Mailing Fish

[Cinnebuns]

I have been researching and planning safe ways to mail fish. I have mailed clutches already but that's easy. I'm pretty sure I have a good grasp of how to package them to maximize the chances of the fish surviving the journey. 

Today, while mailing out an egg clutch, the guy at the post office brought it to my attention that they sometimes have very specific requirements for live animals. His example was that if you mail a queen bee, she has to have 10 worker bees with her. Not 9, not 11, but exactly 10. With his limited time, and rude supervisor telling him to stop talking to me, he wasn't able to look into the specifics for fish for me. Is there any that people know of?  

[Guppysnail]

Usps no specific requirements other than no leaks. Next day guaranteed EXCLUDES LIVE ANIMALS. I know. I had 2 shipments a day late. No refund on late delivery. Response was from several supervisors as I went up the chain because my post guy did not know this and told me live animals were included and that I was due a refund and he had no idea why they were late.
usps response

 “We do not guarantee next day delivery on live animals.  We ship them as we see fit and they are not covered as refundable or insured for doa due to lateness of delivery”

ups and fed ex I do not know. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/6/2022 at 7:14 PM, Guppysnail said:

Usps no specific requirements other than no leaks. Next day guaranteed EXCLUDES LIVE ANIMALS. I know. I had 2 shipments a day late. No refund on late delivery. Response was from several supervisors as I went up the chain because my post guy did not know this and told me live animals were included and that I was due a refund and he had no idea why they were late.
usps response

 “We do not guarantee next day delivery on live animals.  We ship them as we see fit and they are not covered as refundable or insured for doa due to lateness of delivery”

ups and fed ex I do not know. 

That's confusing. So they will guarantee next day unless it's a live animal?  That makes no sense. 

[Guppysnail]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:43 PM, Cinnebuns said:

That's confusing. So they will guarantee next day unless it's a live animal?  That makes no sense. 

That’s correct.   

[Torrey]

On 6/6/2022 at 6:14 PM, Guppysnail said:

Usps no specific requirements other than no leaks. Next day guaranteed EXCLUDES LIVE ANIMALS. I know. I had 2 shipments a day late. No refund on late delivery. Response was from several supervisors as I went up the chain because my post guy did not know this and told me live animals were included and that I was due a refund and he had no idea why they were late.
usps response

 “We do not guarantee next day delivery on live animals.  We ship them as we see fit and they are not covered as refundable or insured for doa due to lateness of delivery”

ups and fed ex I do not know. 

What?

Refunds on everything *except* live animals? That's.... oof.

That's also not how it used to be.....

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:22 PM, Guppysnail said:

That’s correct.   

So what they are like "this is a live animal. Put it on the next shipment eventho there's space."  Like wtf?

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 6/6/2022 at 5:11 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I have been researching and planning safe ways to mail fish. I have mailed clutches already but that's easy. I'm pretty sure I have a good grasp of how to package them to maximize the chances of the fish surviving the journey. 

Today, while mailing out an egg clutch, the guy at the post office brought it to my attention that they sometimes have very specific requirements for live animals. His example was that if you mail a queen bee, she has to have 10 worker bees with her. Not 9, not 11, but exactly 10. With his limited time, and rude supervisor telling him to stop talking to me, he wasn't able to look into the specifics for fish for me. Is there any that people know of?  

Ive had hit and miss experiences with all the shipper options but the two currently available to me are USPS ( regulations for live fish in publication 52) and UPS( Shipping Special-Care or Regulated Items).

The short version: "the book answer" is they require you ship live animals in a new double walled 275lb test cardboard box or equivalent marked with 1" block lettering that says  "LIVE ANIMALS" or with "LIVE TROPICAL FISH" etc, sent overnight shipping, in 4mil or greater thickness bag containing fish with 1/3rd clean water 2/3rds oxygen,  bagged and placed inside an outer bag to hold leaks aling with have enough absorbant material to soak up the water if it leaks. 

I have sent F1 generation dwarf regani pike, numerous livebearers, and F1 generation puffer fry successfully. The shipping rules for fish in USPS and UPS are not necessarily applied consistently and often you are teaching the workers the regulations with those first few shipments. There is also some ability for the accepting location to refuse a package at their discretion. We believe I was the first documented to ship a live animal from my post office since it was established in 1886; thats how common it is in some locations. My postmaster and I read up on the regulations prior to shipping my first box out. 

Full disclaimer nearly no one knows these regulations when you first ship but they or someone down the line could refuse your shipment, stop your shipment, and or potentially destroy your shipment if it were discovered to violate or appear to violate any applicable regulation(s) or policies that cover your live animals. 

