Cursed Aquarium

[schmofam]

I am at my wit's end. I've been using my 10-gallon aquarium for about 8 months now. During this time I originally lost some fish and realized I needed to make some level changes but still, after all of my effort, I'm still losing fish.

I added plants, and crushed coral up to correct the hardness, and plants to increase oxygen as well as keep down nitrate levels. I keep the temperature in the safe zone, around 78 degrees, and ensure the levels are correct. I also have an air stone. Yet, I still lose fish.

I bought this tank used with its associated components. Since then I have spent hundreds to upgrade the tank.

I found a dead platy today and another platy that was born in the tank is showing strange signs like not eating a lot and opening and shutting its mouth like it's breathing. The other platys don't show this behavior. The tank is stocked with just guppies and plays.

I'm very discouraged and not sure what my next move is here. I have invested so much time, and money, and most importantly have not enjoyed the tank due to constant worry.

Edited July 17, 2023 by schmofam

[DaveO]

I'm sure lots of folks would like to help. First download a photo. A picture is worth a thousand words. Include info on actual number of fish, what you feed and how often. Include actual water parameters and what test you use. Test your tap water as well. Include your water change schedule. Also, where did you buy your fish. All this will help to figure out what's going on.

[Galabar]

Have you tested the water?

[schmofam]

Yes, I test the water regularly. I use strips and I also use the testing master kit on occasion. As far as water changes, I base it on levels and also how much water has evaporated in the tank.

I feed usually once a day and follow the rule that they finish it in under 2ish minutes. I have a mystery snail and drop 2-3 of the algae tablets in a day. I have started transitioning over the pellets from flake as we are going out of town and I bought an automatic feeder.

Edited July 17, 2023 by schmofam

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/17/2023 at 11:20 AM, schmofam said:

I'm very discouraged and not sure what my next move is here. I have invested so much time, and money, and most importantly have not enjoyed the tank due to constant worry.

Let's start from the beginning and then proceed into each aspect of the details.

I see your water parameters, high nitrate. I would encourage verifying that via the liquid test if possible.

In terms of the basics, please show your filtration, how it is setup, and which filter are you running? I see the full tank shot so we can get a feel for the hardscape and flow pattern. Are you running an air stone at all?

On 7/17/2023 at 11:20 AM, schmofam said:

I found a dead platy today and another platy that was born in the tank is showing strange signs like not eating a lot and opening and shutting its mouth like it's breathing. The other platys don't show this behavior. The tank is stocked with just guppies and plays.

Add an air stone at minimum asap.

What is your normal maintenance schedule, how much water are you changing and how often?

[schmofam]

I buy my fish from About Fish in Westminster Colorado. Review Here

Currently, I have 9 fish, however, I recently had 12. One guppy I have had from the start died a couple of weeks ago, one died shortly after bringing home the new fish and one died in the last 24 hours.

The ammonia and PH in the tap water are a bit high so I use Prime and Discus Buffer to bring them down.

Yes, I have been using an air stone the whole time.

Edited July 17, 2023 by schmofam

[nabokovfan87]

The strip test above shows slight coloration on the nitrite pad. This could simply be contamination of the test from the above pad. Please see this for details:

 

[schmofam]

For filtering, I'm using the Tetra Whisper 10. I have foam around the intake for extra filtering.

Today I installed a new air pump with a battery backup for our trip as well. It definitely pumps more air than the old one. 

@nabokovfan87 - I saw that as well, you are correct about the nitrite on the test strip. In one of my attachments in a post above I show the test with the test kit.

Edited July 17, 2023 by schmofam

[schmofam]

Here is a shot with the new pump. I moved the stone to a little more central place and the pump does push out a good amount more of air.

Also, I do try to keep my nitrate levels somewhat low. What is confusing is that I have heard a lot of different opinions about how dangerous certain levels of Nitrate are. For example, the fish store that I go to doesn't even test it when you bring your water in. They say that level doesn't matter.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/17/2023 at 2:38 PM, schmofam said:

For filtering, I'm using the Tetra Whisper 10. I have foam around the intake for extra filtering.

This filter may not be big enough circulation for the tank. I can't say for certain, but if the water isn't getting enough oxygenation it would explain some of the behavior you're seeing.

How is the filter setup, are you using cartridges? Foams? Ceramic media?

The goal right now is to get maintenance under control. Please share your process for how much and how often you're changing water.  With the air stone installed it would help the oxygenation issue for the time being. In terms of a typical setup you should be able to use up to a 20G filter without much of an issue if the filter is deemed to be insufficient. (The most common sign is that food debris won't get removed from the bottom of the tank easily and very minimal surface agitation from the filter itself.)

On 7/17/2023 at 2:46 PM, schmofam said:

What is confusing is that I have heard a lot of different opinions about how dangerous certain levels of Nitrate are. For example, the fish store that I go to doesn't even test it when you bring your water in. They say that level doesn't matter.

