Half dozen fish died moving to new tank

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Hi guys, today was the exciting day I got to move my ember tetras, which I’ve had quarantined since Nov (yeah, didn’t plan for it to be that long) from a 5g into a 20g. I set up quite the paradise for them.

Unfortunately they all passed during drip acclimation.

Yesterday I added 1 Tbsp salt to their 5g tank because 1 fish had an issue where it was turning clear with a black stripe (ongoing issue and not ammonia related).

Today I sanitized the drip acc container with 3% peroxide. Nets were sanitized too. This is my standard practice to sanitize things between tanks.  I also rinsed container with tap water in case residual peroxide might harm them. Then, I added 2 (Solo) cups (32 oz) of their tank water to the drip acc container, netted them, and added them to the container. I started drip acclimation (1-2 drops/sec). I draped a towel over the container but left one end of the towel raised (think lean-to tent). I do this to allow them air but also to keep stress down. I did this with the last fishes I acclimated in this container. This also prevents my cats from messing with fish that are acclimating.

Checked back in 50 min. They were all deceased.

Where did I go wrong?

Salted water to non-salted water?

Temp change? 80 to 75

Residual peroxide? (Supposed to be harmless to fish, or so I thought)

Residual tap water on the walls of the container before I added tank water? Seems like if it was there it would be such a low concentration of tap water things (chloramine etc) but idk if that would amount would be enough to kill fishes.

No aeration (I don’t usually aerate drip acclimation containers, but would this species require that? Are they generally sensitive? Then again they made a 2 hr trip home from Aquashella in a bag.)

Or stress?

I am dumbfounded. and heartbroken 

but I want to learn so this never happens again

😭

P.S. Any lashings you deal me will not equate to the guilt I feel

Edited July 24 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea
Updated from 2 cups water to 2 solo cups water

[Tlindsey]

On 7/24/2024 at 9:47 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Hi guys, today was the exciting day I got to move my ember tetras, which I’ve had quarantined since Nov (yeah, didn’t plan for it to be that long) from a 5g into a 20g. I set up quite the paradise for them.

Unfortunately they all passed during drip acclimation.

Yesterday I added 1 Tbsp salt to their 5g tank because 1 fish had an issue where it was turning clear with a black stripe (ongoing issue and not ammonia related).

Today I sanitized the drip acc container with 3% peroxide. Nets were sanitized too. This is my standard practice to sanitize things between tanks.  I also rinsed container with tap water in case residual peroxide might harm them. Then, I added 2 cups of their tank water to the drip acc container, netted them, and added them to the container. I started drip acclimation (1-2 drops/sec). I draped a towel over the container but left one end of the towel raised (think lean-to tent). I do this to allow them air but also to keep stress down. I did this with the last fishes I acclimated in this container. This also prevents my cats from messing with fish that are acclimating.

Checked back in 50 min. They were all deceased.

Where did I go wrong?

Salted water to non-salted water?

Temp change? 80 to 75

Residual peroxide? (Supposed to be harmless to fish, or so I thought)

Residual tap water on the walls of the container before I added tank water? Seems like if it was there it would be such a low concentration of tap water things (chloramine etc) but idk if that would amount would be enough to kill fishes.

No aeration (I don’t usually aerate drip acclimation containers, but would this species require that? Are they generally sensitive? Then again they made a 2 hr trip home from Aquashella in a bag.)

Or stress?

I am dumbfounded. and heartbroken 

but I want to learn so this never happens again

😭

P.S. Any lashings you deal me will not equate to the guilt I feel

Sorry for your loss. I personally had a bad experience with peroxide. 

 

[Guppysnail]

I’m so sorry for your loss. Unless overdosed residual peroxide is not going harm them.  I use peroxide to prevent fungus when I hatch eggs.  I’ve already added the peroxide without noticing many fry had hatched. It did no harm.  
Low oxygen is the first thing that comes to mind.  Stress in fish like in humans causes rapid breathing. The stress color change you saw indicates high stress.  Did you have an airstone in the container?

Remote small possibility exists from dilution of salinity but definitely a small chance. No different than water changing salt out.

That temperature change is not a drastic swing. I’ve already made that swing going plop and drop in both directions without issue.  
 

Im not a fan of drip acclimation but if you choose drip acclimation it should last no more than 15-20 minutes maximum.  
 

I’ m so sorry you experienced this. I understand the heartache of unexpected fish loss. 

