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Too many floating plants


Chad
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I've been trying like crazy to figure out what's been killing my guppies for a month now. Tested water for every parameter I could think of. All great. Thought maybe I had parasites? Tank too dirty? Nothing changed. I then saw signs that it might be low oxygen (heavy breathing at top, hanging near filter) but I told myself no way. I had some floating plants but they only took up less than half the tank top. Besides, I have two sponge filters and a bubbler toy (nostalgia-inspired, don't judge;). No chance, right? Anyway, another dies and I decide to reign in the floating plants (amazon frogbit mixed in with wisteria and watersprite) with some airline tube. I wake up to the remaining fish active, good color and their dorsal fins are up! I hadn't seen that for too long. At the moment, it seems this was my problem but I'm still confounded how I had so much aeration going on in a 20 gallon long and still had an oxygen issue? Can anyone share some insight if they've experienced this too? Here's a pic of my tank last week before the fencing off of the floaters. It's only 12 hours in so it could be something else, but I noticed a big change in their behavior this morning. I've seen so many pics and vids of tanks with far more floating plants that I figured it couldn't be the issue. Thoughts?

aquarium-1.jpg

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On 9/8/2021 at 11:25 AM, Chad said:

I've been trying like crazy to figure out what's been killing my guppies for a month now. Tested water for every parameter I could think of. All great. Thought maybe I had parasites? Tank too dirty? Nothing changed. I then saw signs that it might be low oxygen (heavy breathing at top, hanging near filter) but I told myself no way. I had some floating plants but they only took up less than half the tank top. Besides, I have two sponge filters and a bubbler toy (nostalgia-inspired, don't judge;). No chance, right? Anyway, another dies and I decide to reign in the floating plants (amazon frogbit mixed in with wisteria and watersprite) with some airline tube. I wake up to the remaining fish active, good color and their dorsal fins are up! I hadn't seen that for too long. At the moment, it seems this was my problem but I'm still confounded how I had so much aeration going on in a 20 gallon long and still had an oxygen issue? Can anyone share some insight if they've experienced this too? Here's a pic of my tank last week before the fencing off of the floaters. It's only 12 hours in so it could be something else, but I noticed a big change in their behavior this morning. I've seen so many pics and vids of tanks with far more floating plants that I figured it couldn't be the issue. Thoughts?

aquarium-1.jpg

That wouldn’t be my first guess, but it’s a possibility. Perhaps if the bubbles cannot burst across the surface, oxygen absorption is not as efficient? My surfaces are totally plastered with plants… fish (guppies) seem Ok. I’d look at temperature before air. BUT! Your fish are doing better, so fence the wavetops! 

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On 9/8/2021 at 11:07 AM, Fish Folk said:

That wouldn’t be my first guess, but it’s a possibility. Perhaps if the bubbles cannot burst across the surface, oxygen absorption is not as efficient? My surfaces are totally plastered with plants… fish (guppies) seem Ok. I’d look at temperature before air. BUT! Your fish are doing better, so fence the wavetops! 

My temp has been stable at 77-78 degrees, but that's a good call and one of the first things I looked at.

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On 9/8/2021 at 11:26 AM, ARMYVET said:

How much dechlorinator have you used?  Dechlorinators bind oxygen and if you water comes out with low dissolved oxygen and then you dechlorinate you can run into a low oxygen situation.  @Cory did a video on it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqfv15XIey4&t=605s

 

This one had my attention too, and it may be the culprit. I do use Fritz complete but try to use two drops per gallon to the water before I add it to the tank when I clean. Wait five minutes and pour it in. I just set up a holding bucket for water changes with an airstone and heater to stop using this altogether or at least off gas it while it sits in my basement. We'll see how that goes. I did also check with my water municipality and they use chlorine and not chloramine. But I thought I better use this stuff anyway since they might change this in the future without my knowing it?

