What is killing the hobby?

[JoeQ]

I've always browsed when in and around pet/aquarium stores and noticed how bare shelves were.  Today was a culture shock tho, im in the market for simple algea eaters (nerites/otos/ect) and everywhere, everything seems absolutely empty! Online sources, chain pet stores, even my local aquarium store! Which got me thinking, what's really killing our hobby

Is it:

Supply chain issues? 

Staffing issues at your local store?

That new law put in place? 

And, how does this hobby move forward? 

[Jeff]

Here are my ideas for improving / moving the hobby forward. They're all geared towards the average parent or adult that isn't aware of FishTubers / forums:

-Big box stores having a plant or two in each little aquarium when you pick out fish would help promote - "hey, that looks nice, maybe I should pick up a plant for my aquarium" mental imagery

-All in one aquarium companies showing appropriate fish in the aquarium on the packaging - not giving false hope and having a neon tetra and a goldfish in the picture of a nano aquarium, for the average person wanting one

-Getting rid of all glass bowls from shelves

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Jeff

[Jenja]

I'm sure all 3 are factoring in. This is also a hobby - after the past couple of years the number of people willing to spend money on any hobby when the cost of food and gas are rising have likely dramatically dropped.

That said I don't frame it as the hobby is being killed or dying, simply that the mainstream popularity has decreased. Eventually it will surge again, I'm sure.

[Tihshho]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:26 PM, Jenja said:

I'm sure all 3 are factoring in. This is also a hobby - after the past couple of years the number of people willing to spend money on any hobby when the cost of food and gas are rising have likely dramatically dropped.

That said I don't frame it as the hobby is being killed or dying, simply that the mainstream popularity has decreased. Eventually it will surge again, I'm sure.

This is exactly it. With inflation, general costs of living going up people are prioritizing what they are spending money on. This hobby is one of the first to get hit. I saw this time and time again while working in the industry.

The other issue is shipping costs are still high. Shipping isn't based solely on size, but weight, so lots of LFS's big and small are getting hit because they cannot all afford to get new items in with the current freight prices. It's great for a business to be in a state with local distributors, but getting things flown across the country or even imported the prices are higher than ever. Businesses are picking and choosing what they can sell to be part of their orders list. Bread and butter species being the top of the order, and the rest being determined on low DOA chances. Other issues are that some distributors are limited on their stock avaialbilty because of freight costs and are not getting the same quality from their importers. The owner of one LFS I know had a conversation about it and they mentioned how some of the stuff they were getting in were tiny in comparison to what they used to get. Some stuff is showing up so small it doesn't ship well, or they are so young they don't have adult coloration and they sit in the store so long before they even get a couple sold. Some of those being Praecox Rainbows showing up at 1/2" sizes, Ember Tetras showing up a 3/8" and various livebearers at 1/2". Stores cater to the people off the street the most as Jeff mentioned, so they need to stock what sells. If you're getting in species that don't have color that are silver, most people will skip them. Hobbyists on the other hand might clear them out, but that's less of a chance compared to their normal patrons. Then when you have baby livebearers who look to have been raised in the store tank as unplanned births (which is normal in most LFS's), no one wants to buy the tiny platy for the same price they could get a larger one at a chain store. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Tihshho

[Anon]

I'm pretty sure the hobby is alive and growing. Availability in every industry is low for the same reasons (shipping shortages, employee shortages, people being home and driving demand, etc.). You're seeing empty shelves because supply can't meet demand, not because there is no demand.

 

The hobby is going to continue growing through social media/youtube. But I believe we'll continue to see more online vendors and hobbyists shipping fish rather than new retail stores. It just makes more sense.

[mouseturd13]

I have noticed our Pet smart which is the only pet store in my area is very bare lately as well. I feel like part of it in my area is just lack of hobbyists. I’ve lived here almost five years and only seen one well cared for tank and one other tank that was not looking great. I don’t have a single friend in the hobby and there’s not club here either. I think the issue in my area might partly be climate. Very very dry and hot summers which can mean a lot of water evaporates. We also have extremely hard water. A few businesses in town have some what I think are chiclid tanks but other than that I don’t know anyone really into the hobby. Such a bummer. I also think part of it is shipping and availability of items to the store plus the lack of demand since most people are now back to work.  

