Questions about cycling.

[Whitecloud09]

Hi everyone. 
Nearing completion of my 20g long planted tank (I THINK). I set it up a month ago or so, have a good amount of plants in there, added dr Tim’s one and only at the start, as well as his ammonium chloride. So the ammonia went up, then nitrite went up all the way to 4 ppm. Then dropped. And the ammonia dropped. And they were both 0 for a week, so yesterday morning I added ammonia, today ammonia and nitrite are at this.

Ammonia: .50 ppm.

Nitrite: .25 or a lil less ppm. 
Nitrates, 10 ppm. 
Ph is 7.5 ppm.
 

So this is what I think I am supposed to do. Add ammonia if both ammonia and nitrite go down within 24 hours, then it is cycled. Am I  right? Or totally wrong. Idk, that is what I did for my other tank that is thriving now. 
My question, since ammonia and nitrite did NOT drop in 24hrs do I add more ammonia tomorrow? What would I do? Am I close to being done? Or not?
TIA 🙂

[lefty o]

if the tank is processing ammonia, its good to start stocking  lightly.

[Pepere]

How much ammonia did you dose?

[Whitecloud09]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:51 PM, Pepere said:

How much ammonia did you dose?

2 drops per gallon. So 40 drops. I did it to equal 2 ppm.

 

On 7/13/2024 at 7:42 PM, lefty o said:

if the tank is processing ammonia, its good to start stocking  lightly.

Really? I did not know that. Do I need to do wcs during this time? So the ammonia will not harm the fish correct? What about shrimp or something? Ik that it is better to have more established tanks, but I’ve heard several shrimps experts say it does not matter. Nvr kept shrimp and would love too. @lefty o.

[lefty o]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:44 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

2 drops per gallon. So 40 drops. I did it to equal 2 ppm.

 

Really? I did not know that. Do I need to do wcs during this time? So the ammonia will not harm the fish correct? What about shrimp or something? Ik that it is better to have more established tanks, but I’ve heard several shrimps experts say it does not matter. Nvr kept shrimp and would love too. @lefty o.

the whole idea behind "cycling" is nothing more than establishing the nitrifying bacteria in the aquarium. (its really not a cycle, a cycle you start with nothing, go all the way around , and end up exactly where you started) if you have bacteria established in the aquarium, and it is processing waste(ammonia in this case), you have a viable aquarium for stocking. as for shrimp, you really want to get a few months on the tank. now if you establish your new aquarium with a ton of stuff from another established aquarium, that can short cut the whole process.

[Whitecloud09]

On 7/13/2024 at 8:49 PM, lefty o said:

the whole idea behind "cycling" is nothing more than establishing the nitrifying bacteria in the aquarium. (its really not a cycle, a cycle you start with nothing, go all the way around , and end up exactly where you started) if you have bacteria established in the aquarium, and it is processing waste(ammonia in this case), you have a viable aquarium for stocking. as for shrimp, you really want to get a few months on the tank. now if you establish your new aquarium with a ton of stuff from another established aquarium, that can short cut the whole process.

Ok. So what fish do you recommend? And also do you think I should add ammonia anyway? Thanks for the help so far @lefty o.

[Pepere]

On 7/13/2024 at 8:44 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

2 drops per gallon. So 40 drops. I did it to equal 2 ppm

Ok, so in 24 hours your tank was able to metabolize 1.5 ppm of ammonia.  To some nitrate and 0.25 ppm nitrite.  In essence the nitrite metabolization is a bit lessthan the ammonia…. 
 

so, you have both types of bacteria you need, but the amounts of them is not as strong as you ideally want, but they will increase their colony size with time and food.

That food can come in the form of more ammonia drops and time if you wish to wait longer.   Or you can do water change to remove ammonia and nitrite and add a low bioload of livestock and feed lightly and and they and the food will provide the ammonia to feed the bacteria…

 

Some people argue to keep the fishless cycle going until you can fully metabolize a 2 ppm ammonia challenge to 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites within 24 hours of dosing..  it is a metric that you can point to, but I dont know how much science is behind it as a needed metric.

 

[Whitecloud09]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:30 PM, Pepere said:

Ok, so in 24 hours your tank was able to metabolize 1.5 ppm of ammonia.  To some nitrate and 0.25 ppm nitrite.  In essence the nitrite metabolization is a bit lessthan the ammonia…. 
 

so, you have both types of bacteria you need, but the amounts of them is not as strong as you ideally want, but they will increase their colony size with time and food.

That food can come in the form of more ammonia drops and time if you wish to wait longer.   Or you can do water change to remove ammonia and nitrite and add a low bioload of livestock and feed lightly and and they and the food will provide the ammonia to feed the bacteria…

 

Some people argue to keep the fishless cycle going until you can fully metabolize a 2 ppm ammonia challenge to 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites within 24 hours of dosing..  it is a metric that you can point to, but I dont know how much science is behind it as a needed metric.

