Looking for input: Discus breeding? Or Saffron Shiners?

[Fish Folk]

I’m really a fan of cold water NANF as well as tropical Amazon mainstays.

Right now, I’ve got a 29 gal. to set up on the footprint where I have a 20 long…

I had in mind rebuilding a version of my tank at work…

but for Saffron Shiners instead or Rainbow Shiners…

But then my Discus started begging me to set up a spawning tank…

And I started thinking that I could set up a Discus breeding tank first for awhile, then later convert it into a cold jungle for Saffrons.

Your thoughts? Saffrons right away? Or breed Discus for a year or so?

[Lemon]

Saffrons right away, they are so beautiful and we always want to hear about nanf. 

[Patrick_G]

I’d love to see some discus fry, and learn the breeding process. 
 

15.23 for a 29g is a great deal!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Discs! (I suspect you don't have the otherr fish yet). 

[Torrey]

On 5/27/2022 at 12:10 PM, Patrick_G said:

I’d love to see some discus fry, and learn the breeding process. 
 

15.23 for a 29g is a great deal!

I saw that too!!! Wish I saw those deals down here, lol

@Fish Folk you know I miss breeding my discus..... So the selfish part of me that lives vicariously through other people's pictures of their discus is screaming that you should breed discus for a year or two.

The realistic me, who bred fish while managing a farm and being a single parent to 3? The parent says your kids are only this age once, and discus will be around later. Go with the saffrons.

[Brian]

You need to do you.  I will tell you when I was spawning Discus I started  the fry around 13-17 days in a tray a lot like Dean shows.  And depending on the size of the spawn, upgraded that to 2 or 3 ten gallon tanks and then to a couple 29 gallons.  I don’t have auto water change systems.  So I was changing water at least daily.  And at least two baby brine hatcheries going everyday.  

You need to do you….  

[Fish Folk]

On 5/27/2022 at 7:20 PM, Brian said:

You need to do you.  I will tell you when I was spawning Discus I started  the fry around 13-17 days in a tray a lot like Dean shows.  And depending on the size of the spawn, upgraded that to 2 or 3 ten gallon tanks and then to a couple 29 gallons.  I don’t have auto water change systems.  So I was changing water at least daily.  And at least two baby brine hatcheries going everyday.  

You need to do you….  

How many pairs were you spawning at once?

On 5/27/2022 at 5:01 PM, Torrey said:

I saw that too!!! Wish I saw those deals down here, lol

@Fish Folk you know I miss breeding my discus..... So the selfish part of me that lives vicariously through other people's pictures of their discus is screaming that you should breed discus for a year or two.

The realistic me, who bred fish while managing a farm and being a single parent to 3? The parent says your kids are only this age once, and discus will be around later. Go with the saffrons.

I’m imagining a limited edition breeding run. If I can get BAP for a single spawn, I’ll be content. Do you think that the challenge rises when you become a  slave to extreme water changes? 

[Brian]

I had two pairs at first and then added a third.  When I started keeping discus I had between 30ish and 40ish tanks setup.  Once raising them started I went down to 8-12 or so tanks.   

[Tihshho]

Since you guys seem to have the most success with shiners, and have yet to get your Discus going (thinking of BAP here for you!) I would personally go with the Discus. Start with a pair since you have them and work on learning on species you have. As Brian stated, spawning Discus is pretty intensive once you get fry. You'd have to weigh out your options of letting the parents raise the fry (cross your fingers they are good parents) or artificially rearing them like what Brian mentioned. If you're after the experience try to see how the parents fare with rearing the young. If you're after BAP and available to put the work in, go the artificial method. Regardless which method you go with, keep in mind that you're going to need more than just the 29 in terms of raising them up and then figuring out offloading them which means for most half dollar size being the smallest. A decent clutch of babies is going to push you into multiple tanks to keep up with water quality unless you have the space for a 6' tank which IMO isn't worth dedicating to one project. 

Since you're local though, I can tell you I'd pick up small Discus in a heart beat 🙂

The other side of the coin is to go down the route you mentioned and get the shiners going. If you have a source for them and they are sporadically available, that would change my opinion on going down that route. If you can get them fairly easily year round, and historically there are no lulls in availability, I would still go with the Discus. If they are harder to get, Shiners would be the choice. 

Regardless of what you choose, you and your son's will get a kick out of it and once you figure out what works best for you and your specific fish, you'll have tons of success which I have no doubts on. 

TLDR - Here is a simple pro's cons list of both

Discus Pros:

1. You have them
2. They are currently showing spawning activity in your care
3. You have interest in spawning them

Discus Cons:

1. Water changes are key
2. Going to need more than a 29 once babies start to grow up with parents or if you pull them early to artifically rear them
3. Going to need to have multiple additional tanks for rearing or at least to hold over fish you're unable to trade or sell

Shiner Pros:

1. You already have Shiner breeding under your belt, so these shouldn't be too hard to get going with your current method
2. New to You species
3. You've been eyeing them up for a while 
4. Smaller footprint in terms of breeding and rearing setup

Shiner Cons: 

1. Don't have them currently & will have to work on getting them to spawning size and shape
2. Going to have QT time and dealing with possible DOA's or a risk of whatever they come in with (probably nothing, but still a risk)
3. Not Discus 😉

[Fish Folk]

@Tihshho excellent analysis! Much appreciated. I have credit from a wholesaler to get the Saffrons, so I am not worried about getting them. My thing with the Discus is . . . the pair currently breeding are so small, yet they're going to town. The others I have are absolutely gigantic in comparison. I just have to believe there is a pair in there.

