A COLOSSAL IDIOT walks into a pet store....(an illustrated tail - intentional misspelling- of woe)

[Chris]

Well, not to de-rail @xXInkedPhoenixX's thread, but...

The biggest issue I had was expecting people to care as much as I did. My most frequent customers were tired parents buying fish for their kids, and they just wanted something quick and easy, and often they didn't want "just" a betta. Some are easily convinced into a 10 gallon tank with a group of guppies or something similar, and others barely want to shell out the money and space for a fishbowl. 

Other customers were people who'd kept fish "forever", and favored "outdated" methods - fish will grow to the size of the tank, plecos only need waste to eat, etc... Generally, these people had their minds made up and the only way I could ever get through to them was to make the sale on the fish and have little concessions. Sell them their common pleco for their 55 gallon, but then try and get them to buy a good food for it so that it doesn't starve in 6 months. Sure, the tank is too small, but being stunted is better than starving. I'm not necessarily of the opinion that all the old methods were bad, I just think they've been applied in situations they weren't intended for, and that we often have better methods now with modern tech.

My favorite customers were those who didn't know much but were open to learning. Nothing made me happier than selling a 5 or 10 gallon tank to someone for a betta or a trio of guppies/endlers and seeing them walk out with Prime, Stablility/Safe start, an Aquaclear filter sponge instead of replacement filter pads, live plants, and a heater if needed. They'd come back in a few days or a week for fish (it's hard to convince people to wait longer - hence the bacteria starters), and I'd be able to help them out again by starting them with a few fish and making plans to add more down the road if they wanted. Over time, those are the customers you forge relationships with and they really do pay off, IMO.

I also had some terrible experiences... I once had a guy bring a few fish in and demanded that we take them. Company policy was that we didn't take in fish - when I told him that, he told me I'd take them or he'd dump them down a storm drain. So, I took them... and then he asked me to buy more fish. Basically, the entire encounter was us yelling each other until I gave him what he wanted. It was awful - and that wasn't even the worst of it. There were certain interactions I had that got so bad I don't even feel right about sharing them on a family-friendly forum.

Basically, you'll get a huge range of customers, and each day will be different from the last. Just don't let anything get you down too much, stand by what you think is right, and pick your battles. You can't change everything over night - pick something you want to change, and slowly start working towards a goal. You don't want to be dismissed as an overeager idealist - if you can show you can make a positive change financially viable and then try get policy changed, that'll get you farther than anything else in my experience.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Chris honestly I wouldn't call your last post a derailment at all- this thread was started because I walked into a pet store. This brings to the table many things that have been brought up here (and some yet to be addressed) and I think are valid and very relevant to this forum- rescuing, rehabilitating, judging what you have the capacity to care for, treating illnesses in fish, here specifically Betta which to me are notoriously difficult, pet store protocols, customer service and ethics, even the topic of breeding fish that are succeptible to illness (like super long finned fish) or genetically engineered fish like GloFish. This thread has even made me think a lot about all of those things- and if people are learning anything at all from it- well that was my intention from the start. I didn't have to say anything about my idiotic decision- and if things go horribly wrong with it at some point I will stand bare to some judgement- may even be judged now- but I think despite that it opens up some really good discussions. 🙂 

[Chris]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:13 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

but I think despite that it opens up some really good discussions. 🙂 

It certainly does!

If nothing else, having a place to share opinions in an open setting where the conversation can be open and fluid is a nice change from the disease forum (where people need help with important issues, like, yesterday) or other forums (where I was once berated by a mod for for mentioning I was enjoying a cup off coffee while doing tank maintenance since it wasn't strictly related to fish).

We're nerms - fish freaks, yes, but we also like normal people things! Sometimes.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:37 PM, Chris said:

for mentioning I was enjoying a cup off coffee while doing tank maintenance since it wasn't strictly related to fish).

I have no problem grabbing my coffee cup with my fish tank hand and taking a swig. 🤣 Gotta wait for the water to drain anyway so may as well do something else I enjoy too. 

And I think someone said in this thread or another they like fish tank maintenance. I do too. I’m proud to provide a good quality of living to my gang.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

That was probably me @Chick-In-Of-TheSea (the enjoying maintenance thing) but on @AllFishNoBrakes's post about what we love and dislike about the hobby

I'm a bit of a freak but I'll let the flag fly!

[Chris]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:28 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I have no problem grabbing my coffee cup with my fish tank arm and taking a swig. 🤣 Gotta wait for the water to drain anyway so may as well do something I enjoy. 

And I think someone said in this thread or another they like fish tank maintenance. I do too. I’m proud to provide a good quality of living to my gang.