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On 9/8/2021 at 11:13 AM, Patrick_G said:

That wouldn’t be my guess either but even if there’s no correlation the problems is solved so all is good 

In the immediate sense, it seems to have fixed the problem, but I'll need a few more days to sure. So fingers crossed and I thought I'd ask you experts in the meantime. 

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Yay! So glad your guppies are doing better!

I have an outdoor platy tub with a pond lily that covers nearly the entire surface of the water. Sometimes with a double layer of leaves! That thing is aggressive. I have a sponge filter with an air stone under all that. The platys are thriving and have now had hundreds of fry. So generally, in situations where you have airstones and bubblers (no judgment, those things are fun!) I don’t think covered surface area is an issue.

If you want to know for sure though, go ahead and wait a few weeks for your guppies to recover and then un-fence the plants and see what happens!

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On 9/9/2021 at 7:48 AM, Hobbit said:

Yay! So glad your guppies are doing better!

I have an outdoor platy tub with a pond lily that covers nearly the entire surface of the water. Sometimes with a double layer of leaves! That thing is aggressive. I have a sponge filter with an air stone under all that. The platys are thriving and have now had hundreds of fry. So generally, in situations where you have airstones and bubblers (no judgment, those things are fun!) I don’t think covered surface area is an issue.

If you want to know for sure though, go ahead and wait a few weeks for your guppies to recover and then un-fence the plants and see what happens!

Thanks @Hobbit, it's day two and they are doing better. They're swimming more energetically, their fins are all up, and they're their derpy guppy selves. I can't ever be absolute as to what the cause was. They'd lose energy, all their dorsal fins were clamped, they wouldn't just hover at the top but again low energy. The tailfins would get ragged and then overnight they'd die. It was almost always overnight. That's when I read about how plants take in oxygen at night and it got me thinking the symptoms all pointed to this being the problem. But again, how could it be? I've seen the set-ups  like you have and they cover waayy more surface area than mine did. But something about my tank and set up seems to be different. Thanks for your sharing, it's appreciated.

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I was looking at your setup.  Long low tanks are my favorite.  Try adding an airstone in the center. The co2 and oxygen depletion at night from your plants and floaters coupled with the dead/ low no flow spot in the middle could be contributing to very low oxygen areas. Corralling you floater may be tipping the balance just enough to not stress your fish. If it is that fine of a margin that that adjustment tips it back they would definitely benefit from the airstone in the center maybe suctioned to the wall or a decoration etc.

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Thanks @Guppysnail! I love the long and low tank too, been thinking of upgrading to a 33 long, someday. So you're thinking maybe any airstone in the center and back, correct? I've got my floating plants all bunched up in the back center now to stay away from the sponge filters and still be under the light. I did just bump up the air flow to the bubbler toy in the hope that this helps more (located off-center but still in the mid area of the tank). 

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I'm a broken record here @gardenman, but thanks! That's a great article. I wonder if it didn't play some role in my situation. I do have a lid on my tank and the surface outside of the sponge filters was extremely calm. Now that I've controlled the surface plants and ramped up the toy bubbler I notice the surface is vibrating and the lid is wet, never was the case before. Always misted over the filters but not the front half of the lid. My gut tells me this may be one of a couple issues I have going on but I'm keeping my eyes peeled for any signs of stress in the fish and so far they're doing great on day 3.

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This is one of the main reasons why I like to combine an HOB with sponges.  The HOB outlet tends to flow across the surface and keep the water rolling over and mixing so it’s always bringing new water to the surface and preventing layering from slow turnover.  I know that using only sponges can work, been there, done that, but the HOB (or other pump driven filter) is just that little bit of insurance.

I’ve got tanks with nearly full coverage of floaters and I’ve noticed that if they get too dense, there is more surface film, even with an oversized sponge filter and HOB.  I’ve got mine all corralled to prevent this film from happening over the whole surface.  Sometimes my corral is keeping the floaters away from the sponge filters, but I always make sure there is a good sized area with an open, agitated, water surface.