[Tanked]

I 'm sorry that happened to you.  The only potential problem I see here is too many fish in too small of a container with too little water.  Netting the fish out would have removed peroxide residue if there was any.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/24/2024 at 10:45 AM, Guppysnail said:

Stress in fish like in humans causes rapid breathing. The stress color change you saw indicates high stress

None of the fish being transferred had a color change. There is one fish that is more on the clear side and that fish is still in the original tank.

No airstone was in the drip acclimation container. I didn’t deem it necessary since fish are often transported, and even shipped, in bags. These fish came in bags from Aquashella

The tank they were coming from had level 1 salt. The tank they were going to, zero salt

I’m so puzzled.

I left the clear one with a buddy so I guess the silver lining is there are 2 survivors of this catastrophe 

 

Edited July 24 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/24/2024 at 10:47 AM, Tanked said:

with too little water

I think I had mentioned in OP I used 2 cups of water. The cups were solo cups, so it was like 32 oz

[jwcarlson]

Sorry to hear about your fish. 😞  Curious as to why you would drip acclimate at all given that the fish are moving within your "system".  Are there any wild differences in parameters?  Going from tank to tank in my own water I've always just netted and dumped unless there's big temperature difference, I'll put them in a container and then dump a couple of cups from the new tank to bring temp up a bit before putting them in.

Edited July 24 by jwcarlson

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/24/2024 at 12:20 PM, jwcarlson said:

Sorry to hear about your fish. 😞  Curious as to why you would drip acclimate at all given that the fish are moving within your "system".  Are there any wild differences in parameters?  Going from tank to tank in my own water I've always just netted and dumped unless there's big temperature difference, I'll put them in a container and then dump a couple of cups from the new tank to bring temp up a bit before putting them in.

I guess I had the understanding that drip acclimating provided a more gentle transition, and the tank temps were 5 degrees apart.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/24/2024 at 6:47 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Today I sanitized the drip acc container with 3% peroxide. Nets were sanitized too. This is my standard practice to sanitize things between tanks.  I also rinsed container with tap water in case residual peroxide might harm them.

First, my condolences for your issue of what you are going through and the losses that you're experiencing. This is something that a lot of us have experienced and unfortunately it does happen. It does not make it easier to experience or go through, but I just mention it as a means of consoling the feelings and thoughts you're going through. I hope we can try to figure out what went wrong.

I don't think peroxide would hard them. It mostly goes after very simple organisms and when it's exposed to air it's a very unstable product, turning back to water fairly easily.

 

On 7/24/2024 at 6:47 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Then, I added 2 (Solo) cups (32 oz) of their tank water to the drip acc container, netted them, and added them to the container. I started drip acclimation (1-2 drops/sec). I draped a towel over the container but left one end of the towel raised (think lean-to tent). I do this to allow them air but also to keep stress down. I did this with the last fishes I acclimated in this container. This also prevents my cats from messing with fish that are acclimating.

Any chance there was soap or something on the towel itself? Was it recently washed and maybe it wasn't fully rinsed or something?

On 7/24/2024 at 6:47 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Residual tap water on the walls of the container before I added tank water? Seems like if it was there it would be such a low concentration of tap water things (chloramine etc) but idk if that would amount would be enough to kill fishes.

Definitely shouldn't be an issue. Especially if you're talking drops. There has to be some sort of contamination or issue preventing them from oxygenating properly for that to happen so quickly. Not using dechlor and having chloramines or major water issues absolutely does kill fish that fast, but as you mentioned I don't think the volumes there makes sense for this to be the cause.

On 7/24/2024 at 6:47 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Salted water to non-salted water?

Very low level, wouldn't matter and you'd be diluting the salt. If the salt "wasn't just salt" and had a contaminant, that might be at play.

On 7/24/2024 at 6:47 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Temp change? 80 to 75

Going colder usually is fine and we've all done this with regards to water changes and to the things that just happen when you're going from a stable temp to something you're trying to match as close as you can and things are slightly off. The real difference on those temps would be the oxygenation in the water itself. There would be a slight difference and if you're dramatically shifting or choking out the oxygen levels with stagnant water or something, that could do what you saw.

I think whatever happened we would have to basically narrow down to not being from the old tank, not really being from the transfer portal (bucket and drip system), but actually being from the new tank and whatever was going on there.  I don't have a gut feeling or anything like that, but I would ask a few questions just to understand the situation better.

How long was the new tank setup for? Was it running with a filter? What is new vs used on that tank and is it possible that anything that was new has oils or residue from manufacturing on those products?

Edited July 24 by nabokovfan87

[Tazalanche]

What was the pH in each?

I doubt it's the issue, but if they were substantially different... like 8.0 to 6.0....