 

EXACTLY WHAT I NEEDED. Thanks a ton @Pepere, great info. I will add ammonia not tomorrow but the day after and see. If it does drop to 0 within 24hrs I will do a large water change and add fish in a week or so. And feed not to much. Lightly. Thanks @Pepere.

[lefty o]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:50 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

Ok. So what fish do you recommend? And also do you think I should add ammonia anyway? Thanks for the help so far @lefty o.

pick the fish you want. stock lightly, and add over time. if i tell you my whole honest opinion about fishless cycle, and adding ammonia ..... people would lose their mind.

[Pepere]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:45 PM, lefty o said:

pick the fish you want. stock lightly, and add over time. if i tell you my whole honest opinion about fishless cycle, and adding ammonia ..... people would lose their mind.

Both methods can work.  There is no question that fish waste is a great source for seeding beneficial bacteria in its own right.  Probably a more reliable source of seeding than bacteria in a bottle products.  I have not found a bacteria in a bottle product that gave me any confidence it gave me value for the money…

Stocking and feeding lightly with daily testing to keep an eye on levels and water changing if they are rising works well, but “stocking and feeding lightly” is rather sunjective…

[Lonkley]

You've come this far, just wait another week. It should go to 0 ammonia and nitrite and have some nitrates in 24 hours. 

Plants can muddle the picture by consuming the ammonia.

As for water change, if it starts to get low 6ph, do a change, or if you start adding fish do a large change so that the ph returns to what they will normally get.

But you started a fishless cycle, you may as well wait until it's done. Nitrite to nitrate just takes a bit longer to grow.

Also save your sanity and measure by ml for that much water.

 

[johnnyxxl]

I just added tons of plants to get the plants established before I started with the fish.  I have to check my journal but I know that I still really have a light stock.  The key is that we want to bring in enough fish to keep them from being stressed yet few enough that your bacteria can adjust to the extra work.  I added kulhi loaches and cories which didn't even add to the test results and eventually added black ruby barbs, and Tiger Barbs this was over the course of several months.  But I had trouble finding the fish I liked.

[Whitecloud09]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:45 PM, lefty o said:

pick the fish you want. stock lightly, and add over time. if i tell you my whole honest opinion about fishless cycle, and adding ammonia ..... people would lose their mind.

Thank you @lefty o! 

 

On 7/14/2024 at 5:51 AM, Pepere said:

Both methods can work.  There is no question that fish waste is a great source for seeding beneficial bacteria in its own right.  Probably a more reliable source of seeding than bacteria in a bottle products.  I have not found a bacteria in a bottle product that gave me any confidence it gave me value for the money…

Stocking and feeding lightly with daily testing to keep an eye on levels and water changing if they are rising works well, but “stocking and feeding lightly” is rather sunjective…

True, it can be more reliable, but I honestly just like to stick with what I know, which is the fishless cycle, with bottled ammonia and BB. It worked very well for my other tank (besides a really long ammonia spike which I now think I know what happened, actually). Thanks 

On 7/14/2024 at 6:46 AM, Lonkley said:

You've come this far, just wait another week. It should go to 0 ammonia and nitrite and have some nitrates in 24 hours. 

Plants can muddle the picture by consuming the ammonia.

As for water change, if it starts to get low 6ph, do a change, or if you start adding fish do a large change so that the ph returns to what they will normally get.

But you started a fishless cycle, you may as well wait until it's done. Nitrite to nitrate just takes a bit longer to grow.

Also save your sanity and measure by ml for that much water.

 

Yeah I am not super patient, but thankfully the bottle of ammonia is makes quick drops so doesn’t take a long time tho.

I am probably just gonna finish it. 

On 7/14/2024 at 7:44 AM, johnnyxxl said:

I just added tons of plants to get the plants established before I started with the fish.  I have to check my journal but I know that I still really have a light stock.  The key is that we want to bring in enough fish to keep them from being stressed yet few enough that your bacteria can adjust to the extra work.  I added kulhi loaches and cories which didn't even add to the test results and eventually added black ruby barbs, and Tiger Barbs this was over the course of several months.  But I had trouble finding the fish I liked.

Thanks @johnnyxxl, and everyone for the great info!

Edited July 14 by Whitecloud09

[Whitecloud09]

@Pepere, @lefty o, @johnnyxxl. @Lonkley,Question.

I added the ammonia Friday as you know, the nitrite was .25 yesterday right, but now it is 1 ppm. How come it rise in 24 hours, I am confused. Also ammonia went DOWN to .25. ? Thanks 

Edited July 15 by Whitecloud09
Added info

[johnnyxxl]

The bacteria is breaking it down and converting it into plant foods.