There are research studies on this topic of the long term impact of nitrates in the water. The best guide we have right now is to keep things below 50 as a general rule.

I keep mine below 20 as much as I can, preferably below 10. This is the nitrate from fish waste, not the nitrate from your fertilizer for plants. They behave slightly differently.

Ultimately, yes, there is a lot of confusion and a lot of "repeated information" from older advice that is often shared. I tend to try to use research documentation and my own experience. I had major algae issues with nitrates getting high, so I keep them low.

[schmofam]

As this is a 10-gallon tank I thought it would be fine for this filter. I'm using foam for the intake and also the manufactures filter. I do notice that the foam intake filter needs to be rinsed out fairly often or the filter will not output much water thus minimal surface agitation.

As I said above, I test regularly and if I see levels that are not safe or if the water level is getting too low I change between 25-50% of the water, depending on how much the levels need to be corrected.

[Mmiller2001]

GH and KH are a bit low, ammonia in source water and maybe some disease. Fix those problems and see what happens.

[schmofam]

@Mmiller2001 GH is high and KH is low and I added crushed coral for it. I tested the tap today and it's in a safe range for amonia. I also test and treat the tank water upon water changes so that there is no ammonia.

Edited July 17, 2023 by schmofam

[Mmiller2001]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:42 PM, schmofam said:

@Mmiller2001 GH is high and KH is low and I added crushed coral for it. I tested the tap today and it's in a safe range. I also test and treat the tank water upon water changes so that there is no ammonia.

Yet your fish are dying. Read above.

[schmofam]

@Mmiller2001 Apologies if I sounded coarse. I appreciated you and all that have responded here with suggestions.

[Mmiller2001]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:55 PM, schmofam said:

@Mmiller2001 Apologies if I sounded coarse. I appreciated you and all that have responded here with suggestions.

No worries. Often we get in our heads and assume our “parameters are good” and we are sure the problems are something else. So we go and do all these other things instead of eliminating potential problems that are easiest to fix. I did a quick google search on platys and your GH and KH are lower than optimal for the species. Seachem Prime and similar products do not remove ammonia fyi. It’s incredibly easy to raise GH and KH, and you have added crushed coral but the KH is still not optimal and crushed coral only adds calcium. GH is comprised of Ca and Magnesium. Are you adding Magnesium? All these little factors on their own won’t necessarily kill fish outright, but having many little issues eventually adds up to a lot. 
You can get plain old epsom salts from a pharmacy (non scented) and add it to the tank (to add Mg) and raise GH. It appears the crushed coral isn’t raising the KH high enough. You may need more than you are using, but ultimately, using potassium carbonate is easier and the potassium benefits the plants.

Let’s say you make these changes, you solved the ammonia problem (maybe you chose to use bottled water) and the fish are still dying. Now it’s time to rule out disease, so on so fourth. If it’s not disease and it’s not water parameters, then it’s time to think about contaminants being introduced into the aquarium. If not that, then it’s time to source fish from somewhere else.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/17/2023 at 3:19 PM, schmofam said:

I do notice that the foam intake filter needs to be rinsed out fairly often or the filter will not output much water thus minimal surface agitation.

yes, it may take as much as 2 cleanings per week if the tank has a lot of debris in the water column.  I would still encourage you to find a way to stop using the cartridge.  You should opt for a setup where you will consistently have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrate without fear.  Having tap water with ammonia is a major concern.  It could be an indication of chloramines in the water, which would indicate a need for 2x a dose of dechlorinator minimum when you dose it.  (Fritz has a good article on this)

Another method, which may work well given the size of the tank, is to precondition the water and off-gas the ammonia.  You have an airstone into a 5G bucket with your water for a water change.  You add a bag of media to the bottom of the bucket to give the water some sort of source for bacteria to process the ammonia as well.  After a minimum of 24 hours to off-gas and that should resolve any ammonia in your tap water.  You can poke a hole in the lid of a bucket and feed the airline through. 

On 7/17/2023 at 3:19 PM, schmofam said:

As I said above, I test regularly and if I see levels that are not safe or if the water level is getting too low I change between 25-50% of the water, depending on how much the levels need to be corrected.

Just for the sake of clarity, "if the water is getting too low" and "if I see levels that are not safe" is very hard to determine how often you're changing water. The best thing for the tank is to have stability.  If you're avoiding water changes due to ammonia in the tap, then we need to ensure the filtration is oversized enough to handle the added "spike" when you do have a water change and introduce that into the tank.  At that point the tank not only has to handle the ammonia from the fish, but also from the water being added.  Because of this reason I would recommend weekly changes (or bi-weekly) of 30% of the tank.  Regardless of what testing says "it's fine" the main thing here is to be consistent and diligent with the cleanliness of the tank and the care of the fish.  This includes the prefilter and any sort of visual checks on the fish for issues.