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/24/2024 at 12:49 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Any chance there was soap or something on the towel itself? Was it recently washed and maybe it wasn't fully rinsed or something?

I don’t think so. Also the towel didn’t touch the water. Picture a square box with one flap as a lid. Open that lid 45 degrees. Now picture the lid is the towel and the box is the container the fish were in. Like a lean-to tent. It was just there to provide shade/calmness and deter cats from seeing fish in a container on the floor.

Tank setup and fish have been living it in for 17 days. It was setup with used filter media and I used Prime. New plants, new jungle river sand, and new river rock. 20% water was changed every day for the first week. Day 2 or 3 ammonia showed. The fish were never without Prime. Added pothos to hob, Polyfilter, and a really seeded sponge filter. Ammonia never showed again, nitrite never showed at all. Tests performed every 24 hr. Nitrate has always been present. First test was 30. It went down with water changes. This is because all the tank water was from established tanks and those tanks did have Easy Green, fish, and plants in them. Also initially, mulm from water changes was added, as well as the new tank dosage of Fritz Zyme 7.  Also I did siphon out the tank mulm before adding the fish. Last pH test all tanks were at 7.5 @Tazalanche

Edited July 24 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[govsfabshop]

That sucks to hear! Was that solo cup used for something else beforehand? or maybe something on the cup if it was new, cant imagine there would be being they're safe for human use. Generally when i move stuff around in my own ecosystem i'll just generally back the temp down or up to match the new tank, most my fresh water all run the same temp aside from quarantine so i'll just cool that tank down a few days before moving, but 5 degrees shouldnt make to big of a difference. I'm curious to see if you get it figured out, in my head its gotta be something oddball that we dont normally think about!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/24/2024 at 2:33 PM, govsfabshop said:

Was that solo cup used for something else beforehand?

It was used several times previously for fish tank water.

[jwcarlson]

Was catching them out particularly problematic?  I've lost a rummynose that died from being stressed from it being difficult to catch.  Would be hard to believe that all of them died from that, though.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/24/2024 at 4:11 PM, jwcarlson said:

Was catching them out particularly problematic?  I've lost a rummynose that died from being stressed from it being difficult to catch.  Would be hard to believe that all of them died from that, though.

Not bad. It’s a 5gallon tank so it’s not like they could go far.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/24/2024 at 11:15 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Tank setup and fish have been living it in for 17 days. It was setup with used filter media and I used Prime. New plants, new jungle river sand, and new river rock. 20% water was changed every day for the first week. Day 2 or 3 ammonia showed. The fish were never without Prime. Added pothos to hob, Polyfilter, and a really seeded sponge filter. Ammonia never showed again, nitrite never showed at all. Tests performed every 24 hr. Nitrate has always been present. First test was 30. It went down with water changes. This is because all the tank water was from established tanks and those tanks did have Easy Green, fish, and plants in them. Also initially, mulm from water changes was added, as well as the new tank dosage of Fritz Zyme 7.  Also I did siphon out the tank mulm before adding the fish. Last pH test all tanks were at 7.5

Yeah.... I am going to say this is a very rare and extremely odd occurrence.

If the tank itself is brand new then I would drain it halfway and take a paper towel and clean off the glass / inside area of the tank for any oils or residue. You can run carbon too for a few weeks and try to filter out anything you can't ultimately test for.

I would assume/guess that there is something from the tap or from the tank, if new, that caused the issue that you experienced.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/24/2024 at 5:29 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

If the tank itself is brand new then I would drain it halfway and take a paper towel and clean off the glass / inside area of the tank for any oils or residue. You can run carbon too for a few weeks and try to filter out anything you can't ultimately test for

I could try this, but odd the fish already living in the tank for 17 days haven’t had any issues. 

My husband put all his money on the salinity change issue. He comes from the saltwater hobby and says even small salinity changes can cause losses. I don’t know if the same applies to freshwater, but it could.

Edited July 24 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Whitecloud09]

Ik y’all are talking about the cause and all, but just wanted to say, I am sorry for your loss 🙁 @Chick-In-Of-TheSea.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Thank you @Whitecloud09. I had numerous cries today

 

Here are some tests I just ran.

Left strip new tank

Right strip previous tank @Tazalanche

 

 

tests on new tank. No maintenance was performed today

Brief video of new tank and current residents

Also some Prime may have been in the new tank’s water, and dechlorinators do reduce oxygen levels. That is yet another variable in this and could be a reason why an airstone may have been needed in the drip acclimation container, something @Guppysnail asked about earlier.

