The Accidental Oto Keeper

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Guppysnail I suppose that is very possible but I didn't leave a whole lot more than what I do on a daily for that fear that it would foul the tank. All the Repashy was cleaned up and only a little of the Banquet Block was left. At first I thought it could be that but I fed it to the babies too and there was some left in their floater. The Nitrate read between 25-50 which is normal for this tank. It's a bit of a head scratcher for me. Just hope that's the end of the loses but I'm bracing for more. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Found another. (bringing recent sudden deaths to 7) This one was found while doing a water change. I cleaned the HOB (which was recently cleaned) and put some crushed coral in it. I usually keep a piece of Polyfilter in the tank as a canary in a coal mine, so I changed it. It was indicating no ammonia and more brown (organics). I'll test the tank again in a few....

Ok, After water change still 0 Ammonia 25 Nitrate, 0 Nitrite, Still hard as liquid diamond, My KH is approaching 80 now (a color between 40 and 80 but neither color exactly), pH is getting between 6.8 and 7.2 (another color issue), of course 0 chlorine. 

Now we wait. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
Update to post.

[TheSwissAquarist]

Sorry to hear about your losses😢

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Parent Tank

I still have a huge head scratcher. In the last 2 days I've lost yet more Otos. My total loss right now is 14. Some of them had concave stomachs but I can't tell if this occured after death. They otherwise looked healthy. One was too far gone/decayed to tell. Again, 0 ammonia, and the other parameters tested steady/well. The pH is steadily going up. 

I did a 24 hour dose of Naladin on a hail Mary move.

Possibly to the detriment of my Nerites. I've seen signs of life on one, I moved the 3 out of the tank. Hopefully they'll perk up. I did a 50% water change today and added Alkaline Buffer to bring the pH more. Doesn't appear anyone is eating in the main tank. 

I pulled 3 more Otos that look like they're not going to make it and put them in a floating breeder. 

STILL all the babies are fine. They are all alive and eating. This is what perplexes me most- if there was something bad going around in the tank you'd think they'd be the most vunerable. 

I've also not found any of my 5 Tiger/Zebra Otos dead. They all seem to be accounted for. 

I'm not sure there's much more I can do. I could try another medication but not sure where to go from here. If anyone has any ideas throw them out there. Like Guppysnail suggested I'm not feeding any cucumber at this time, just Repashy. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

Feed a bit light and frequent water changes even though no parameters are off kilter.  There are sometimes things in the water we can’t test for.  Add extra aeration.  I can’t remember, have you added aquarium salt yet?  At least do 1 tablespoon per gallon.  Sometimes babies adapt better.  Make sure you aren’t getting any stray voltage from anywhere.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd Duck I don't have a heater there. The filtration is 2 sponge (lots of bubbles- I'll see if I can add more) so no electricity there but there is an Aqueon hob, can they transmit a current at all? Other than that nothing to transmit a current. 

I thought about salt but had already traumatized my Nerites. I moved them last night so I'll dose the tank with salt later today. Thankfully the Nerites are not where I put them last night so hopefully they will all be ok. 

I found 3 more deceased today that brings me to 17. One of the 3 I pulled yesterday in the breeder, 1 floater, and one along the bottom. Still no obvious signs of illness. I see a few more not acting right so who knows how many I'll find later. 

Food seemed to have been eaten more than the last few days. I sucked up the old food this morning and put new food in. Allllll the babies still with me. 

The large female I caught in the breeder box I'm keeping an eye on seems to be carrying eggs. She also has a very red anal area. I'm thinking of Epsom soaking her later too and trying to inspect her more closely. She's the only one that looks bad. Everyone else despite being dead or dying looks normal. Still scratching my head. I hope I don't lose the whole colony. 

[Odd Duck]

So sorry this is happening!  I have no good explanation for you.

I would try metronidazole at this point since you had a dead one floating.  That could indicate a gas-producing bacteria in the gut and metronidazole in the food (best) or in the water would be my go to med for that.

The nerites should not be bothered at all by aquarium salt. They are brackish water snails, really.  That’s why the larvae go marine.

Keep us posted. While this is awful when you’re going through it, as a group, we may be able to learn from this.  We all appreciate you being willing to share the experience even when it isn’t easy. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 12/11/2022 at 7:41 AM, Odd Duck said:

nerites should not be bothered at all by aquarium salt

oh, duh of course - I always automatically think snails and salt don't mix but this is not the case here. No matter anyway, they are safe from all meds now where they are. I though I'd killed them off with the Naladin. 

I have only caught 2 floaters, everyone else was at the bottom of the tank. I cannot guarantee anyone will eat the food but I will medicate some Repashy with the Metro - do you think it'd be ok to dose both in water and food??

On 12/11/2022 at 12:04 AM, Odd Duck said:

There are sometimes things in the water we can’t test for.

This is absolutely something I thought about too. I know Otos are more sensitive but I'd think there would be others in my remaining tanks (like my Hillstream Loach) that would show signs. Nothing so far. 

On 12/11/2022 at 7:41 AM, Odd Duck said:

appreciate you being willing to share the experience even when it isn’t easy. 

Well, it happens. It sucks and no it's not easy at all, but it does happen. If I can add to the knowledge base and give out my experience, hopefully prevent others from having the issue OR help people who do have an issue that's the best I can hope for when something bad happens. At first one thinks, well this is embarrassing - but logically there is nothing I have done that was wrong (at least that I've found, but willing to admit it if I do find it). 

I think too, it's important for people new to the hobby to know that this hobby can have disasters - that none of us are immune to them no matter how long we've done it or how long the tank has been going. 

[Odd Duck]

On 12/11/2022 at 9:59 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I cannot guarantee anyone will eat the food but I will medicate some Repashy with the Metro - do you think it'd be ok to dose both in water and food??

I would try in the food first since it’s the most effective way to get metronidazole into the fish. But if they don’t eat it, treat the water. If they start eating better overall, then try again in the food.

I know mostly you’re finding them on the bottom but that’s the only clue that says it might be GI issues. Worth trying the metronidazole to see if it works. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

THE PARENT TANK: Ongoing issues. 

I am continuing to find at least 1 deceased Oto a day, (I'm now up to 22 deceased- all the babies in the floating breeder still ok!) I've been feeding the Otos Metroplex in their Repashy, putting salt in their water as @Odd Duck suggested. I decided to try more since I'm still at an unknown illness. (The water continues to test 0 in the things you don't want and low on the other things- other than hardness which has always been high) I decided to remove some of the pots I've had in there for over a year but they were never meant to be in an aquarium (plant nursery pots) so I thought well, there is always the possibility they're leaching something now- even if they are not the problem taking 3 pots out of the tank will make it easier for me to see the Otos and clean the tank a little more as time goes on (also trying not to overclean which can cause problems). I've been doing 50% water changes instead of my usual 15% every week. Testing every other day. Yesterday was the first day I found a deceased Tiger Oto- that bummed me out. I plan on doing another water change today despite having removed the pots and changed 50% yesterday just in case they were leaching something. I did an eye check this morning and didn't see any deceased Otos (yet). I'm hoping they are eating the medicated food and/or I've removed potential culprits and I'll be staving off any further losses- only time will tell. 

Here are some of the babies last night, so glad they are still with me: 

Edited December 16, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[DaveO]

On 12/16/2022 at 8:29 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

THE PARENT TANK: Ongoing issues. 