[Jeff]

 

On 5/11/2022 at 12:43 PM, Anon said:

I'm pretty sure the hobby is alive and growing. Availability in every industry is low for the same reasons (shipping shortages, employee shortages, people being home and driving demand, etc.). You're seeing empty shelves because supply can't meet demand, not because there is no demand.

 

The hobby is going to continue growing through social media/youtube. But I believe we'll continue to see more online vendors and hobbyists shipping fish rather than new retail stores. It just makes more sense.

Amen to this ^

IMO, having higher gas prices means people are willing to travel less, and spend more money on hobbies again - like at the beginning of the pandemic; just ordering more online like others have said. Especially now that people's lives are coming back together, and the unemployment is lowering more and more.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Jeff

[Jawjagrrl]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:43 PM, Anon said:

I'm pretty sure the hobby is alive and growing. Availability in every industry is low for the same reasons (shipping shortages, employee shortages, people being home and driving demand, etc.). You're seeing empty shelves because supply can't meet demand, not because there is no demand.

 

The hobby is going to continue growing through social media/youtube. But I believe we'll continue to see more online vendors and hobbyists shipping fish rather than new retail stores. It just makes more sense.

I think there will be some dropoff as more people get back to a different routine post-covid. So many animals adopted and tanks started during that time - I was chatting with a vet on chewy.com about an issue with my dog and their first question was "is she a pandemic puppy?" (no.) But some will stay, even though the current inflation is putting the pinch on all of us in ways seen and unseen. Cory mentioned in the livestream this evening that it now costs him "37 to ship a 48" fluval light to FL (I made dure to get mine to GA right before the rate increase). Pet stores are less inclined to stock items more people are buying online out of convenience.

Something we *might* see in the coming year or more is an increase in adult hobbyists vs families setting up a tank for their kids - a big chunk of the US market compared with Europe. Will be interested to see if this is something @Cory experiences/documents in his trip there. I watch a number of european channels on the hobby and the stores there seem much more geared towards "serious" hobbyists vs the spongebob tank with some dalmation mollies for the kids (not that there's anything wrong with that). Marketing to those groups has got to be pretty different.

[Tihshho]

On 5/11/2022 at 8:53 PM, Jawjagrrl said:

I watch a number of european channels on the hobby and the stores there seem much more geared towards "serious" hobbyists vs the spongebob tank with some dalmation mollies for the kids (not that there's anything wrong with that). Marketing to those groups has got to be pretty different.

Stores in some parts of Asia made this move long ago. The issue is that not a lot of hobbyists in the US stick to the hobby, lots of ebbs and flows with the times, so a physical store catering to the niche (yes high end plant tank folk are niche) within the hobby isn't guaranteed business. It's easier to expect to sell a 10 gallon to a parent who is getting it for their kid for them getting good grades or them showing interest in the hobby and looking somewhere to start with colorful gravel and some simple fish. Can't speak for current times, but 90% of the customers I ever dealt with were looking for something cheap and didn't do their research. They happened to pass by, see the store and want to have same day gratification with some number in their head that they expected to spend. Once they saw what we had to offer in our displays, it would always start with "how much would it cost to set that up" and when we gave them a number they always seemed shocked. Out of those people maybe 15% of them moved down that path by piecemealing things here and there or buying a setup that day to setup when they got home and spending the waiting time of the cycle to research. The other 75% looked at small tanks with preconcieved notions of if it held water they could just keep the fish they wanted in it. Hours a day, multiple days at a time were spent educating and some took that and made the decision to start safely and/or do their research and the others just wanted to leave with the bowl with a goldfish until they found out we intentionally didn't carry bowls. 