I use 1/2 " or 3/4" foam liners for shipping and have also used purpose built formed foam coolers that fit into the box size I used. These were only used if it was an especially rare fish, or the weather was expected to be cold kr hot along their journey. The foam cooler might  maintain temperature longer than panels and provides a little more structure to the box just in case.

 

---Post Office---

USPS - technically requires you have a new container with fish in a bag and a 2nd bag to contain leaks. I use a box liner which is a big bag. The box must, at a minimum, be made of 275-pound test, double-wall, corrugated, weather-resistant fiberboard (W5c) or equivalent. 

USPS Publication 52 is the document which covers animal shipments section 522 explains box requirements and section 526.6  includes live fish rules. 

---UPS---

UPS regulations cover live fish under Shipping Special-Care or Regulated Items

All live animals offered for transportation must be in a new box. Corrugated boxes must be constructed of a minimum of 275 # bursting strength corrugated or 44 edge crush test. It is recommended that any package containing animals requiring moisture during transportation be constructed of water-resistant material such as wax coated, wax impregnated, or plastic corrugated. Minimal ventilation holes should be provided as necessary

Edited June 7, 2022 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Torrey]

On 6/6/2022 at 11:33 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

---Post Office---

USPS - technically requires you have a new container with fish in a bag and a 2nd bag to contain leaks. I use a box liner which is a big bag. The box must, at a minimum, be made of 275-pound test, double-wall, corrugated, weather-resistant fiberboard (W5c) or equivalent. 

USPS Publication 52 is the document which covers animal shipments section 522 explains box requirements and section 526.6  includes live fish rules. 

So, they have these regulations *and* refuse to reimburse for the cost of overnight shipping when the rules were all followed  but they failed to deliver within the 24 hours that was paid for???

I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the changes since I was last regularly shipping fish....

[Guppysnail]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:32 PM, Cinnebuns said:

So what they are like "this is a live animal. Put it on the next shipment eventho there's space."  Like wtf?

I’m not sure how all that worked. My post guy at the local office (small town same guy for 10 years). Told me when before I shipped it was next day or money back. It was printed guaranteed next day with date and time of guarantee delivery printed on the receipt or money back. It also printed live animal and $100 insurance.  I asked if it was delayed and they were harmed due to delay would they be covered by insurance he said yes. I went in to get the refund. (The fish arrived safe thank heavens which was my primary concern) he said yes you get your money refunded he put it in the computer and the computer denied it as “not eligible for refund it insurance claim”. He actually called an off site supervisor to find out why because he never had any marked as not eligible.  
The fish were safe and I was fine but I did follow up so they would better inform their employees.  If one that has been a worker for 25 years did not know than I’m certain others did not. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Guppysnail]

On 6/7/2022 at 2:30 AM, Torrey said:

but they failed to deliver within the 24 hours that was paid for???

Yes. Though I and my postman did not know all these regulations by my dumb paranoias over shipping fish they were packed correctly.  

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 6/7/2022 at 12:30 AM, Torrey said:

So, they have these regulations *and* refuse to reimburse for the cost of overnight shipping when the rules were all followed  but they failed to deliver within the 24 hours that was paid for???

I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the changes since I was last regularly shipping fish....

I recall one express package of fish being delayed a week. I did get that refunded fully since it was determined to be a result of a USPS issue where it made it to tbe regional hub and stopped for 5 days. It exceeded the 3 day live animal carve out.

"9.5 Priority Mail Express Postage and Fees Refunds // 9.5.5 Refunds Not Given // g. The shipment contained live animals and was delivered or delivery was attempted within 3 days of the date of mailing. "

I got that refumd using form 3533 through my post office the day the box finally showed on the other end. 

9.2.6 Refund Payment. Form 3533: Immediate Refund: If USPS can determine immediately that the mailer is entitled to a refund and the item has postage affixed, then USPS refunds the postage immediately in cash or with a no-fee money order for refund amounts up to $1,000

It was a fairly quick process when needed for my situation.

I have not had any claim on UPS but it has the appearance of a longer more involved process. I generally ship UPS overnight in 10x10x12 boxes for their 1 day flat rate shipping and it has worked for me. If its bigger I do priority express with great results minus that one box refunded. 

[JettsPapa]

I've shipped shrimp, plants, and fish with USPS a number of times.  I only remember problems.  Once I had a shipment of plants not arrive for close to two weeks, and about half arrived dead.  I won't ship in December again.  The second was when I shipped a mature male pearl gourami.  It got delayed and didn't arrive until almost a week after it was shipped, but the fish was fine.

