Have Glow fish gone to far?

[Brandon p]

Have glo-fish gone to far or is it ok? At first I was really against them. I personally don’t like them but who cares. If you like them great I’m sure we will still get along. I do have an issue now that a have a nephew. I have two sons but they liked the odd ball fish. My nephew loves animals and is starting to love aquariums, fish turtles, and poison  dart frogs. When I walked in and saw one of my favorite fish(silver dollar)(this is a pic from insta)and it was yellow I almost put my foot in my mouth. Instead of being happy a young fish keeper was taking care of his fish and very proud of them I was thinking this is bad. I didn’t say anything about the that fish, but we did talk about his fish. For any of you that have talked to a 6 years old about fish you may be surprised or may not. He know all about his fish. He had 3 for the glo-dollars, neons, and a few panda cories I gave him. He know about where the fish lived in the wild, why he thought they went together in the tank and then he told me why they made flo fish. I was shocked because most adults present company not included of course. I ask why he got them? He told me and I feel like the lowest person. He said”uncle Brandon” it looks like your fish. I really felt bad and proud at the same time. I had a yellow pigeon discus and he wanted the same one by Mom said no. I still wont buy a Glo-Fish I wont give anyone a hard time about them. If a glo-fish starts someone to keep fish I’m good with that. The more fish keepers there are the more power we have as a group.  This is not just a narrative I want to know your opinion. Please remember manners or we won’t be allowed to these conversations, No hate.

[TheSwissAquarist]

I don't have a degree in ethics, but (in my opinion) GloFish are fine as long as they're kept in aquaria. However if they escape into the wild (e.g. Pythons in the Everglades), their creators and vendors must assume full responsibility because they knowingly created that fish.

[Scapexghost]

I think about it this way:

Imagine two people, lets call them Tim and Dave. Tim was born with a severely twisted spine, making him half the height of a normal person and almost completely round. He was born with mishapen feet, affecting his abilty to walk. Tim also has a large growth on his forehead that is slowly growing over his eyes, which will someday make him completely blind. Now Dave is like any other person, but his skin is neon yellow and it glows under floresent light. Which person has a higher quality of living?

Now Tim and Dave aren't actually people, Tim is a fancy goldfish and Dave is the glo dollar.

The glo dollar may be a crime against nature but it doesn't seem to mind. It will live its life just as any silver dollar would, blissfully ignorant of what a freak it is. 

Are glofish unethical? Only you could decide that. We can debate if keeping fish in captivity at all is ethical. To me though, its far less unethical than a lot of things in the hobby. I'm not saying fancy goldfish are unethical, but if they aren't then neither are glofish. Does it make a difference if the goldfish was selectively bread and the glofish was genetically modified? Well, I doubt the fish cares.

Perhaps yoy don't think fancy goldfish are ethical either, but what about all the other fish whose appearances have been artificially modified? Is injecting a protien inti a fish worse than a thousand generations of inbreeding? 

[Marc]

When I first saw them I thought they were just for little kids and would not want those "fake fish" but now I think they look cool, I don't have any in my tanks yet, but plan to try them out soon for a little color balance.  I think it's far better than breeding fish for a deformity that it is aesthetically pleasing to a human. I have no problem with most genetic modifications, adding color to a fish will have no detrimental effect to the fish in an aquarium. It might even be better than selective breeding (likely inbreeding). 

I could see some who want to keep a natural aquarium with natural looking fish, there are a lot of fish that would be off their list including almost all guppies and endlers. I'm not in that boat, but more power to them.

I think its just preference as long as it isn't harming the fish. I have more of a problem with something like the Gold Roseline Barb where a certain % of are blind. While a very cool looking fish, I balked at getting them once I learned that the side effect was blind fish. Hope they can reduce that deformity some day.

[Flumpweesel]

Or is the issue with the trademarking fish and the sterilisation of them to prevent home breeding.

This is a worry as imagine if this became the norm and home breeding became illegal. (There was a lot of debate around this in the seed world )

Glo fish are illegal in the UK and EU so I've never seen a Glo fish. The science is interesting and the background of using them to trace water causes (would need to sterile for that) is interesting to. I imagine your nephew though this was pretty cool.

I think a cheap exciting to look at hardy fish is a great way of bringing kids into the hobby but should we be teaching about the beauty of natural world I suppose they are a stepping stone fish. I would have probably wanted them in neon decade but I was I kid then and glow in the dark was/is cool.  

I have no idea how many of the fish I keep are in a wild state or selectivity bred i think keeping an eye on the heritage of what we have is almost impossible.

[Brandon p]

On 6/19/2022 at 5:26 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

I don't have a degree in ethics, but (in my opinion) GloFish are fine as long as they're kept in aquaria. However if they escape into the wild (e.g. Pythons in the Everglades), their creators and vendors must assume full responsibility because they knowingly created that fish.

