Bolivian Ram, 1x cloudy eye and "itchy"??

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hey all, (friends @Odd Duck @Colu?) I hate to report Punk my beloved Bolivian has had an issue recently. One of his eyes is starting to look cloudy and I can only guess it's because occassionally I see him scraping up against objects in the tank (mostly a piece of chola). Other than the eye I'm not seein any other outside signs of illness. The tank, with ACO strips, tested inconclusive 2x on ammonia- could be nothing could be .5. My Seachem Ammonia Alert says water is safe (bright yellow). I changed water anyway and have been Prime-ing the tank. What do you guys think? His companion, Industry is perfect and not displaying any discomfort. I have been getting an occassional Black Neon (female) bloating up REALLY big (assuming eggs), have lost one to that but it's been quite a while (at least a month or more). Right now I have 2 Neons that are big but don't appear to be uncomfortable. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Colu]

Cloudy eye can be caused by a number of things poor water quality bacterial infection or an injury if your water parameters are fine no ammonia nitrite and low nitrate then it's more than likely an injury I couldn't rule out a bacterial infection I would add a low dose of salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons at that level it shouldn't harm your plants for 7 days  if it start to get worse then I would follow up with a course of maracyn2 @xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

@Colu exactly on point again.  And Maracyn 2 can be in the water or in the food.  With a cloudy eye, I tend to go in the water since since the blood doesn’t really circulate through the cornea.  Beware what the antibiotics can do to your biofiltration.

Take pics if you can so it’s easier to compare daily.

[nabokovfan87]

One thing to add in here....

I saw a vid with "in the bag" on YouTube and they rescued a puffer. It has blindness, which could be similar to what you're dealing with.

Essentially, one cause of the eye issues could be nutritionally based. I know you're doing all the right things, but I just wanted to mention it. Make sure you're feeding 2-3 dry foods from different brands to get the right mix of amino acid chains and just to cover that aspect of things.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Thanks all, I started with the salt as @Colu suggested so we'll see how things stand in a week. I do feed at least a half dozen different foods so I don't think it's nutritional but it's good to know for whoever might read this in the future. His eye is cloudy but not totally white so I have hope maybe it can repair itself, though he doesn't seem to see too well out of that side. I'm not sure if it was absolutely correct to do so but today I put in some Nitrofurazone flakes with their regular flakes. Hopefully he'll eat some of those. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

No real change here yet. Left the tank as is on maintenance day other than Prime. I'm feeding the nitrofurazone flakes mixed with regular as well. He and Industry have been hanging out mostly in the middle of the tank, I wonder if he's just following her because of his current handicap as she spends a lot of her time there or if they are both avoiding the saltiest part of the tank (I imagine, like when I make sugar water for hummingbirds, if the salted water congregates down near the bottom more.) His eye has a small white foggy dot right in the middle, easy for me to see. Continuing to monitor. After salt I might just leave the tank and watch his behavior. Have not observed him rubbing up against anything but haven't had a whole lot of time to watch. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

   Well. This isn't getting much better. Perhaps even a little worse. Punk has taken to staying in a certain part of the tank too, which can't be good. On 2nd round of salt. Then, I'm sitting at the table facing the tank last night and what do I see?! Industry jabs him on his bad side when he dared come out from the part of the tank he's been sticking to! Ok, that's not happening missy. So I got out a net and quickly got her out and now she's a semi-permanent resident of the Parent Tank. A little concerned about how she'll treat the Cory since they will share the bottom of the tank with her (as she seems to hang in the lower half as most Bolivians do). I saw her chasing along with them this morning. Pretty sure the Otos will be ok and I hope she won't be a longfin pleco picker. She was upset with me last night but seemed perfectly content to swim back and forth with the Cory this morning. Hope my poor little Punk can recover his eye function. The 200 gallon custom tank is coming pretty soon, though it will still take some time before it's set up. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:38 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

A little concerned about how she'll treat the Cory since they will share the bottom of the tank with her (as she seems to hang in the lower half as most Bolivians do).

Mine never had any issues. He was with some Julii corydoras. Every fish has their own personality, so fingers crossed for that situation.

I'm sorry about Punk, is there anything in the water besides salt?  Have you tried any bacterial meds apart from the flakes?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 12/7/2023 at 1:37 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Mine never had any issues. He was with some Julii corydoras. Every fish has their own personality, so fingers crossed for that situation.

That's good to know, however I didn't think she was aggressive towards Punk either. I will give that they were in a 20 gallon together with a bunch of other fish which wasn't ideal- no personal space- and this isn't any better really for her as the Parent Tank is also over populated (but no other Bolivians of course)- both tanks are more temporary as time goes on. I'm hoping all of my fish get to live some portion of their lives in the 200 gallon, and for now we just make do the best I can. She's in there with my Juliis

 

On 12/7/2023 at 1:37 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I'm sorry about Punk, is there anything in the water besides salt?  Have you tried any bacterial meds apart from the flakes

Nothing right now other than salt and the flakes. I'm not sure I need to go meds route yet because if she was the culprit maybe time, less stress and salted water will be helpful for him. But I'm open to suggestions. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:29 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Nothing right now other than salt and the flakes. I'm not sure I need to go meds route yet because if she was the culprit maybe time, less stress and salted water will be helpful for him. But I'm open to suggestions. 