Every other time I've shipped it arrived two or three days after dropping it off at the post office (which I usually do late in the day, by the way).

For fish and shrimp I double-bag them, and then for extra security I usually put the bag(s) in a small garbage bag that's tied closed.  I print up brightly colored stickers that say LIVE PLANTS, LIVE SHRIMP, etc, and put one on top and each side.

Sometimes I use the Express Mail boxes from the post office, but other times I use whatever random cardboard box I have handy.  I've never had a single problem from the personnel at the post office.

[Brian]

If you do decide to ship fish or live animals.  
I would not feed them for at least 24 hours before bagging.  If possible use oxygen.  Some people will add a drop or two of API Stress Coat.  At least double bag them, if bags are not square bottoms- insert first bag into second bag upside down.  Label the bags with common name - scientific name - location or collection point if you have, and how many.  If it is a shrimp or crayfish put a small piece of foam in the bag.  And this is very important…. Make the animal is legally in the place you are mailing to.  
Good Luck and let me know how it goes.

[JettsPapa]

On 6/7/2022 at 10:31 AM, Brian said:

If you do decide to ship fish or live animals.  
I would not feed them for at least 24 hours before bagging.  If possible use oxygen.  Some people will add a drop or two of API Stress Coat.  At least double bag them, if bags are not square bottoms- insert first bag into second bag upside down.  Label the bags with common name - scientific name - location or collection point if you have, and how many.  If it is a shrimp or crayfish put a small piece of foam in the bag.  And this is very important…. Make the animal is legally in the place you are mailing to.  
Good Luck and let me know how it goes.

I use a clump of either guppy grass or pearl weed.

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/7/2022 at 12:33 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

require you ship live animals in a new double walled

Oh is this why I see people put styrophome around the edges?  I was thinking of doing packing peanuts for temp control but maybe that's not sufficient?

[Brian]

On 6/7/2022 at 3:35 PM, Cinnebuns said:

is this why I see people put styrophome around the edges?  I was thinking of doing packing peanuts for temp control but maybe that's not sufficient?

If you double bag them and reverse the second bag this will eliminate the corners and fish getting stuck in the folds of the bags

 

 

 

 

[Cinnebuns]

@mountaintoppufferkeeper @Guppysnail 

 

is there a specific breather bag, heat packs, and cold packs you can recommend?  I don't wanna just order anything off ebay and have it end up being an unreliable product. 

[Guppysnail]

I have only shipped fish twice. I can’t help with that. @Fish Folk would be who I ask about that kind of stuff. 

[Fish Folk]

Here is how I ship mine in winter…

Sumner shipping depends on variables. Type of fish… Day / night temps where shipping from… Day / night temps where shipping to…

I used a cold pack last week on one (NANF) at request of recipient. This week I’ve got a box out with no pack.

I use “Long Life” breather bags.

Just don’t try shipping large Plecos. Their spines can puncture the bag. 

[Torrey]

@Cinnebuns I will ask my friend Max where he orders his breather bags from. They are excellent, and have miraculously kept fish (and shrimp) alive when they got lost in transit.

It has been a while since I shipped fish regularly, so I appreciated all the time Fish Folk put into this tutorial a while back:

 

Due to health issues, we did have access to oxygen when I was shipping fish (back when USPS still gave full refunds if a package wasn't delivered on time), but we didn't have breather bags back then. I think the breather bags are better for many species. Regular bags and oxygen for labyrinth and other surface breathers. A bit of floating plant typically gave fish and shrimp roots to hide in in the regular bags, plus some beneficial bacteria to help with waste management.

I fasted fish 48 hours before shipping, so I caught them 48 hours before and kept them in breeder boxes until it was time to go.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 6/7/2022 at 5:20 PM, Cinnebuns said:

@mountaintoppufferkeeper @Guppysnail 

 

is there a specific breather bag, heat packs, and cold packs you can recommend?  I don't wanna just order anything off ebay and have it end up being an unreliable product. 

@Cinnebuns i defer to @Fish Folk o. That but i do have my info.

For my supplies I went to aquabid ( pretty sure thats allowed to mention ) and looked at shipping supplies. I ordered from the one seller that accounts for probably 95% of current listings in thst category. 

I use 72 hour uniheat when below 50 or so. I open it put it in a paper bag and let it sit while it activates and warms a bit. If jts not warm by the time im packing the box its no good. 

I normally use 3 mil poly bags of various sizes, a box liner bag for usps medium flate rate boxes, do have a bunch of  longlife breather bags but ive only tried those once with great success on a 1/4" puffer fry. 