I'm the same way! I spend fairly little time just sitting and watching fish - I spend at least 30 minutes in the fishroom every day (usually an hour or two), but I'm usually doing something. Feeding fish, cleaning messes, removing nerm glitter (duckweed), etc. I like doing it to keep my mind occupied.

[Minanora]

I am excited for the day that I tell my boss that I'm cutting my hours. Sure, I'll have another baby, but I can spend more time with my tanks and just relax. Yes, relax, with what will be a 5 year old and a newborn. 😆 It could happen!

I just want to spend time with my fish and my family. 😊

This thread turned me into a Betta lover. 💚

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/17/2022 at 11:28 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I’m proud to provide a good quality of living to my gang.

They do say that the aquarium hobby is about who can keep fish 🐠 in a glass tank the best😏

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Ok peeps, update time!

Today I had an early shift so nobody got breakfast, I'm rolling out at o-dark-thirty the least I can do is let somebody in my house sleep in! Today was also water change day so why don't we see what's going on...

Purple Dumbo, so far a fan favorite is a good girl- she had her betta pellet dinner and she got a betta leaf today so if she needs to relax there's somewhere she can. No longer medicated but for some aquarium salt and IAL water.

Even since day one I've not been too concerned about her- on that day in a couple of hours in QT with me she was SIGNIFICANTLY better than she was in the store, and while she displayed some symptoms of what I thought was swim bladder even by that evening she was swimming and acting like a normal little fish. She'll stay with me until a good amount of QT is over then we'll have to decide where her new home is. But you need to take a look at day 1 verses now- I mean, what a little beauty- why was she still at the store?!?:

Then we have little GloBetta. Also no longer medicated but for aquarium salt and IAL water. I hope over time she gets more of her red back in her tail but today after her betta pellet dinner and her water change she was all over her tank. She had a betta leaf but I moved it towards the top of her tank for a place to rest. I'm so glad she made it this far- I was worried about her due to the condition of her container but I'm very pleased with her progress.

White Twintail Halfmoon also progressing, no longer medicated but also still utilizing aquarium salt and IAL water. I can't believe that in late September he was just laying on his side. Now he happily eats his betta pellets- can move all over his tank, and takes his water change flow like a champ. I still think it will be more time until his true colors come out but I really think he's going to be a stunner. I think he is now anyway: 

Lastly we have a very good update for Red Crowntail today. He's still using the walls as crutches and he will still float up to one side when he's not concentrating but today more than ever he came away from the side of the tank to hunt his food! I gave him some Metroplex soaked bloodworms so those were fed by tweezer but I floated a few daphnia just to judge and away he went and did really well! No significant change to his discoloration but I'm really proud of the little guy. 

I appreciate the ongoing support and encouragement the forum is giving the 5 of us. Thanks for rooting for the little ones!

Edited October 19, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
Typos are lame

[Minanora]

I've been thinking about your patients a lot today. I'm happy to see this update! You're doing a great job! I'm rooting for little red! 🎉

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/17/2022 at 9:35 AM, Chris said:

Totally agree here - I actually think the cups could theoretically be viable if they were double the size and the stores were kept much warmer, as long as there was a reasonable number of cups to maintain. My store only had around 50 slots for cups, but we were consistently in the top 5 highest selling stores in the South in live animals, so we'd have another 50-100 cups in the back waiting to be stocked on a shelf. On water change day, it would literally take the entire department working on it all day from 6 AM till we closed and left at 10 PM to get it done if we were busy with customers and well stocked. Some days we simply didn't finish.

What the big box store / industry doesn't realize is that you're literally making it so much harder on yourself by using cups. Genuinely.  Part of my last job was to make the job / product easier and to stop wasting time doing things that didn't need to be done.  Go to any pet shop with a betta / cup wall and ask them what the most time consuming part of their care is? 

Answer will always be: Water changes, cleaning the tanks, etc.

It does not matter what it is, that is literally the most time consuming part of the industry.  So if the focus then is on how you make that time easier, the actual task of completing that maintenance easier, then that should be the focus and will save the company money.  I like the setup ACO has right now, especially for a store and for the customer.  You change water in the sumps / larger chambers or you have a valve that drains the sump.  Then you just have to focus on cleaning the tanks themselves.  You can clean them very easily with a turkey baster and a specimen container / cart type of setup and you don't break your back nearly as much or handle tanks/cups as much as you would with the older methods.