My only experience rep with the eye issues is Riddick.  It was a bacterial thing in addition to an actual eye injury.  This is her now:



That eye never got fully recovered and based on research it's likely a cataract.  When I first saw the issue she had ghostly white eyes.
 

If you want to share photos and stuff that might help Colu and Odd Duck with their recommendations on what to use. 

I would recommend the maracyn 2 route or Kanaplex route just to try to clear up things if the salt doesn't show any affect here shortly.  If you haven't, I would also toss in some botanicals.

[Odd Duck]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:48 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would recommend the maracyn 2 route or Kanaplex route just to try to clear up things if the salt doesn't show any affect here shortly.  If you haven't, I would also toss in some botanicals.

I think this is appropriate but I would lean towards the Maracyn 2 in food unless the clouding seems to be on the surface of the eye.  Either in water would be better if the clouding is a surface lesion.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 12/7/2023 at 5:58 PM, Odd Duck said:

the surface of the eye

It is all seemingly surface 

[Odd Duck]

How is the eye looking?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck nothing yet, we're on dose 2 of Kanaplex to the whole tank. He's at least more active and not stuck in a corner. I anticipate if this eye is going to heal it's going to take a significant amount of time. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Update: Well, no meds in the tank right now. Possibly just remnants since water change. No real change. He clearly cannot see well from his foggy eye. When compared to the clear one it doesn't seem inflamed if so not by a lot. They seem about equal. The eye is hard to take pictures of since he likes to have his good eye facing out most of the time. I guess only time will tell at this point unless anyone else has thoughts on more I can do. He otherwise looks very healthy. 

Bad eye: 

Good eye: 

Overall (good side):

[nabokovfan87]

Poor guy.... 😢

I think based on what I can see in the photo, that's more of a physical damage to the eye and permanent.

Has it cleared up at all with anything you've used?

It looks like physical damage to the covering of the eye itself. The cornea.  When I scratched mine I had taken a chunk out and had to use drops to soothe it while it regrew, but this looks like the cornea itself was crushed and is now opaque?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@nabokovfan87 thanks. He seems fine despite the one eye but that clearly puts him at a bit of a disadvantage if other fish decide to be mean (like Industry who is doing fine in the other tank being boss). I think it might be permanent too, however I've also had some experience with eye issues and sometimes they clear up so you never know I guess. 

[nabokovfan87]

Fingers crossed. Hopefully it does heal up!

[Guppysnail]

@xXInkedPhoenixX how is he doing?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I’ve had an issue before where a fish was weak (had been in a hospital tank) and when it was returned the other fish went after it. I think they saw it as a “liability” and wanted to eradicate it. Perhaps that was Industry’s mindset. Hope Punk is doing ok now @xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Guppysnail @Chick-In-Of-TheSea well he's doing better in the sense that he's not being chased/attacked but his eye hasn't cleared at all. I finally got a decent picture of it which I will attach. I was hoping @Colu and/or @Odd Duck might have another idea as this last week I saw him a few times scratch along that side of his body on the substrate and the chola wood in the tank. It makes me think parasites but everyone else seems ok. 

Bad eye: 

Good eye: 

[Odd Duck]

Looks swollen and irritated and maybe getting some fungal growth.  Time for strong salt at 1 tablespoon per gallon.  I would definitely move to quarantine and away from any plants now.  And time for some antifungals.  There are a variety of them but try Ich-X first if you have it. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck, you sure about fungus? I see no fuzziness at all on his body. The lens of his eye is just super foggy. I understand it could be IN the eye right? is that what we're thinkin? I have some Ich X so I'll start treating him with that. 

[Odd Duck]

The cornea looks a bit fuzzy vs. just cloudy.  The fuzz doesn’t seem to be protruding much but I’ve seen an African Grey (parrot for anybody that doesn’t know) that had a fungal infection of the cornea that looked a lot like this.  Hazing of the cornea from bacterial infection or corneal ulcers doesn’t usually look so patchy and irregular.  It tends to be a smooth, homogenous cloudiness if it’s inflamed or a distinct spot that’s a scar.  The scar might have slightly fuzzy edges but will still be relatively homogenous across the central part of the lesion.  This looks a bit more patchy than I would expect for only scarring.  There may be scarring but I’m not certain it’s only scarring.  The first pic especially looks like there might be a very slightly raised spot at the 1:00 position that’s concerning to me.  Plus there are slightly whiter areas closer to the middle of the cornea and just forward from center at about 9:00.  It’s unusual to have more than one ulcer on an eye and more than one area that gets extra cloudy.  Unless there were several wounds happen at the same time or in succession.  Bacterial infections of the cornea tend to spread outward from a single point but fungal infections will spread through the layers of the cornea via tendrils.

Fish will sometimes flash after corneal scarring has happened. They seem to try to rub the scarring away like they think they have something on their eye vs. realizing it’s scarring in the layers of the cornea.  That seems to be beyond their comprehension, but they do eventually get used to it if it’s only scarring.  If they persist in flashing after weeks to months, then there is likely some persistent inflammation and discomfort.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

He seems stressed enough that I chose to leave him in the main tank. I did recently have a black neon die and I have another bloated one (females) which has been an ongoing mystery to me. And though I've tried to treat them, nothing else has worked so far - SO- besides him being stressed I thought it couldn't hurt to treat the whole tank since I haven't tried Ich X yet. That being said I have not added salt to the tank. I did treat with salt (albeit a lower concentration) for quite some time with no changes. If I see any improvement with Punk I will consider removing him and trying salt in QT.