I fast for 48 hours, I double bag the non breather fishbags 3mil thick each with java moss and a cube of polyfilter. I do packing tape to square the corners ( learned that one from @Dean’s Fishroom) and prevent anyone getting stuck in a corner.  

I dont have oxgen so i use my airpump and a rigid tube to inflate the first bag then place it in the 2nd bag and inflate the second bag with air as well. My theory is it keeps a little air gap between the bags and also acts as a pressure change buffer when leaving here 9,100 feet up for lower elevations.

My bigger shipping cost was buying shipping boxes and shipping coolers. The  foam coolers and the matching 275 double walled carboard box which is 10x10x12" are the biggest you can go to still get ups flat rate shipping. I am overly cautious on the temps. I use that foam cooler shipment containder because its 3/4 thick foam with no gap when shut and it provides a little structural integrity to the box whichbalso insulates with its double wall.  

Ive sent something like (80) F1 regani pike in 2 bags in that box set up with no drop in temperature and no doa. I have also sent out (30) 1/4" F1 palustris puffers with no doa. 

If given the option for smaller amounts in a shipment would use long live bresther bags wrapped in viva cloth papertowels and with paper between the layers of thd bags as needed.

[JettsPapa]

On 6/7/2022 at 2:35 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Oh is this why I see people put styrophome around the edges?  I was thinking of doing packing peanuts for temp control but maybe that's not sufficient?

When the box is lined with sheets of styrofoam it's for temperature control.  Many people use it in winter.  I'm in southeast Texas, and use it in summer when shipping shrimp.  The boxes may still get very warm, but the styrofoam helps prevent abrupt temperature changes.

I don't believe packing peanuts would work well.  I'm afraid that the contents would settle during shipping so there was no insulation under the fish, shrimp, or whatever.

[Torrey]

On 6/7/2022 at 5:57 PM, Fish Folk said:

Here is how I ship mine in winter…

Sumner shipping depends on variables. Type of fish… Day / night temps where shipping from… Day / night temps where shipping to…

I used a cold pack last week on one (NANF) at request of recipient. This week I’ve got a box out with no pack.

I use “Long Life” breather bags.

Just don’t try shipping large Plecos. Their spines can puncture the bag. 

I was looking for your thread while you were posting yesterday, lol

 

[tolstoy21]

@Cinnebuns I shipped a couple hundred boxes of fish in the past year. Before I got started shipping fish, I watched a video from Dan's Fish that was probably the single most helpful video there was for me.  Link below included below.

These are my personal lessons I've learned (first two deal with dealing with shippers):

• UPS is great, and you can get better rates using them by going through a free shipping provider like Shippo. Shippo is very bare bones, but it's free. If you ship a lot, you might want to upgrade to a better service, but you'll need to pay for that.
• Don't ask don't tell. That's my policy in regards to what's in my box. I put fragile stickers and this-end-up stickers on the boxes, but I don't tell the shipper I'm shipping live animals because I don't want to have to deal with those complications, regulations, and the fear, uncertainty and doubt that will manifest on their end.
• Stryo-line your boxes and makes sure the styro is a tight fit, but not so tight it bulges the box sides as this makes it hard to tape and seal the top nicely.
• Breather bags are awesome for many reasons I won't go into . . . . BUT their failure rate is higher than traditional double-bagged poly bags.  I now only use them for shipping shrimp. I wished they were more reliable. I love using them.
• Anything smaller than like a 12x9x9 box is risky for including heat packs in anything but the most frigid weather. Always tape heat packs to box lids. I skipped this step once, and well, live and learn!

Anyway, hope some of this helps.

 

 

On 6/8/2022 at 9:36 AM, JettsPapa said:

When the box is lined with sheets of styrofoam it's for temperature control.  Many people use it in winter.  I'm in southeast Texas, and use it in summer when shipping shrimp.  The boxes may still get very warm, but the styrofoam helps prevent abrupt temperature changes.

I don't believe packing peanuts would work well.  I'm afraid that the contents would settle during shipping so there was no insulation under the fish, shrimp, or whatever.

Agreed on the peanuts. Use something simple and absorbent like wadded newsprint for filling out the blank space. This also helps with temp control and prevents shifting contents.

I also use 1" thick styro-lining on my boxes year round. It not only helps with temp regulation, it also adds a lot of structural integrity to the boxes.

Edited June 9, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Guppysnail]

@tolstoy21 where do you get your styrofoam?  I found some on Amazon but it seems pricey.