Edited July 24 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I found some old threads on the forum here regarding acclimation of fish. People state drip acclimation has concerns of ammonia buildup in the container. People supporting drip acclimation tend to use Prime or similar to counteract it. There were some things such as when air is introduced say, to a bag, there is an ammonia/ammonium conversion that makes acclimation more dangerous, and pH contributed to how dangerous that is. I don’t understand it all completely but I did not use Prime and the ammonia could have built up during the longer drip time that I chose. I didn’t think ammonia could become that dangerous in under an hour. I guess I had misconceptions about drip acclimation, thinking it was safer and more gentle on the fish. 
 

*caution- rant incoming. Feel free to skip*

<rant>
Also folks, I’m convinced my day is cursed. In the morning I found that my last mystery snail had passed of natural causes. Then the fish losses. Then it is my work at home day. The morning I got very little done because I was upset and was conducting funerals..

At lunch we dropped off the dry cleaning. He dropped me at the curb and I walked in to get the clothes turned in. I came out and started walking to the car and got rudely startled and honked at four times. The honker was my husband. I was walking past his car to a car that looked just like his (ok, we had a laugh about that one. So did the old lady that was passing by and quickly figured out my blunder. (And husband corrected me that the other car was a different model. Like I care about the car things. They are just pieces of metal with wheels and stuff, idk).

I suggested ice cream since the day was awful so far and I was on and off crying over my lost fish and snail. The ice cream place was closed.. permanently. We went to another one and were successful (I had one scoop of Insta-Graham and one scoop of Mac Daddy Coconut). FL heat so we ate it in husband’s car. Doesn’t mean it didn’t drip less. It was like a race to eat it, and it dripped on my shirt not once, not twice, but 3 times (too bad we went to the dry cleaner first).  Snarky husband made me a bib out of a microfiber cloth he usually dusts the car with… Once I had the bib nothing dripped. Smh

Got home and internet is down, I could not log back into work. Husband goes to cable co to exchange equipment, stands in a line 13 deep. The neighbors also had “bricked modems”.  I go to the coffee shop and order a hot coffee and resume working. Realize I forgot my mouse and it’s hard to do the things. Also realize there is no working A/C in the coffee shop, and it’s 95 degrees outside. Hours pass. I’m hungry because all I had was ice cream, and the coffee shop only sells muffins, etc - nothing substantial.

Husband calls, internet works. I couldn’t immediately leave because I was on a work call. Finally I head home. A/C in car is nice. Got home. Crawled around under my desk to plug in all the things. Get text from old boss. The replacement I trained for 2 months worked 4 months and put in her notice because her college grades are suffering. Then. Internet fails to work. Again. He has to call customer service and they have to activate this & that because the person at the counter didn’t. Sigh. It comes back up when I have 20 minutes left in my shift. 

I decided not to do any tank maintenance or anything similar today because there is this storm cloud following me around. I refuse to make decisions as well until tomorrow, which will be better I’m sure.

</endrant>

Edited July 25 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[JE47]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea This sounds like a really rough day. I am sure that tomorrow will be much better. Rest in peace fish and snail

[EricksonAquatics]

Wow, you had quite the day! Get some good sleep tonight!

And I’m so sorry for your loss of all those embers. I’ve never kept them but they look like super cute little guys. Your thought of the ammonia/ammonium buildup sounds quite reasonable - I think I’ve heard that before (and that’s why a lot of people shy away from drip acclimation). I don’t have enough experience to really put in my 2 cents, but I’m just so sorry 😞

[reefhugger]

What a dreadful day!  

But what a beautifully written description of a dreadful day.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/25/2024 at 12:59 AM, EricksonAquatics said:

Your thought of the ammonia/ammonium buildup sounds quite reasonable - I think I’ve heard that before (and that’s why a lot of people shy away from drip acclimation)

Yes, I think out of all the variables considered, this was the one that did it. I didn’t realize the difference between bagged fish and non-bagged fish, how the water’s exposure to air causes that reaction. I thought if fish can stay bagged for days on end, a drip container is fine for less than an hour. Anyway, I learned things and that was the point of this thread. 

Everybody has been so kind. Thank you all.

Edited July 25 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Also a couple days ago my friend gave these male guppies to me. She had raised them. (The little guy in the corner of the bag is an orange endler that was living alone in a shrimp tank because he was the last endler. He looked bored and kept staring out of the shrimp tank at us.) I gave her a call and let her know I’d take the other 4 guppies that she has as well. These will live in the tank we’ve been discussing, and they sure as heck will not be drip acclimated!

it’s not exactly the plan I had for the tank, but it will still be good, I think. 

They are in a brief qt now, probably 1 week. I trust the source.

Edited July 25 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea