks, 

Don’t judge my messy pvc gluing! 

I agree (with the experts) that the pressure tank is not necessarily required. You water demands are high so consider a good RO unit with a high output. Spectrapure makes some high output, high efficiency units. They also have “industrial” or whole house units. 

I’m thinking of running two of the dechlor units in series to avoid potential issues like you mention. But I do very small, more continuous water changes. 

 

[anewbie]

On 1/27/2022 at 10:35 PM, ScottieB said:

I’m glad your getting some answered and it sounds like your getting close to figuring out a system.  

Changing out the brass fitting is easy. The tanks should (or at least used to be) fitted with bulkheads in a few locations. One at the very bottom and one a few feet from the bottom. The brass fitting can be easily unscrewed from the bulkhead and replaced with 1/2 pvc. Here a couple pictures from my 260g holding tanks, 

Don’t judge my messy pvc gluing! 

I agree (with the experts) that the pressure tank is not necessarily required. You water demands are high so consider a good RO unit with a high output. Spectrapure makes some high output, high efficiency units. They also have “industrial” or whole house units. 

I’m thinking of running two of the dechlor units in series to avoid potential issues like you mention. But I do very small, more continuous water changes. 

 

Do you have a picture of how the ro unit is hooked up and which float switch you used ? It sounded like you drilled a hole of some sort into the top of the container to connect the ro unit. Do you have a problem with mold or similar building up in the container ?

[ScottieB]

On 1/28/2022 at 12:34 PM, anewbie said:

Do you have a picture of how the ro unit is hooked up and which float switch you used ? It sounded like you drilled a hole of some sort into the top of the container to connect the ro unit. Do you have a problem with mold or similar building up in the container ?

Oh yeah,sorry. Forgot to add that picture.  The first is a picture of the outside of the tank with the RO tubing is being fed into the float valve. I’ll put a second picture from my inside my reef tank sump to show you what the both sides look like. 
 

[anewbie]

On 1/28/2022 at 2:58 PM, ScottieB said:

Oh yeah,sorry. Forgot to add that picture.  The first is a picture of the outside of the tank with the RO tubing is being fed into the float valve. I’ll put a second picture from my inside my reef tank sump to show you what the both sides look like. 
 

So you put a float valve like the one you use for your reef sump instead the blue storage tank; was it difficult to get your hand in there to place it inside and how does it connect to the ro unit ? I know what the valve basically looks like from a toilet for example but not sure how it stops the ro unit from producing more water; or does it simply shut off flow from the tube and the ro unit then has back pressure which keeps it from producing more water?

Edited January 28, 2022 by anewbie

[anewbie]

Hum. It looks like something of this sort will work:

https://www.amazon.com/AquaticLife-Float-Valve-Kit-Systems/dp/B00HZ6A476

 

Do you have problems with mold growing in your blue container ? I.e, do i need to do something to keep stuff from growing in that water ?

[ScottieB]

On 1/28/2022 at 3:27 PM, anewbie said:

Hum. It looks like something of this sort will work:

https://www.amazon.com/AquaticLife-Float-Valve-Kit-Systems/dp/B00HZ6A476

 

Do you have problems with mold growing in your blue container ? I.e, do i need to do something to keep stuff from growing in that water ?

Yeah, that’s exactly it. Your right all all accounts.
 

But for most RO units you don’t need to the auto shut off solenoid which is the extra white piece that the RO tubbing would connect to. It prob wont harm anything but I like to limit the connections and points of failure. Most good RO units sold (Bulk Reef Supply, spectrapure  and prob others) have an auto-shut off built in since most are run like the way we’re talking about.

Once the float valve floats up the back pressure would automatically turn off the RO unit. The water and the pressure is still keeping the RO unit effectively primed so that when the valve drops the water starts flowing again. Honestly it’s simplicity is beautiful. Some RO units though have an automatic “flush” system that washes off the actual membrane and helps prolong the life of the membrane. You can’t really use this type of system and flush the membrane automatically. You can flush it manually by flipping a valve on the unit that may find. Lastly you will have to replace the membrane and the media when your TDS creeps up. That’s more dependent on the TDS coming out of your tap.

Yes, I was a little weary about reaching into the tank to screw the other side of the float valve in the but with that tank empty and laying flat it was pretty easy. Just use a flat surface to get a good contact. The closer to the top you put it the more water you can get in there.

Mine has been running for a couple years (4ish) and the tank is still super clean. I don’t have any issues with mold. I suppose you could always use a splash of bleach then rinse it a few times, some dechlorinator and clean it that way. It’s designed to hold drinking water and technically “food grade”.