[Jawjagrrl]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:09 PM, Tihshho said:

Stores in some parts of Asia made this move long ago. The issue is that not a lot of hobbyists in the US stick to the hobby, lots of ebbs and flows with the times, so a physical store catering to the niche (yes high end plant tank folk are niche) within the hobby isn't guaranteed business. It's easier to expect to sell a 10 gallon to a parent who is getting it for their kid for them getting good grades or them showing interest in the hobby and looking somewhere to start with colorful gravel and some simple fish. Can't speak for current times, but 90% of the customers I ever dealt with were looking for something cheap and didn't do their research. They happened to pass by, see the store and want to have same day gratification with some number in their head that they expected to spend. Once they saw what we had to offer in our displays, it would always start with "how much would it cost to set that up" and when we gave them a number they always seemed shocked. Out of those people maybe 15% of them moved down that path by piecemealing things here and there or buying a setup that day to setup when they got home and spending the waiting time of the cycle to research. The other 75% looked at small tanks with preconcieved notions of if it held water they could just keep the fish they wanted in it. Hours a day, multiple days at a time were spent educating and some took that and made the decision to start safely and/or do their research and the others just wanted to leave with the bowl with a goldfish until they found out we intentionally didn't carry bowls. 

So you see the majority of forum members here as niche? Perhaps. I'd love to see the hobby in the US move more towards that model, and perhaps advocates like Cory will continue to expand interest in the hobby at a higher level that what you describe (which I totally understand and agree is the case).

[Tihshho]

A lot of the folk in this forum are part of the niche of the hobby. Key thing here, we have interests in it that lead us to being forum members to learn and grow from one anothers experiences. We also are talking to those who appreciate what this hobby has to offer and the fun and beauty found within. Someone off the street who see's a store or a family having dinner that happens to see a LFS next to their dinner location very rarely includes someone that is part of a forum and does their research. The internet is a wonderful place where we are able to grab information (mind you we have to vet a lot of it as anyone can post anything online) and learn from it. Back in my days it was a lot of reading from books, magazines, talking to other local hobbyists at club meetings/events, talking to a LFS employee/owner who had been in the hobby for a long time and had experience and anything else on the internet was limited based on how it hadn't evolved yet and we were using phone lines for connection to it... I can't tell you how nice it was to hear someone come in saying they were looking for something obscure such as Apistos. Back in the early 2000's Apisto's were not as common as they are now. On top of that, it was amazing to have someone ask you had a specific L number pleco in stock. 

People on this forum take to heart what the ACO slogan is, "Enjoy Nature Daily" and part of that is the whole natural type tank with plants, fish and inverts in one balanced ecosystem. Sure, we do have some members with colored gravel and non natural decor, but you know what everyone has their own wants and enjoyments in the hobby. 

I've been to a store overseas that was solely focused on ADA style setups. Rimless tanks lined the wall of their hardware section, glass lilly pipes in display cases, ADA you name it on 80% of their stock, gorgeous display tanks and rows of prestine tanks with plants forsale others species only tanks for fish being sold. The lighting and display of the store was surreal. Prices there were drastically cheaper than they were in the US, but still much more than stuff that most of us in the US would buy just walking into a store. One couple came in to get another setup and a second set of lily pipes for their display so they could rotate them out for cleaning. I swear they left with what would have been over $3k USD sale at the time if they purchased it in the states.

Very rarely did I ever see any purchase in the thousands running a US store, unless it was a custom acrylic tank that we were getting built for them and installing. Most of those were tanks being built for local professional sports athelete homes or for high end businesses. If someone came in to buy something on the higher end, it was generally a longtime customer who had been in the hobby for a long time that either decided to upgrade or knew exactly what they were after. 

There used to be a store in the US that catered to ADA stuff like what I saw overseas and it was a breath of fresh air walking in there while still being in the states. They had plants that I had only seen in the ADA books or from the pictures from the ADA competitions around the world (mainly in Asia and Europe) and various ADA stuff as well as Taiwanese clone glass products. Prices on everything were much higher than most brick and mortar stores, definitely way out of the big box store prices. I saw tons of people walk in and lots of them turn around as soon as they saw the prices. The people who stayed knew what they were looking at and appreciated every second in the store and left with some set of glass something, a tank, ADA substrate or dosing regiment. Others left with tons of plants or a few fish. This store had nothing that the big box stores had, no livebearers, no goldfish, no large cichlid species, no rimmed tanks, no colored gravel, filtration was all Eheim canisters or stainless ADA canisters. They survived for only a few years before they couldn't stay open only providing the niche high end stuff. Per talking with the owner who moved and restructured the store to be more walk in sales friendly, he said that 60% of their customers left when they couldn't find anything 'starter' quality or their kid didn't want/need something this fancy and just wanted a simple tank to hold some guppys with some plastic plants. 