I agree. There is already a huge problem with most tropical fish in the Everglades and through out big parts of Florida. I do fish( sorry if that bothers anyone)and I have caught, Pacu, Oscar’s, one piranha, Mayan cichlids, tilapia, clown fish and that jus a list of  bigger fish. In ditch’s you can find smaller aquarium fish like angelfish, common plecos are destroing lake edges costing millions in repairs and the repairs only last about 10 years. So the Industry  as a whole should bears responsibility. Glo-fish would sure be able to get a finger pointed at them but are more responsible than other importers and breeders. I don’t think this would be an advantage to the fish though. I think it would make them easy targets. I use a a similar color lure when fishing the Everglades. I do think you are right.

On 6/19/2022 at 5:59 AM, Scapexghost said:

I think about it this way:

Imagine two people, lets call them Tim and Dave. Tim was born with a severely twisted spine, making him half the height of a normal person and almost completely round. He was born with mishapen feet, affecting his abilty to walk. Tim also has a large growth on his forehead that is slowly growing over his eyes, which will someday make him completely blind. Now Dave is like any other person, but his skin is neon yellow and it glows under floresent light. Which person has a higher quality of living?

Now Tim and Dave aren't actually people, Tim is a fancy goldfish and Dave is the glo dollar.

The glo dollar may be a crime against nature but it doesn't seem to mind. It will live its life just as any silver dollar would, blissfully ignorant of what a freak it is. 

Are glofish unethical? Only you could decide that. We can debate if keeping fish in captivity at all is ethical. To me though, its far less unethical than a lot of things in the hobby. I'm not saying fancy goldfish are unethical, but if they aren't then neither are glofish. Does it make a difference if the goldfish was selectively bread and the glofish was genetically modified? Well, I doubt the fish cares.

Perhaps yoy don't think fancy goldfish are ethical either, but what about all the other fish whose appearances have been artificially modified? Is injecting a protien inti a fish worse than a thousand generations of inbreeding? 

There is nothing to add great explanation. 

[Brandon p]

On 6/19/2022 at 6:57 AM, Marc said:

When I first saw them I thought they were just for little kids and would not want those "fake fish" but now I think they look cool, I don't have any in my tanks yet, but plan to try them out soon for a little color balance.  I think it's far better than breeding fish for a deformity that it is aesthetically pleasing to a human. I have no problem with most genetic modifications, adding color to a fish will have no detrimental effect to the fish in an aquarium. It might even be better than selective breeding (likely inbreeding). 

I could see some who want to keep a natural aquarium with natural looking fish, there are a lot of fish that would be off their list including almost all guppies and endlers. I'm not in that boat, but more power to them.

I think its just preference as long as it isn't harming the fish. I have more of a problem with something like the Gold Roseline Barb where a certain % of are blind. While a very cool looking fish, I balked at getting them once I learned that the side effect was blind fish. Hope they can reduce that deformity some day.

People have changed animals for there benefits for a long time. Selective breeding has happened with animals an crops has happened in one form or another and now genetic are happening. I’m ok with most of it. They will probably get the blindness worked out eventually but it takes time. Even when you watch videos of breeds that have breed for a special trait. I watched about a breed that worked on breeding a special color( it was a lucky color in one part of the world). His fish are expensive but this man spend his whole life culling and breeding the best. I do have some knowledge about Selective breeding with chickens. This does apply to many other animals as well. Humans do not do well with inbreeding I think that is pretty clear and a scientific fact. Many animals don’t have the negative affects of inbreeding in the short term. Many years of inbreeding in most animal populations would cause negative effects. We often think of animal inbreeding for a generation or two or 3 won’t harm the populations. It is common to breed 2nd generations back to the first gen father. Sounds bad if you think of them as people as chickens it can Beneficial. What mean is I hope the get the blindness worked out.

[Brandon p]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:21 AM, Flumpweesel said:

Or is the issue with the trademarking fish and the sterilisation of them to prevent home breeding.

This is a worry as imagine if this became the norm and home breeding became illegal. (There was a lot of debate around this in the seed world )

Glo fish are illegal in the UK and EU so I've never seen a Glo fish. The science is interesting and the background of using them to trace water causes (would need to sterile for that) is interesting to. I imagine your nephew though this was pretty cool.

I think a cheap exciting to look at hardy fish is a great way of bringing kids into the hobby but should we be teaching about the beauty of natural world I suppose they are a stepping stone fish. I would have probably wanted them in neon decade but I was I kid then and glow in the dark was/is cool.  

I have no idea how many of the fish I keep are in a wild state or selectivity bred i think keeping an eye on the heritage of what we have is almost impossible.