Then someone like me comes in and designs it to make that actual task possible, tests it, creates it, makes it happen, gets feedback, then releases it.  I'm pretty sure the big box store hasn't changed much for me since I was a small kid and walmart had their fish tanks.  It's crazy to me that companies, especially the biggest ones, just don't really make things easier on themselves.....

I am sure the store near me spent a lot more time and money researching how much extra $ the speaker that plays ocean sounds when shopping would do, than on the betta rack and studying how to make the actual care for the animals easier.  I HOPE NOT, but I'm absolutely certain that has to be the case.

/rant.  Sorry for the long wordy post.  It's such a critical topic for the hobby moving forward and with passionate, caring, dedicated hobbyists like we have on this forum, let's all hope we can do better.

On 10/17/2022 at 8:13 AM, Chris said:

Just food for thought - when I went into that manger position, one of the department awards that was passed on to me was a trophy from 2015 given to us because the store had "only" lost 15% of received fish in a year. So out of every 100 fish, 15 died. By the time I left that position two years later, we had managed to get it down to 6%, which I think is still too high. The way those stores are designed from the foundation up makes it hard to do a good job with animal care, unfortunately. All the extra steps I implemented with the bettas and other animals caused me to get in hot water several times, and it wasn't until we'd get our annual loss reports on animals that they'd actually allow me to implement new policy.

So True!  The mindshare always seems to go for marketing and accounting on the biggest companies when so many little, simple, easy things can be done to help the entire company in both of those avenues.

On 10/17/2022 at 10:03 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I always had the opposite experience with my high-end retail job, I was able to give the customer the information for THEM to make informed decisions that work for them, their budget and their needs, if they came back to the store they always thanked me and even sought me out for other purchases.

Just love this.  I wish this was the mindset for so many places and so many employees.  Especially from the top down!  Needless to say, that quote, those lines is the reason we all are here on this forum.  Because that's literally why we all enjoy Cory doing exactly what he does.  "Good food takes time" and those words apply to literally everything.

On 10/18/2022 at 7:19 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Purple Dumbo, so far a fan favorite is a good girl

She is my favorite too! Can't say why.  That tail pattern is awesome! 

As always, wonderful stuff and I'm really enjoying seeing the small updates and progress.  It will be a seriously helpful thread for so many betta keepers.

Edited October 19, 2022 by nabokovfan87
post bugged out, posted twice, didn't load the page.

[Chris]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:01 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

/rant.  Sorry for the long wordy post.  It's such a critical topic for the hobby moving forward and with passionate, caring, dedicated hobbyists like we have on this forum, let's all hope we can do better.

I agree! I hope that as things continue to move forward we'll see recirculating systems become more common. I do wonder if we'll see animal care improve as prices continue to rise - Just five years ago, the most expensive betta at a local petsmart was under $15. Now, that same betta is $19.99, and they offer some varieties for $29.99. I'm sure the store's cost hasn't risen nearly as dramatically per fish, but even still, the average consumer's view on a "product" (animal) does shift pretty significantly as prices rise, and they expect premium quality and care because they're paying a premium price.

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/19/2022 at 2:55 PM, Chris said:

15. Now, that same betta is $19.99, and they offer some varieties for $29.99.

I’ve also been experiencing that ! Inflation may have a part to play, but cost of living going up also plays a part I expect.

 

On 10/19/2022 at 2:55 PM, Chris said:

premium quality and care because they're paying a premium price.

If only!!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

You guys ever watch the bettas on Aqua Huna livestream?  Pretty neat.  Stream is up 9am-12am (Pacific)

https://aquahuna.com/collections/betta/products/choose-your-betta-livestream

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/19/2022 at 3:25 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

You guys ever watch the bettas on Aqua Huna livestream?  Pretty neat.  Stream is up 9am-12am (Pacific)

https://aquahuna.com/collections/betta/products/choose-your-betta-livestream

I guess it’s their USP (unique selling point)

[drewzero1]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:44 PM, Minanora said:

I am excited for the day that I tell my boss that I'm cutting my hours. Sure, I'll have another baby, but I can spend more time with my tanks and just relax. Yes, relax, with what will be a 5 year old and a newborn. 😆 It could happen!

I just want to spend time with my fish and my family. 😊

This thread turned me into a Betta lover. 💚

I'll be doing that too when we have our second child, around the holidays. I'm very nervous and excited. I'll let you know how that goes!