I am continuing to find at least 1 deceased Oto a day, (I'm now up to 22 deceased- all the babies in the floating breeder still ok!) I've been feeding the Otos Metroplex in their Repashy, putting salt in their water as @Odd Duck suggested. I decided to try more since I'm still at an unknown illness. (The water continues to test 0 in the things you don't want and low on the other things- other than hardness which has always been high) I decided to remove some of the pots I've had in there for over a year but they were never meant to be in an aquarium (plant nursery pots) so I thought well, there is always the possibility they're leaching something now- even if they are not the problem taking 3 pots out of the tank will make it easier for me to see the Otos and clean the tank a little more as time goes on (also trying not to overclean which can cause problems). I've been doing 50% water changes instead of my usual 15% every week. Testing every other day. Yesterday was the first day I found a deceased Tiger Oto- that bummed me out. I plan on doing another water change today despite having removed the pots and changed 50% yesterday just in case they were leaching something. I did an eye check this morning and didn't see any deceased Otos (yet). I'm hoping they are eating the medicated food and/or I've removed potential culprits and I'll be staving off any further losses- only time will tell. 

Here are some of the babies last night, so glad they are still with me: 

I hope you can get to the bottom of this. Bums me out too.

[Odd Duck]

I wish I knew of something to tell you.  This completely sucks that they’re still passing but they aren’t showing outward symptoms so that we can do a more focused treatment.  Since there are still ongoing deaths, it would be worth considering sending a freshly deceased specimen to a university that has people qualified to do a post-mortem on fish.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

THE PARENT TANK: Mystery continues...

Well I'm now up to 26 deceased Otocinclus (1 of which was a Tiger, have also found 1 deceased baby- but I cannot tell how it died, it very well could have been mosh-pitted to death as they are getting much bigger and there are so many in the breeder box). They are still getting fed Repashy with Metroplex (the babies aren't). It seems the deaths have slowed but haven't entirely stopped. I'll be doing a water change tomorrow and seeing if there are any more bodies lurking in the tank. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

On 12/22/2022 at 8:58 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

THE PARENT TANK: Mystery continues...

Well I'm now up to 26 deceased Otocinclus (1 of which was a Tiger, have also found 1 deceased baby- but I cannot tell how it died, it very well could have been mosh-pitted to death as they are getting much bigger and there are so many in the breeder box). They are still getting fed Repashy with Metroplex (the babies aren't). It seems the deaths have slowed but haven't entirely stopped. I'll be doing a water change tomorrow and seeing if there are any more bodies lurking in the tank. 

Any chance you could cut open the most recent one and send me some pics?  As close up as you can?  Just open down the midline of the belly all the way through the body cavity and take pics as close as you can keep it focused, then zoom in as much as you can.  If you can, then slide all the looser bits (intestines) to one side and take pics of what’s under them.  Then all the bits to the other side and repeat.  Then take a pic of the gills.  You might have to remove an operculum to get a gill pic on an oto.  I only need one side as long as both sets of gills look the same to you.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Odd DuckI will try with the next one I find. I was never good in biology class so we shall see.

Edited December 24, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

So this tank's problems have slowed but continue. I hadn't had a deceased adult since the last post (of course when @Odd Duck suggests cutting one open I can't find one) - this is a good thing except I was for a few days daily finding deceased babies in the floating breeder. Ugggghhhhhh. I cannot say if it's a tank problem or they were moshing themselves to death. There were no outside signs of illness or injury. I wasn't keeping track but I think I've lost 5-6 (I'm not counting because I'm half frustrated and half depressed about this tank- which equals denial to an extent). 

I separated the babies into two separate breeders so as to eliminate the death by moshpit theory. No dead babies today. Food eaten as per usual. 

I'm doing larger water changes. there is SO much mulm being churned around that wasn't being churned before. Lots of vacuuming. The HOB has picked quite a bit of it up but there's plenty that sinks to the bottom- but some days it's just floating around. Yesterday was the first time I found one deceased adult but unfortunatly they were far too decayed to be able to do an autopsy. 

I stopped the Metroplex in the adults food last week (they had it about 2 weeks) and they're all seemingly eating well, the food is always gone that I leave for them and I saw one adult on the side of the tank today with what looked like a healthy poop coming out. 

The only thing I can think to do is to do a complete reset on this tank. Maybe it has old tank syndrome? I did test the water yesterday, NO Nitrite/Ammonia, Nitrate good (25), buffer around 4, gh has always been high (liquid rock), ph around 7. 