Now that I think about it, I have a snail culture tank that is a little less productive than the others and it has far more surface coverage with floaters.  I think I’m going to correct that today!

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@Odd DuckThat was a direction I considered going, more for mechanical filtration reasons, early on. I opted not to because I didn't like the look of the HOB's. Not because they're not good and work great. It was solely a visual reason and I thought I could get away from them. But, I made a few other mistakes early on for the sake of visual style that I regretted later and this may be another one I need to concede to. It's a learning process and a balance between wants and needs. Again, thanks for the insight, good thought.

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On 9/10/2021 at 10:36 AM, Chad said:

@Odd DuckThat was a direction I considered going, more for mechanical filtration reasons, early on. I opted not to because I didn't like the look of the HOB's. Not because they're not good and work great. It was solely a visual reason and I thought I could get away from them. But, I made a few other mistakes early on for the sake of visual style that I regretted later and this may be another one I need to concede to. It's a learning process and a balance between wants and needs. Again, thanks for the insight, good thought.

Adding more airstones may solve the issue, too.  Maybe you need a scuba diver?  Or a clam shell?  I want to see what bubbler you have.  😆 😉  There’s nothing wrong with a good bubbler.  Treasure chests hold a lot of air before they open.  That would cause some good agitation when it hits the surface.

I'm teasing, but I really do want to see what bubbler you have.  We’ll all been there, done that.  I’ve been considering trying to find a hollow piece of driftwood in a ragged-topped, stump-like shape and adding an airstone inside it and pretending it’s a volcano.  Ever since somebody told me the petrified wood in my 6 G cube looked like a volcano with the red root floaters above it, I’ve been slightly obsessed.

I’m also kind of trying to figure out a way to make this happen in my 14 G cube since I have kind of a “clump” of driftwood.  I don’t have a sponge in there, yet, but I’ve been planning to add one.  It’s on the list for today, and if I can get the sponge in there just right, it should come up right behind the wood if you’re looking from the front.  I just don’t know how visible it will be since the wood goes up so close to the surface.  Now I wish I had taken the time to make the top look ragged.  I may have to pull that piece and hack at it a bit.

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Ha! Yeah @Odd Duck, check out the pic. It's in the lower left corner, the water wheel (red). It's purely a nostalgia thing for me. The first aquarium I ever saw was in our public library and I was amazed at how this water wheel spun and bubbled. Preschooler age so I was easily impressed. Anyway, I saw it and wanted it in my tank to remind me of those times. Also how cool I thought an aquarium was then, and now.

water_wheel.jpg

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On 9/10/2021 at 11:27 AM, Chad said:

Ha! Yeah @Odd Duck, check out the pic. It's in the lower left corner, the water wheel (red). It's purely a nostalgia thing for me. The first aquarium I ever saw was in our public library and I was amazed at how this water wheel spun and bubbled. Preschooler age so I was easily impressed. Anyway, I saw it and wanted it in my tank to remind me of those times. Also how cool I thought an aquarium was then, and now.

water_wheel.jpg

Nice!  Love it!  My father made a small water wheel as a water feature for their back yard, years ago.  It sat about 2.5 feet tall at the peak.  It was fantastic!

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On 9/10/2021 at 11:32 AM, Odd Duck said:

Nice!  Love it!  My father made a small water wheel as a water feature for their back yard, years ago.  It sat about 2.5 feet tall at the peak.  It was fantastic!

Love it, it's always some little thing that sparks a memory and, in my case, style be damned... sometimes 😉 

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On 9/10/2021 at 11:36 AM, Chad said:

Love it, it's always some little thing that sparks a memory and, in my case, style be damned... sometimes 😉 

Yep!  Your water wheel sparked a memory for me.  I hadn’t thought about that water wheel for decades!  It’s been gone for probably 30 years, at least.

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