I've never really been into Bettas, but this thread is making me reconsider. These are some remarkable transformations, @xXInkedPhoenixX!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@drewzero1 I get it- Bettas aren't for everybody. Personally as I've mentioned here, I find them difficult to care for- when they go downhill they seem to go fast. This sucks because otherwise they have pretty awesome, individual personalities. I think most of it is indeed breeding- people who do it responding to demand for more color, different patterns, longer fins. These all lead to them being bred for those things and not for health (like say, bulldogs- bred for looks not for the benefit of the breed- causing things like breathing or mobility issues). I liked that they seem to be going towards shorter finned varieties (plakat) which I felt would eliminate the constant issues with long male Betta fins- but lets be frank- breeding fish like this the way they are going will likely always have problems.

Then we have the issue of care. Most of the time they are kept solo which frankly is the easiest because again they are more prone to illness so having tankmates can sometimes be a gamble. For a lot of fish keepers- a solo fish is "boring"- you mean I have to dedicate a whole tank to one fish!? However at least with Betta- it can be a 5 gallon minimum tank and not a 50 like a goldfish. There are options for Betta Sororities now- which interests me but that would likely require in my mind at least a 20 to give these territorial fish their space- so you may have to anticipate some aggression.

You also have to consider in order to keep them properly they need (per my research) for optimal health 80-82 degree water and high humidity because they breathe air. Not a lot of species prefer that temperature so it narrows down your possibilities greatly. You also need a tank that can provide that humidity- tight fitting lids, some people use plastic wrap I've heard. The higher temp water helps with the humidity, lower temps will not. They also do better in tanks with tannins- this is no problem for me now because I do this will all my tanks and can see the benefits- but not everyone likes tinted water. 

So now I have these 4 and with the criteria above, I'll be honest- none of the available options are the "best" options. I'm considering keeping GloBetta because- sadly I probably won't have any takers on her- and I have to say I don't understand it- but I think she's awesome and has a really great personality. However, my option for her is my Flex9- she'll have lots of tankmates but the temps won't be entirely optimal for her- however it is my warmest tank and will be high 70s to low 80s a lot of the time. My Mum's tank will be great for one, the temps should be good as I've put a flat heater, but there are tankmates, will they bug them or vice versa? I'll put feelers out for other fish keepers if need be- but my other thoughts are for a divided tank, that is heated, for whatever 2 might be left- this can also pose issues- stress (if they see each other too much), illness, having to divide a small tank- then of course temp and humidity. 

They're "fussy" fish to say the least. For a fish keeper like me I put them in the "difficult" category- but I really like them a lot. What's funny for me is that I don't really like them specifically for the looks, I'm actually more attracted to them for their personalities- they are just amazing- and no 2 are alike. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/19/2022 at 5:55 AM, Chris said:

I do wonder if we'll see animal care improve as prices continue to rise - Just five years ago, the most expensive betta at a local petsmart was under $15. Now, that same betta is $19.99, and they offer some varieties for $29.99. I'm sure the store's cost hasn't risen nearly as dramatically per fish, but even still, the average consumer's view on a "product" (animal) does shift pretty significantly as prices rise, and they expect premium quality and care because they're paying a premium price.

I did notice that too.... they added the glo-betta to the left side of the display and then prices looked exactly like what I was seeing online from hobbyists and sellers who would let you pick your betta.  Maybe that is how they view it? Or they just did a study that said, this is the average price so let's do that?

Hard to say.   I keep waiting for Aquahuna to have one that catches my eye and staring at my room on where the tank would go 😂.

On 10/19/2022 at 7:10 AM, drewzero1 said:

I've never really been into Bettas, but this thread is making me reconsider. These are some remarkable transformations, @xXInkedPhoenixX!

Have you ever kept a bolivian ram?

On 10/19/2022 at 8:05 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I liked that they seem to be going towards shorter finned varieties (plakat) which I felt would eliminate the constant issues with long male Betta fins- but lets be frank- breeding fish like this the way they are going will likely always have problems.

Me too! Very cool to see. 

On 10/19/2022 at 8:05 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

They're "fussy" fish to say the least. For a fish keeper like me I put them in the "difficult" category- but I really like them a lot. What's funny for me is that I don't really like them specifically for the looks, I'm actually more attracted to them for their personalities- they are just amazing- and no 2 are alike. 

Well said.  Sometimes the fish in themselves is the reward and not a breeding colony or an amazing tank.  Bettas are the original "centerpiece" and they have gotten a lot of eyes on them for better or worse.  The pop out and stand out against so many tank designs and that's before you get to even know them and how they are. 