I keep trying to eliminate possiblities but haven't found the trick yet - though again at least the deaths have slowed. 

[Odd Duck]

I would probably let things ride for a bit and see how things look. Have Maracyn-2 ready to treat if any further symptoms or deaths. Sometimes you reach a point where you have to let them be for a bit and see if they will sort themselves out with just clean water and a touch of salt. 

[sankaz]

I'm so sad that this has been happening. I hadn't kept up reading for months so didn't know. I also love my otos. I hope whatever was happening has stopped. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/8/2022 at 7:21 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I used ACO test strips- 0 ammonia (as my Seachem Ammonia Alert says), Low Nitrate, no Nitrite, my water is "very hard" but it has ALWAYS been, low KH and low PH (6.8).

All I can think to do is raise PH/KH as maybe it's affecting them? So I added a little Alkaline buffer until I can do a large water change and add more crushed coral to the tank. But here's the mystery to me:

What is your KH?  Potentially you had a KH crash from the food, resulting in a PH dive.  My otos have been and constantly stay at 6.2 and up to 7.4.  They've been in this tank for quite a while.  At the old house, out water was much more stable, pegged at 6.8-7.0 without much issue.

Whether there was a contaminant from cleaning something, a swing in some parameter (temp and oxygenation is usually what I look at for loaches, otos, and corydoras), or if there was just a random fluke accident that happened in timing with your vacation... difficult to pin anything down.

I'll keep reading.....

On 12/8/2022 at 12:15 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Ok, After water change still 0 Ammonia 25 Nitrate, 0 Nitrite, Still hard as liquid diamond, My KH is approaching 80 now (a color between 40 and 80 but neither color exactly), pH is getting between 6.8 and 7.2 (another color issue), of course 0 chlorine. 

Alright yeah, that's "good" and adding that KH to slightly buffer up to 70 range is perfect.  Just making sure it doesn't drop below 60 is about what I shoot for.  It's so hard to keep it that high and have large volume water changes in my current location.  I think you're setup for the right recipe moving forward to remove / ignore PH+KH as a stress point.

On 12/11/2022 at 6:30 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I'll see if I can add more) so no electricity there but there is an Aqueon hob, can they transmit a current at all? Other than that nothing to transmit a current. 

Yes, the pump is located in the water itself.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:06 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I'm doing larger water changes. there is SO much mulm being churned around that wasn't being churned before. Lots of vacuuming. The HOB has picked quite a bit of it up but there's plenty that sinks to the bottom- but some days it's just floating around. Yesterday was the first time I found one deceased adult but unfortunatly they were far too decayed to be able to do an autopsy. 

I stopped the Metroplex in the adults food last week (they had it about 2 weeks) and they're all seemingly eating well, the food is always gone that I leave for them and I saw one adult on the side of the tank today with what looked like a healthy poop coming out. 

The only thing I can think to do is to do a complete reset on this tank. Maybe it has old tank syndrome? I did test the water yesterday, NO Nitrite/Ammonia, Nitrate good (25), buffer around 4, gh has always been high (liquid rock), ph around 7. 

I keep trying to eliminate possiblities but haven't found the trick yet - though again at least the deaths have slowed. 

Given the sheer number of deaths, I am going to guess that the issue was some chemical residue on the cucumber.  Sometimes even with rinsing thoroughly some veggies might introduce something we really don't want.  I think OD was onto it when mentioning the gut bacterial issue.  You mentioned it was an organic one, all I can think is to point to that as one possibility even if it seems extremely unlikely.  Soap on the hands, lotion on skin, something in the room that somehow got in the tank, and it's just a fluke coincidence.

