gravel vs planted substrate

[Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics]

Hey I'm gonna be setting up a planted 29 gallon with guppies and at least half or more of the plants I want to get are heavy root feeders like dwarf sag, crypts, and sword plant. but I'm trying to decide between gravel, aqua soil or eco complete. I really like the look of the gravel compared to the planted substrates but I don't get the benefits, could I cap the planted substrates with gravel and it work the same? will the plants do fine with just root taps in gravel or is it just better to spend the money on planted substrate? what would you do and what's your personal preference? last thing is what's better eco complete or aqua soil? I have hard water so the aqua soil would benefit the plants a bit.

[Fish Folk]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:53 PM, Jacob Hill said:

Hey I'm gonna be setting up a planted 29 gallon with guppies and at least half or more of the plants I want to get are heavy root feeders like dwarf sag, crypts, and sword plant. but I'm trying to decide between gravel, aqua soil or eco complete. I really like the look of the gravel compared to the planted substrates but I don't get the benefits, could I cap the planted substrates with gravel and it work the same? will the plants do fine with just root taps in gravel or is it just better to spend the money on planted substrate? what would you do and what's your personal preference? last thing is what's better eco complete or aqua soil? I have hard water so the aqua soil would benefit the plants a bit.

I won't be answering all of your questions here. Just sharing a perspective. I like to use old, used, biologically loaded Black Diamond Blasting Sand on the bottom 1.5 -2 inches. That I cap with a substrate designed for plants: Active-Flora, Eco-Complete, or more recently this:

I find that larger substrates always rise to the top of smaller / finer substrates. So the BDBS stays down, and the Carib-Sea stays on top. I have two other tanks like this with BDBS on the bottom, and black Eco Complete on top. All are very healthy aquariums. Rooted plant roots move nicely through the lower layers of BDBS -- which doesn't clump up and get hard like other types of fine sand. I do use Root Tabs underneath Valisneria and Amazon Swords. 

Here's a totally unrelated video I made tonight about this 29 gal. Saffron Shiner tank. Just lets you see the aquarium "alive" in action...

 

[Patrick_G]

Substrates are hard to figure out. Respected aquarist seem to achieve great results using all the different types. I think aquasoil is generally the easiest but it’s expensive and it sounds like you don’t like the look. You can cap it with whatever you want, sand, gravel, eco complete. That gives the benefits of the enriched soil with the look of whatever you want on top. Like @Fish Folkmentioned the lager aquasoil pieces can work their way to the surface and ruin the look if you have a light colored top layer. 
 

Another option is Safe-t-sorb. It’s cheap, looks good and has a high CEC value so it’ll hold onto the nutrients you add via fertilization. @Seattle_Aquarist has some beautiful tanks that use it. 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Patrick_G

[Torrey]

I haven't had the resources to try either the Auqasoil or the Eco...

I also have hard water (affectionately, our liquid rock) that has had a wildly varying KH this year... leading to lots of opportunities to learn new things about keeping plants and animals happy.

Substrate in my tanks is either large pond stones/gravel/lava rock over UGF (sometimes a section, sometimes an entire tank), pool sand at one end of a river tank (T4'), hydroballs (with and without UGF), and a blend of soil/oyster shell/BDBS/crushed lava rock partially capped with gravel in my Walstad inspired tank.

All have pros and cons.

If inexpensive is the goal, along with the look of the gravel that you prefer, mixing up some safe-t-sorb with gravel and then capping with gravel would be pretty effective. Using the plastic zippered largest filter bags with some soil in the bag, under gravel is also a great trick for minimizing the mess, while reaping the benefits in plant growth (keep the bags ~1" thick, and cap with gravel, or can mix lava rock with dirt in the bags for a little more lift in the back, then cap with gravel).

I don't have pictures of the capped bag method yet, because I am stubborn and wasn't convinced it was a viable option until I followed a friend's success (they were inspired by my first ever success with red plants and no CO2 last year, in liquid rock but didn't want the floating particulates from dirt). Joke is on me, a year later malaysian trumpet snails dug up all my red plants and snacked, meanwhile my friend's red plants rooted into the bags and the snails couldn't relandscape...🙄 So now their tank looks better than mine.😁

[Penny]

Here's my 2 cents.... all my tanks are planted with tropica plant substrate/aquasoil capped with and it cost a fortune (but in my opinion totally worth it) i did it as recommend on the pack. however, I've been watching a youtuber called MD Fish Tanks and he does a really cool thing which i will definitely do in future. He uses these all plastic mesh laundry bags and half fills them with the aqua soil, zips them up and then just places the pillows wherever he will be planting heaviest. The roots penetrate the bags no problem and end up super stable but no aquasoil makes its way to the surface. It also makes nice stable pads to place large rocks and driftwood on whilst spreading the load. When he breaks down a tank he can just remove the sand/ gravel cap and reuse the bags of soil which are already loaded with bacteria and it makes it super clean and efficient. It looks like he uses about 1/4 of what you'd use if you did it the normal way. And he pops root tabs in the bags too. You can get the bags on amazon. I think its a win win situation.  Good luck!