My actual fear is that the silicone to the 29 gal is black, and would distract baby discus from eating slime coat off parents 🤣

Still on the fence here. I'd like to succeed with discus just once, and then cross that of my bucket list. But if it's a huge bother, and will take forever for a pair to really settle in, I'm probably too impatient.

The Saffrons are so special . . . I've been utterly obsessed with them for over a year now. But I know that If I go down that rabbit hole, I'll be dedicated to them with no plans to get out. Kind of a one-way.

[Tihshho]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:07 PM, Fish Folk said:

Kind of a one-way.

I think your last sentence makes the answer clear... You need to dedicate a wall of tanks for Discus and setup the 29 for the Shiners 😏

I only semi kid with that comment. Theoretically if you setup a rack on one side of the wall (budget, time and all permitting) if the Discus project doesn't work out I'm sure you could use the tanks for rearing your current projects. I'm specifically trying to not say that it will also open up the doors for other projects... Too late, said that too...

[Ken Burke]

On 5/27/2022 at 9:07 PM, Fish Folk said:

@Tihshho excellent analysis! Much appreciated. I have credit from a wholesaler to get the Saffrons, so I am not worried about getting them. My thing with the Discus is . . . the pair currently breeding are so small, yet they're going to town. The others I have are absolutely gigantic in comparison. I just have to believe there is a pair in there.

My actual fear is that the silicone to the 29 gal is black, and would distract baby discus from eating slime coat off parents 🤣

Still on the fence here. I'd like to succeed with discus just once, and then cross that of my bucket list. But if it's a huge bother, and will take forever for a pair to really settle in, I'm probably too impatient.

The Saffrons are so special . . . I've been utterly obsessed with them for over a year now. But I know that If I go down that rabbit hole, I'll be dedicated to them with no plans to get out. Kind of a one-way.

U always need an exit strategy.  I think u should breed the discus and send a few my way……

[L_goodei200]

Saffron Shiners. Not that i have anything against Discus, I just personally love NANF.

[Fish Folk]

Thanks all for helping!

I’m going to do both 😎

Discus will be as described over on my Discus-sion thread. A very humble, low-expectation run with the young breeding pair of Cobalt Blues I already have. I just set this up for them in their 40 gal breeder today…

This leaves my 29 gal dedicated to Saffron Shiners! 🤩

I’ll be reusing substrate, stones, and sponges from here (20 gal long)…

Adding a black backing, black matten sponge, and building a spraybar attached to a powerhead. Stay tuned!

Edited May 28, 2022 by Fish Folk

[Tihshho]

When you get to putting a black backing on, I'd recomend either painting with spray paint or using plasti-dip. It's easy to apply, holds up, and you don't have to worry about stuff getting stuck between it and the glass over time. 

Glad you decided to do both!

[Patrick_G]

On 5/28/2022 at 11:34 AM, Fish Folk said:

I’m going to do both 😎

I knew it! 😁

What’s going in the old 20L? 

[Fish Folk]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:55 PM, Patrick_G said:

I knew it! 😁

What’s going in the old 20L? 

I am retiring the tank. I got it for next to nothing at a club auction. It's. been cracked and repaired. I do not have space (or time) for new tanks. I specifically wanted the 29 gal because its footprint is identical to the 20 gal long. I'll reuse as much as I can from the 20 gal and pitch it. 

[Odd Duck]

Yay, for saffrons!  This was going to be my vote.  There’s lots of documentation out there on spawning discus, but I was glad to read you already had your pretty little turquoise pair set up (read that update first).  Not nearly as much info out there on saffrons in general, let alone on spawning in aquaria.  Looking forward to watching both set ups develop.

[Torrey]

On 5/27/2022 at 5:22 PM, Fish Folk said:

How many pairs were you spawning at once?

I’m imagining a limited edition breeding run. If I can get BAP for a single spawn, I’ll be content. Do you think that the challenge rises when you become a  slave to extreme water changes? 

Yes, the added difficulty of chasing water parameters made the discus breeding a Holy Grail project. This was before I had kids (when I got started). Once I got the hang of it, I never had fewer than 3 pairs breeding, much to the delight of my LFS. Eggs would not hatch in our hard water, but by the third gen I could raise the fry to be acclimated to our water. By the time my daughter was born (1995) I was able to keep it going *only* because I had already learned to leave the parents alone to learn how to raise the fry. They typically eat the first 2 - 3 batches, which is a great conditioner for the next clutch when feeding BBS every day, in addition to worms and mosquito larvae on top of quality flake food and scrambled egg. Each clutch of eggs would cover double the space of the clutch before, and the discus raised by the parents would get the hang of taking care of the eggs *and* the fry by batch number 3. The ones I naively tried raising without the parents? The fry that survived made great pets... horrible, horrible parents.

Quickest way to trigger spawning behavior is an increase of live foods, followed by a series of water changes to get the water softer (mimic the monsoon season). Rain water was ideal for breeding. Horrible for overall stability, but fantastic for breeding.

Of course, in home RO wasn't really an option for me in the 90's, lol