If it were me, I would start by removing everything from the tank you can.  If all the fish are in a specimen container then I would try to move that to a bucket or tub for an hour while doing a scrub and clean of the tank.  Usually when I suspect a major contamination issue I follow this method:

1.  Remove the lid, set it aside to be cleaned at the sink.
2.  Remove all the hardscape to be rinsed thoroughly and cleaned (plants in your case fit this)
3.  Try to remove the fish if need be, but generally this isn't feasible.
4.  siphon out the substrate heavily until the tank is at 50% water volume.  This gives you "room to work" so to speak.
5.  Using paper towels, fish only sponge, or something that you feel you can use on the tank, I go ahead and scrub the sides and front glass.  I go ahead and clean near the rim, this is usually where things linger and a lot of junk hides. 
6.  Clean the filter housing, sponges, pump, rinse it well in the sink. I would tend to opt towards rinsing the ceramic media (or biological) in the tap water as long as it's cold as well in this instance)
7.  Siphon out the water as low as you can, ensuring the fish themselves have enough water in the tank so that their dorsal fins are submerged and they aren't going to get trapped somewhere and hurt themselves trying to scatter around on the tank.  This is usually at 80% water volume for most people.
8.  Gently reverse everything.  Fill up the tank with temperature accurate water, dose in 2-3x the normal dose of dechlorinator and add carbon to the filter for the next 10-14 days.

As a sidenote, if you haven't I would add an airstone (or two) and then I would clean the lid / rim area daily just to make sure whatever the air splashes onto the bottom of the lid you can remove.  Running carbon right now (once you're done with meds) I would also highly recommend to filter out whatever is going on.

I know it seems drastic, but hopefully that is useful and helpful.  I feel such sympathy for your struggles and wish I could do more to help.

Edited January 11, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@nabokovfan87 thank you for your very thoughtful responses here. I have absolutely thought of all of the things that you mentioned and I agree any of these things could have been factors in the tank crash so you just validate most of the things I've run through. Ultimately something was out of balance and/or introduced into the tank. I stopped putting anything 'fresh" in the tank and have been feeding only Repashy. I removed potential contaminates from the tank, cleaned the filters (but not all at once, I've avoided OVER-cleaning, which can cause it's own issues). The tank runs 2 air driven sponge filters (one has bio rings) they add lots of aggitation to the tank so I don't think oxygen was ever a huge issue. The HOB and electricity isn't the issue as it has never stopped running and the deaths have stopped, and I've never felt anything in the tank. I do actually plan some time in the near future here to reset the whole tank- but as @Odd Ducksuggested I'm actually letting things settle for now- I haven't lost another Oto since the last update. No dead adults that I'm aware of. They've been eating like champs too. Also no dead babies which I suspect since splitting them the moshpitting/blunt force trauma was COD on them and now that there are less of them in each breeder there have been no accidents/deaths. Since I'm busy with other tank projects letting things settle for now is all I'm able to do. I have a good amount of adults left, hopefully they will still spawn eventually. Only time will tell. 

And also thank you @sankaz for your condolences. Hopefully it's over for now. I'm crossing my fingers. 

[Theplatymaster]

Did something go wrong?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Theplatymaster lost about 30 adults in the last couple of months. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

OTOCINCLUS VITTATUS: The Parent Tank

Things seem to have stabilized in the Parent tank. I've discovered no new deaths since the last ones posted - babies are all fine too. I've even added a new Nerite. I have seen an increase in surface bubbles which I'm not sure of the source yet (yes, I know all the causes, ammonia is still 0 so it's not that). I'm wondering if it's excess of debris which this tank seems to have plenty of mulm despite my constantly cleaning it and removing most of the wood that was once in the tank. I'm going to be trimming up the plants quite bit and doing a large cleaning this week as I progress to a full reset on this tank. It's time for a re-do anyway. The tank looks nothing like what I started with and looks nothing like I would like it to- it's a hot mess visually- it's just evolved out of necessity. Since I've been busy staving off deaths and building the Medieval tank I've not had time to plan what this reset will look like but it will likely have to happen with the fish in the tank so it will take many days and possibly happening over weeks. I'll be giving thought to this in the coming days. 

[DaveO]

Good to hear this tanks has settled down for you. I'm looking forward to updates on the reset .