[Pepere]

On 7/15/2024 at 5:54 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

added the ammonia Friday as you know, the nitrite was .25 yesterday right, but now it is 1 ppm. How come it rise in 24 hours, I am confused. Also ammonia went DOWN to .25. ?

The bacteria that metabolizes ammonia to nitrite seems t establish itself quicker than the bacteria that metabolizes nitrite to nitrate.

 

When I was establishing a beneficial bacteria colony, the tank could metabolize 2 ppm ammonia to zero ammonia in 24 hours in a few weeks, but those nitrite to nitrate converting bacteria took about 6 more weeks to grow to the point that a 2 ppm ammonia challenge could be metabolized to 0 ammonia 0 nitrites…

[EricksonAquatics]

Sounds like you aren’t fully cycled quite yet. The ammonia processed into nitrite fast, which means you’re halfway there. But the nitrite hasn’t processed into nitrate yet, which is what you want.

[Lonkley]

On 7/15/2024 at 2:54 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

I added the ammonia Friday as you know, the nitrite was .25 yesterday right, but now it is 1 ppm. How come it rise in 24 hours, I am confused. Also ammonia went DOWN to .25. ? Thanks 

That's whats supposed to happen. Ammonia becomes Nitrite that becomes Nitrates.   So the ammonia was broken into nitrite.  That nitrite still needs to grow bacteria to convert to nitrate.  That process takes longer to grow, usually about twice as long as ammonia->nitrite.

Think of your beneficial bacteria as pets that need to be fed.

Definitely give your tank more time and keeping dosing ammonia to 2ppm.

Edited July 16 by Lonkley

[Airborne 82nd]

On 7/15/2024 at 6:33 PM, Pepere said:

The bacteria that metabolizes ammonia to nitrite seems t establish itself quicker than the bacteria that metabolizes nitrite to nitrate.

Bingo nitrAtes are slow pokes they will tell you when your getting there. I don't see a change right at 24hrs. but 48 for sure. Keep in mind you have to keep feeding the bb every 48hrs or so until you put fish in. The day I got my fish my trAtes were about 100 I didn't care until I had my fish then I did a huge wc and put the fish in. Now I don't know how all your plants wil play a part in this.

 

 

[Whitecloud09]

On 7/15/2024 at 9:16 PM, Lonkley said:

That's whats supposed to happen. Ammonia becomes Nitrite that becomes Nitrates.   So the ammonia was broken into nitrite.  That nitrite still needs to grow bacteria to convert to nitrate.  That process takes longer to grow, usually about twice as long as ammonia->nitrite.

Think of your beneficial bacteria as pets that need to be fed.

Definitely give your tank more time and keeping dosing ammonia to 2ppm.

Thank you, for reading this, I remember many things from the last time i did it. Just clarifying. Thanks! @Lonkley.

[jwcarlson]

On 7/13/2024 at 8:45 PM, lefty o said:

pick the fish you want. stock lightly, and add over time. if i tell you my whole honest opinion about fishless cycle, and adding ammonia ..... people would lose their mind.

That it's pretty silly and that you can put full fish load in on day one if you're not afraid of a water change hose and a bucket?  Even with expensive fish and not "throw aways".

😁

[lefty o]

On 7/16/2024 at 7:39 AM, jwcarlson said:

That it's pretty silly and that you can put full fish load in on day one if you're not afraid of a water change hose and a bucket?  Even with expensive fish and not "throw aways".

😁

i know youre being silly, but i do fish in, and dont use "throw away" fish, nor do i need to do daily water changes, and i dont put the fish in any harmful conditions.

[jwcarlson]

On 7/16/2024 at 8:15 AM, lefty o said:

i know youre being silly, but i do fish in, and dont use "throw away" fish, nor do i need to do daily water changes, and i dont put the fish in any harmful conditions.

I'm not being silly at all.  Fish-in is the way to go!

[Whitecloud09]

I was told somewhere else that adding ammonia and nitrite to get to 0 within 24hrs is not a requirement. And that as long as nitrates present, and ammonia and nitrite is gone, your cycled. Is this correct? @Pepere, @lefty o, @johnnyxxl? Anybody?

[johnnyxxl]

On 7/18/2024 at 7:10 PM, Whitecloud09 said:

I was told somewhere else that adding ammonia and nitrite to get to 0 within 24hrs is not a requirement. And that as long as nitrates present, and ammonia and nitrite is gone, your cycled. Is this correct? @Pepere, @lefty o, @johnnyxxl? Anybody?

You are correct, I more seasoned my tank than cycle but yes