My grandpa was going through his cancer treatments and every day he would wake up and talk to his fish and feed em.  It was so nice to hear and see that happen despite everything he was going through at the time.  Bettas will always be a special fish, and hopefully things improve so more people can enjoy them in future.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hello everyone! Today was water change day (for ALL of my tanks and had to work on an Otocinclus project) so I spent a few hours on tanks. Everyone ate bloodworms for breakfast- Crowntail got medicated ones as he has all week. All the patients got water changes. Here's today's update:

Purple Dumbo- still great! Last night I'd stopped by my parents house and discussed the patients with my Mum. I showed her some pictures and surprise, surprise she wants Dumbo. I figured she'd pick her- and that's ok, I think she'd be happy in Mum's tank. I am still having Mum come over and see them all in person- because sometimes a picture isn't enough- at least I think most of it is their personality- I don't expect her decision to change however- Dumbo is stupid cute:

Then GloBetta still doing great! She'll likely move into my Flex9 early next month- hopefully she'll like her new roommates and vice versa. I think she'll be a great addition and she'll stand out in that tank- it's kinda dark and bright fish are best (sometimes I can't see the Ember Tetras!). So her glowing genes will be awesome there!

White Twintail Halfmoon, I was kinda hoping Mum would pick him. I really think he's be a standout in Mum's tank- I'm not sure how readily Purple will be seen- though she really seems to make a point of it. It's ok. Not sure what will happen with him yet. I think once Purple and GloBetta move to their permanent homes, White will stay on the desk where the girls are now until we find out what the ultimate outcome with Red will be. 

Then of course Red Crowntail. He's about the same- he can swim a little off the sides still. Today he got his water change with the 2nd dose of Expel-P as @Odd Duck's treatment plan recommended. I just keep hoping to wake up to even more improvement every day. I think if Red makes it a divided tank with White and Red may have to happen. Time will tell. 

So we plug on for now as we are, maybe another week in QT for the girls and then they get to move on and hopefully live long lives in other tanks. White and Red will be in QT until the next decisions are made and see what Red's outlook is. Hopefully a good one!

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:26 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Hello everyone! Today was water change day (for ALL of my tanks and had to work on an Otocinclus project) so I spent a few hours on tanks. Everyone ate bloodworms for breakfast- Crowntail got medicated ones as he has all week. All the patients got water changes. Here's today's update:

Purple Dumbo- still great! Last night I'd stopped by my parents house and discussed the patients with my Mum. I showed her some pictures and surprise, surprise she wants Dumbo. I figured she'd pick her- and that's ok, I think she'd be happy in Mum's tank. I am still having Mum come over and see them all in person- because sometimes a picture isn't enough- at least I think most of it is their personality- I don't expect her decision to change however- Dumbo is stupid cute:

Then GloBetta still doing great! She'll likely move into my Flex9 early next month- hopefully she'll like her new roommates and vice versa. I think she'll be a great addition and she'll stand out in that tank- it's kinda dark and bright fish are best (sometimes I can't see the Ember Tetras!). So her glowing genes will be awesome there!

White Twintail Halfmoon, I was kinda hoping Mum would pick him. I really think he's be a standout in Mum's tank- I'm not sure how readily Purple will be seen- though she really seems to make a point of it. It's ok. Not sure what will happen with him yet. I think once Purple and GloBetta move to their permanent homes, White will stay on the desk where the girls are now until we find out what the ultimate outcome with Red will be. 

Then of course Red Crowntail. He's about the same- he can swim a little off the sides still. Today he got his water change with the 2nd dose of Expel-P as @Odd Duck's treatment plan recommended. I just keep hoping to wake up to even more improvement every day. I think if Red makes it a divided tank with White and Red may have to happen. Time will tell. 

So we plug on for now as we are, maybe another week in QT for the girls and then they get to move on and hopefully live long lives in other tanks. White and Red will be in QT until the next decisions are made and see what Red's outlook is. Hopefully a good one!

It’s nice to see that the girls are on their way to a nice home 👍 

[Minanora]

The halfmoon is so pretty.

Come on red!!! Get better!!! 🎉

[TheSwissAquarist]

Get betta?😜

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Does…. Does this mean the end of our purple dumbo updates? 😭

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea, well she'll be with me here for another week then I'll transport her to Mum's house. It won't entirely be the end as I see my Mum rather regularly- but her story may end here shortly after and move to my tank thread with occasional updates. This thread has to end some time. 🙃 Hopefully with a happy ending for all. 

My Mum really loves her tank and fish so she'll take good care of her. I built the tank so I'm confident she'll (Purple) be happy. Can't guarantee she'll have an awesome name though 🤣 I've always kind of rolled my eyes at my Mum's names. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/21/2022 at 8:33 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

she'll (Purple) be happy.

That’s all that’s important: A beautiful fish saved from mistreatment and given a decent home after being nursed back to health.