 

[Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics]

On 6/19/2022 at 9:51 PM, Patrick_G said:

Substrates are hard to figure out. Respected aquarist seem to achieve great results using all the different types. I think aquasoil is generally the easiest but it’s expensive and it sounds like you don’t like the look. You can cap it with whatever you want, sand, gravel, eco complete. That gives the benefits of the enriched soil with the look of whatever you want on top. Like @Fish Folkmentioned the lager aquasoil pieces can work their way to the surface and ruin the look if you have a light colored top layer. 
 

Another option is Safe-t-sorb. It’s cheap, looks good and has a high CEC value so it’ll hold onto the nutrients you add via fertilization. @Seattle_Aquarist has some beautiful tanks that use it. 

 

thanks ill look into that, what did you use in your 75 gallon that's under your post, it looks really nice and healthy. 

[Torrey]

On 6/20/2022 at 2:26 PM, Pepere said:

I got Diana Walsteds book Ecology of the planted aquarium.  
 

she advocated for miracle grow organic topsoil seived to remove wood fiber, than soaking it for 24 hours and removing floating matter.

 

I did it, will never do it again.

 

it is a lot of work, and by the time you throw away what is seived and floated, you save nothing overaquasoil..

 

It will be aquasoil for me from now on.

And I did use mesh bags to put in the resulting mix and the aquasoil after I can out of the home made stuff.   
 

Th bags work well to contain everything especially when planting and gravel vaccing after.  I heartily endorse it.  Neutral brown gravel substrate over the bags.  1.5 inches is better than 1 inch for planting.  1 inch continually had plants floating to the surface.

I skipped the work part. Never sieved.... First tank I did it in... was a mess🤣

But the growth and lack of algae? Totally sold me on the concept, just convinced me there had to be a less messy method. If anyone likes tannins, don't sieve. I let the tank establish for a month before adding plants:

 

I really enjoyed the evolution of the tank over the course of the year. Just got tired of arguing with the malaysians regarding landscaping decisions.

[Jeff]

I keep going back and forth on this subject. There are so many people who swear by aqua soils.

But, Cory has always said - nutrient rich substrates always end up losing their nutrients...and you'll have to eventually replace with some kind of fertilizer(s) anyways.

What am I missing about aqua soils / nutrient rich substrates? 

[Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics]

On 6/20/2022 at 4:15 PM, Jacob Hill said:

thanks ill look into that, what did you use in your 75 gallon that's under your post, it looks really nice and healthy. 

@Patrick_G 

[Torrey]

On 6/20/2022 at 8:44 PM, Jeff said:

I keep going back and forth on this subject. There are so many people who swear by aqua soils.

But, Cory has always said - nutrient rich substrates always end up losing their nutrients...and you'll have to eventually replace with some kind of fertilizer(s) anyways.

What am I missing about aqua soils / nutrient rich substrates? 

Aqua soils/nutrient rich substrates *can* work long term as long as you are looking at your tank and making decisions for the long haul. If you are going for short term rewards, faster plant growth, and a tank with wow factor up front (ie: ADA and other scape competitions) an aqua soil is the best option.

If you want a tank you can set up and have stable for 5 years or longer, you want to set up for success, and that *includes* how are you going to maintain a cycle where nutrients that are absorbed by plants are returned to the substrate?

I have sand in a tank with the same hydrogen sulfate producing bacteria found out in nature (lovely black spots in my white sand). If the tank gets out of balance, it could develop into a lethal problem for my fish, but the malaysian trumpet snails are relandscaping my tank regularly because they have a very valuable role of turning over the substrate and moving mulm and fish waste into deeper areas of substrate for the plant roots to use. It's not the snails fault that I faile to observe nature long enough before I set up the tank, the snails are working with the plants, amphipods, bacteria and fish to establish homeostasis in the tank. It's the silly human with the god-complex that initially set it up in a non-sustainable way, so while my tank inhabitants get a good chuckle at my learning experiences, I am learning where I have a responsibility to leave things alone, and where I have a responsibility to fix my mistakes.

Ultimately, all of our choices are about which learning opportunity we want to embrace.

[Philosophical fishkeeping, 101]

[Patrick_G]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:52 AM, Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics said:

@Patrick_G 

The tank in my sig has Fluval Stratum under aquasoil. It definitely grows rooted plants, but not nearly as well as I’d like. I’m not ready to blame the substrate, I think the problem might be a combination of medium intensity light and too much shade near the base of the plants. I have another, much shallower tank with just Fluval Stratum and the plants seem to do better. 

[Patrick_G]

On 6/20/2022 at 7:44 PM, Jeff said:

What am I missing about aqua soils / nutrient rich substrates? 

A negative is the price, it’s crazy how much a bag of ADA costs. Fluval is a little better but not much. 

A positive is their ability to grow the low, dense carpeting plants. It’s hard to get that type of plant to start and spread on an inert type. 
 