Adding the airstone helps with oxygenation of the fish.

More constant, consistent water changes helps to alleviate the nitrate and will give you an opportunity to reduce and reduction of GH/KH over time.

This may fix basically all of your issues with these two changes, but as @Mmiller2001 said it's all about one step at a time.  Given the ammonia in the tap, I would highly recommend adding better/more media to your current filtration, increasing filtration, and/or using the off-gas technique.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

All I can say is that I have tons of fish from About Fish and have been very pleased every time I’ve been to their store. I’ll also add that I quarantine literally every fish that comes into my house and my 14 tanks. 
 

Just wanted to chime in for everyone that is trying to help that the source of the fish is most likely not the problem, in my opinion. 

[Fish Folk]

Jumping in quick. Another odd thought… do you use any lotions or cream on your hands? If so, take care to thoroughly wash off before touching your water, or touching fish food.

[DaveO]

My main concern after seeing this thread is water parameters. I consider any level of ammonia deadly to fish, if not immediately, long term stress will catch up to the fish. I thought I saw elevated nitrite also. Long term stress on the fish. I would fix those problems and then medicate the tank with the co-op trio to insure you have no parasite or fungal issues. I believe this tank should have a weekly water change schedule to change out 25% to 30% of the water. You may not feel like you overfeeding, but with that many fish plus the snail poop machine, you might be.

[Tanked]

Hi @schmofam  I can't add much to this but Its not hard to to sense your frustration.  I know it goes against the grain, but If for some reason your Whisper 10 is not up to the job, than a prefilter is making it worse.  Adding a separate sponge filter will fix two problems.  If you can make it work for you, moving the HOB to the side of tank, will set up a recirculating current across the entire length of the aquarium.  As the others mentioned, stability is important.   I second or third the idea of much smaller and more frequent water changes, preconditioned /gassed off water, and if you aren't already doing this, than deep cleaning the gravel may is in order.

I can't speak as to the quality of the LFS but the "They say that level doesn't matter." comment is a little troubling.   On your next purchase, I would test their water at home.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Here’s my last test of fish bag water vs. home tank water from the LFS in question when I got my Green Neon Tetras from them:

Bag test ^

Home tank test ^
 

The LFS has water that’s a little bit harder, has a little more buffer, and maybe a little higher pH.

[schmofam]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:42 PM, Fish Folk said:

Jumping in quick. Another odd thought… do you use any lotions or cream on your hands? If so, take care to thoroughly wash off before touching your water, or touching fish food.

I thought about this before. My hands are clean but my only thought about contamination by me is that the container I use to add water is under the bathroom sink in the cabinet. The container isn’t used for anything else but there are other things in that cabinet like a trash can and a few cleaners.

The only other long shot about contamination is that I bought the tank used. She said her roommate left so she let the fish die. I don’t know what chemicals she used to clean the tank afterwards. When I got it I cleaned it with a vinegar solution and rinsed it out well. Maybe something lingering..?

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/17/2023 at 6:04 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

Just wanted to chime in for everyone that is trying to help that the source of the fish is most likely not the problem, in my opinion. 

Agreed. In terms of the local water supply. Does your tap test any ammonia or chloramines?

On 7/17/2023 at 9:06 PM, schmofam said:

The container isn’t used for anything else but there are other things in that cabinet like a trash can and a few cleaners.

The only other long shot about contamination is that I bought the tank used. She said her roommate left so she let the fish die. I don’t know what chemicals she used to clean the tank afterwards. When I got it I cleaned it with a vinegar solution and rinsed it out well. Maybe something lingering..?

It's difficult to say with any certainty. The absolute best thing is to avoid storing it near any other chemicals. Things like lotion, shampoo, conditioner, cleaning products, are often going to have some chemicals that aren't viable around the aquarium. I store my buckets, after drying, with a lid and try to set them beside the tank or tucked away. Hopefully you're able to find a place and method that works.

Whenever I rinse something for contaminants I will do so 2-4 times and then let it air dry. Agitation of the surface of the bucket or whatever it is is your friend and let that air dry. Once it's dry, rinse it once more.

[schmofam]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:42 PM, Fish Folk said:

Jumping in quick. Another odd thought… do you use any lotions or cream on your hands? If so, take care to thoroughly wash off before touching your water, or touching fish food.

I thought about this before. My hands are clean but my only thought about contamination by me is that the container I use to add water is under the bathroom sink in the cabinet. The container isn’t used for anything else but there are other things in that cabinet like a trash can and a few cleaners.

The only other long shot about contamination is that I bought the tank used. She said her roommate left so she let the fish die. I don’t know what chemicals she used to clean the tank afterwards. When I got it I cleaned it with a vinegar solution and rinsed it out well. Maybe something lingering..?