We all want different things, but when it comes to a business we can't limit a business to such a small niche. Limiting your audience limits your sales. 

 

[CornAndCrawlers]

I'm having deja vu. I'm new to the aquarium hobby, prior to this I used to be big into stamp collecting hobby and literally every forum and online group had a "what's killing our hobby" post popup every other day. 

 

[Atomicfish]

You wanna know whats killing the hobby. Its the people. It seems as there is a lack of fish stores in alot of towns and alot of people don't have knowledge or the will power to run a bussiness that caters to the fish keeping world. Wisconsin just lost a major fish store a few years ago in milwaukee. Hoffer's Tropic Life Pets.

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/11/2022 at 9:04 AM, JoeQ said:

Is it:

Supply chain issues? 

Staffing issues at your local store?

That new law put in place? 

And, how does this hobby move forward? 

It takes a lot of effort these days to get the fish from the farm to the store. When that happens on time (slightly difficult) it means that they need a bit of TLC when they arrive.  Most of the stores, especially big box, might not QT things the way the co-op does and that leads to a lot of disease on the system or a row of tanks.  The animals are stressed.  So even if they DO make it to the store, they might not last.  Then you have someone who might not even be normally involved with that section of the store who is now tasked with taking care of that particular section.  Yes they can do the job, but it's also something where they would be following the methods that the company says they should be following.... which we all know might not be up to date and provide the best environment for the fish themselves. 

Right now, that ends with empty shelves, higher cost, higher waste, and a bad experience for everyone along the way.

It will get better. 

I can't wait until I walk into the big box store and see the betta tanks Cory used instead of reading reddit posts about people working at the big box store not knowing what to do with all the dead cups of fish they have in the back and keep receiving more with full shelves and too many cups to change water on.

[gardenman]

I think part of the problem is the chains have largely killed off the mom and pop stores. In my youth (I'm now 63) there were fish stores everywhere in South Jersey and Delaware. Pretty much every town had a fish store. Locally we had a store owned by a guy named Woody that was pretty nice. We had the Evan's who owned Evans Tropical Fish in Salem and they bred their own fish in their basement and sold them from an enclosed back porch.  There was the Mantua Tropical Fish and Pet Island owned by Maryann and her husband. Maryann would all but make you sign adoption papers to buy a fish. If you didn't know how to care for a fish and she didn't feel you could give it a good home, she wouldn't sell it to you. They used to drive to New York once a week to a wholesaler where they'd go in with their own nets and bags and catch what they wanted.  There was Tisa's pet shop in Cherry Hill. There was Chick and Barb's in Vineland. Northern Delaware had a ton of shops. It may have been the heyday of the tropical fish hobby here in South Jersey.

Department stores sold fish. WT Grants used to have a big selection of fish. Woolworths, K-Mart, and Walmart sold fish for a while. In my youth/teens it was hard to go ten miles in any direction without running into a fish store. They were often tucked away or standalone stores, but they were everywhere. Then the chains moved in. Petco and Petsmart were typically in shopping centers making them more convenient. They often had lower prices. The mom and pop shops lost customers and went away. I only know of three independent places these days in the area. There used to be twenty or more.

[Tanked]

There is a natural ebb and flow to this hobby.  Some kids see a fish and want a fish, some move on to aquariums.  As they grow some will abandon their fish for activities outside of the home.  Later when their lives become more stable some will again take up the hobby in earnest.  The economy, pandemics, etc. add to the ebb and flow.  The biggest impediment to the hobby is the big box department store. Unfortunately these stores are also the introduction to fish keeping for many of us.  Live inventory is a high risk low profit item.  They will stock the the most inexpensive varieties.  The employee that assists you will sell you what you think you need/want, and may have been stocking socks or groceries minutes earlier.  Their money is made in selling the paraphernalia.

[Tanked]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:21 AM, gardenman said:

Department stores sold fish. WT Grants used to have a big selection of fish. Woolworths, K-Mart, and Walmart sold fish for a while. In my youth/teens it was hard to go ten miles in any direction without running into a fish store. They were often tucked away or standalone stores, but they were everywhere. Then the chains moved in. Petco and Petsmart were typically in shopping centers making them more convenient. They often had lower prices. The mom and pop shops lost customers and went away. I only know of three independent places these days in the area. There used to be twenty or more

We had all of those in SW Ohio as well.  They were your introduction to fish keeping and the only place to go for most of us.  We did have a few really good local fish only stores, but they could not last.  I may still have 1 fish only store near me but it has an extremely limited $$$ inventory.