I don’t think there’s one right or wrong answer on substrate. It’s probably more a matter of trying a few different types and then going with what you like best. 

 

[BeeD]

I don't think you should have any problem capping any of the planted substrates with regular gravel. Most rooted plants will require you to truly 'plant' them down into the substrate, so their roots will find the good stuff. 

[Mmiller2001]

Aqua soil hands down is the easiest to grow plants in. Sadly, at some point it will need to be swapped out when it begins breaking down into mush. 

I recommend Landen Aqua soil. It's a cheaper option than the more expensive soils. Last for longer and is heavy enough to be vacuumed if need be. Joe Harvey and GreggZ both use Landen. 

Blasting sand is a great option and will be my go to substrate in larger tanks. It's really good stuff!

Here's Joe Harvey's 2017 winning tank using Blasting sand. And Greggz's tank with Landen.

I believe Joe has mentioned Landen can last about 5 years.

Now personally, I hate Eco Complete and would not recommend it to anyone. But it does work, but just okay.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics]

@Mmiller2001 wow Those are some beautiful tanks I just have one question, what's blasting sand? I hear people talking about it but I don't get how sand can be good for plant growth, is it nutrient rich? Please explain. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:32 PM, Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics said:

@Mmiller2001 wow Those are some beautiful tanks I just have one question, what's blasting sand? I hear people talking about it but I don't get how sand can be good for plant growth, is it nutrient rich? Please explain. 

It's Black Diamond Blasting Sand from Trackor Supply Company. It's coal slag. 10 bucks for 50 pounds. Good stuff, but you have to rinse it real good before using. It's inert and will last decades.

[Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics]

On 6/22/2022 at 8:29 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

It's Black Diamond Blasting Sand from Trackor Supply Company. It's coal slag. 10 bucks for 50 pounds. Good stuff, but you have to rinse it real good before using. It's inert and will last decades.

then do people just use root tabs to fertilize it?  

[Mmiller2001]

On 6/22/2022 at 6:36 PM, Jacob Hill-Legion Aquatics said:

then do people just use root tabs to fertilize it? 

Some do, but it is not necessary. Proper column dosing is all that's need 98% of the time.

GreggZ is proof you don't need tabs. Before he swapped to Landen he used blasting sand. He never used root tabs and his tank was just as amazing as the one above.

[Patrick_G]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:14 PM, Pepere said:

The bag is a big expense to buy, but using small mesh bags and only placing the aquasoil in the areas you are intending to have rooted plants means you don’t use a lot of it.

I’ve seen MD Fishtanks use this method. I think it has some merits, but it seems like the bag of soil needs to be placed at a very specific depth. Deep enough so that the plants stay put in the sand layer, but shallow enough so the roots can get nutrients from the soil. 

I’ve used a similar trick that I picked up from MD. I filled the mesh bags with gravel to build up some height before adding a layer of aquasoil and finally a layer of sand. The negative is that bits of black soil migrate up and spoil the look of the sand. 

[Torrey]

On 6/22/2022 at 7:14 PM, Patrick_G said:

I’ve seen MD Fishtanks use this method. I think it has some merits, but it seems like the bag of soil needs to be placed at a very specific depth. Deep enough so that the plants stay put in the sand layer, but shallow enough so the roots can get nutrients from the soil. 

I’ve used a similar trick that I picked up from MD. I filled the mesh bags with gravel to build up some height before adding a layer of aquasoil and finally a layer of sand. The negative is that bits of black soil migrate up and spoil the look of the sand. 

If you put a bag of soil on top of the bags of gravel/lava rock, I thnk you'll be happier with the end result: no mess, the desired height, and less expensive if using aqua soil or similar. Also works with the Miracle Gro Organic, and eliminates the need to sift or clean the soil (so no waste) and seems to be lasting longer, nutrient wise, despite the Malaysians not being able to turn the soil over. They turn the BDBS over plenty😅

[Darth Mollusk]

In my 20 long ("The Shire") I've just got gravel. My Amazon swords and cryptocorynes do really, really well. They just need root tabs added. I had gravel on hand when setting up, and I hadn't known about the wonderful world of the fancier substrates. Once I learned more, I debated switching out the substrate for something more expensive and designed for plants. Then I realized that would be silly. All my plants do amazing in than tank, why change what isn't broken? 

I can't speak to dwarf sag, but crypts and swords can do great in gravel in my experience. I believe Cory posted a YouTube video saying much the same. I'm also running a crappy, 15+ year old fluorescent bulb, but here we are with lush growth 🤷‍♂️

If you want to do gravel, you can absolutely find plants that will do well in gravel. Most of the plants you listed do! (Again, I haven't grown dwarf sag so I couldn't say either way)

It's a modest little hole in the ground of a tank, but my snails find it cozy and it's home 😆. (Also, I just had to move my cryptocorynes so they're mad at me🤦‍♂️)

Edited June 23, 2022 by DarthMollusk