I would not have any issues with the us following the UK and EU. I don’t like trademarking living things. I feel the same with farmers having to buy trademarked seed. I think what they were meant to do with finding Pollution( I’m being general) is a good thing. I don’t think the hobby would be hurt if they did appeared to tomorrow but that would but a question @Zenzoor Cory could answer. May the are very popular. My LFS does sell them. This is my opinion so not one takes my comments as yours I do think that most of these are bought by beginners. For my nephew if he could have he would have gotten a discus but his mom was not ready for that. So it was as close as they had where the went. I was asked. I have to admit we had four about 20 years ago when it was just the tetras. To get a second tank she had to have some. I guess but most fish that are not wild caught are selectively breed. I have to cull fish that I can’t sell because of a deformity. I can’t keep every fish that has some problems. 

[Katherine]

I don't think glofish are sterilized. Or at least they're not doing a good job at it if they're attempting it. More than once our local petsmart has has 'oops' fry that they weren't allowed to sell. Which I think is ridiculous.

Aside from not being allowed to sell your own fish I don't think the actual creation of them is unethical any more than lots of other fish that have already been brought up.

I do not personally care for glofish, but I do have several in my tank right now. We were given a tank of them several years ago when a friend had bought them for her kids and then got sick of the upkeep. My kids love them so much that as we've had losses we've replaced them with more glofish, but I think I'm to the point where I won't be doing that anymore.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Katherine

[Brian]

I think if no harm is done to the animals-   Then whatever it takes to get that next person into the hobby …….. Different Strokes for Different Folks I guess.    

[lefty o]

at this point, it is what it is. the can has been opened, and cant be closed again easily.  im not a fan of them for a few reasons, but obviously someone is or they wouldnt sell.

[Brandon p]

@Katherineyou are right glo fish are not said to be Sterile. In the original Scientific one where. It is not illegal to sell and that breed as they are trademarked. Danios I’ve heard are the best breeding glo-fish. The company that owns the trade made is know for suing people that breed or sell if they are not from them. I think your opinion is pretty common. I think most kids grow out of them but if they don’t it doesn’t matter. I think I’m to the point where I would rather see glo-fish than rare or endangered wild fish. I used think I had some moral issue with them when I was young(high school) thanks for the opinion. 

@lefty o all I can says is your right. That simple.

[Torrey]

On 6/19/2022 at 3:13 AM, Brandon p said:

Have glo-fish gone to far or is it ok? At first I was really against them. I personally don’t like them but who cares. If you like them great I’m sure we will still get along. I do have an issue now that a have a nephew. I have two sons but they liked the odd ball fish. My nephew loves animals and is starting to love aquariums, fish turtles, and poison  dart frogs. When I walked in and saw one of my favorite fish(silver dollar)(this is a pic from insta)and it was yellow I almost put my foot in my mouth. Instead of being happy a young fish keeper was taking care of his fish and very proud of them I was thinking this is bad. I didn’t say anything about the that fish, but we did talk about his fish. For any of you that have talked to a 6 years old about fish you may be surprised or may not. He know all about his fish. He had 3 for the glo-dollars, neons, and a few panda cories I gave him. He know about where the fish lived in the wild, why he thought they went together in the tank and then he told me why they made flo fish. I was shocked because most adults present company not included of course. I ask why he got them? He told me and I feel like the lowest person. He said”uncle Brandon” it looks like your fish. I really felt bad and proud at the same time. I had a yellow pigeon discus and he wanted the same one by Mom said no. I still wont buy a Glo-Fish I wont give anyone a hard time about them. If a glo-fish starts someone to keep fish I’m good with that. The more fish keepers there are the more power we have as a group.  This is not just a narrative I want to know your opinion. Please remember manners or we won’t be allowed to these conversations, No hate.

I've taken the biomed ethics, the research ethics, and am surrounded by people who take Stewardship very, very seriously.

Your nephew is the reason I support GloFish. I will continue to criticize the greed and entitlement of a CEO who thinks a company can "own" DNA, but that lack of ethics is on the CEO and the board members. Not a healthy fish in a kid's tank, and definitely not on the kid.

I'm 100% with Cory on this one: 

We have a responsibility to be better stewards, and the first step to being better stewards is centering the needs of the next generation. Otherwise, what's the point?

We don't actually "own" anything, we are stewards for the next 7 generations. If the secret to get the next generation to see all of nature as a relative is a GloFish in a tank as a nightlight? I will find people who will help that happen. I was getting discouraged, long-covid wears us down. Cory helped me remember why any of us are here.

"If I can choose anything, I choose to be kind"

[Tanked]

Fun fact: A 2014 study reported that there are 180+ examples of natural biofluorescence in fish. 

Is there any real difference between keeping neon Silver Dollars or boldly colored and patterned Discus?  Scientists created the animals that we refer to as GLoFish.  Breeders selectively breed other fish for sale and cull the ones that don't make the grade. Ethically the scientist  hold the high ground (IMO).  Having adopted one, I can appreciate the novelty of having one or two in with the all naturally fish, but I am not likely to buy one.  Consider the GloFish to be seeds.  If they cause an interest in the hobby to germinate, that is a good thing.  Your nephew's appreciation of your choice of fish is also a good thing!