[Hannah Parker]

I remember when I would browse fish at the beginning of Covid, my LFS started selling them very young and as babies for the same price. I was told breeders were sending them out earlier to keep up with demand. Now, this past week I was having a horrible time trying to find a couple mystery snails! It was very weird, I've never seen them out of stock before. 

[Flumpweesel]

The more we buy on line from Amazon ect effects directly the chance of LFS remaining profitable in our area's and once they are gone they are very unlikely to return. I am very lucky I have a lot of good LFS close to me, seems almost a standard for me that garden centres will have an aquarium department and a cafe so make for quite a nice trip out.  

I only buy online in an emergency or for items I know they won't stock ( impellers and O rings).  The internet is squeezing all the retail stores especially now when you price check in the store. Isn't an extra couple of quid worth it for having the store in the first place.  All the shops are struggling at the moment I hope we find a way of thinking differently about shopping before its to late. 

The hobby isn't dying probably more people than ever keeping fish and certainly far more species are available but it is changing and we will have to adapt as it does. The increasing costs of shipping and stock will probably mean less choice in stores as the best way for them to save is to reduce number of lines held sadly this then drives us back to on-line shopping.  

I am planning a trip to a store this weekend to restock fish food and I will no doubt put money into the cafe and as it is spring the garden centre to.

 

[Baphijmm]

On 5/12/2022 at 8:44 AM, Tanked said:

We had all of those in SW Ohio as well.  They were your introduction to fish keeping and the only place to go for most of us.  We did have a few really good local fish only stores, but they could not last.  I may still have 1 fish only store near me but it has an extremely limited $$$ inventory.

There used to be a couple, but of course I've not lived in that region for upwards of ten years (twenty if you don't count the ~8 month stint in 2011). Alas, I can't remember their names. XD There was one in Mt. Healthy on Hamilton Ave that used to have a huge tank in the back filled with sharks. (EDIT: Aquatics and Exotics! And they're still open apparently!) And there was another... I keep wanting to say it was on, or at least very near the Ohio River, but unfortunately I don't remember much of anything about that place. I do remember it being absolutely wonderful, though. I'm sure COVID killed a lot of them.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Baphijmm
Found the name of one of the fish stores I referenced.

[Blaha]

The chain stores have been bare, the local stores have been fine. I think wholesalers don't want to sell as much to the chains that pay next to nothing compared to a local. 

I'd say mostly supply chain, but also some stores may be limiting livestock alongside staffing issues because if they don't have the staff to care for the animals then they can't stock them. Or they may "shut down" a certain number of tanks to reduce the amount of tanks they need to maintain. 

My local pages of trading and whatnot are still jammed with people trading fish, moving bred fish. There is more people getting rid of tanks than looking, but also many of the people getting rid of tanks are have upgraded to a bigger one or it broke and they replaced it and are looking for someone that wants to fix it to take it.

As far as the Lacey amendment goes it still has only been introduced and read twice. It hasn't been voted on or passed in the house or senate (according to congress.gov), and even if/when it does it has a clause of a 12-18 month observation period to see what volumes of what creatures are being imported vs raised domestically, and how much is moving between states

Edited May 12, 2022 by Blaha

[Atomicfish]

Its all about the money it costs too much money to run a fish keeping store these days.

[Jawjagrrl]

On 5/11/2022 at 10:38 PM, Tihshho said:

We all want different things, but when it comes to a business we can't limit a business to such a small niche. Limiting your audience limits your sales. 

My background is advertising and branding, so I totally get what you're saying. I was lucky to have a parent keeping multiple tanks in the early 60s... like a rack of Meta tanks with the metal frames (I wish I had taken when he offered them to me in the 90s). I had a great LFS then that managed to balance both groups well.

I guess my curiosity comes from how the markets developed so differently in the US vs elsewhere - to over-simplify, the adult vs kid hobby? Lots of interests make it to the US that began in Europe and Asia without such a radical shift in demographic. The answer is probably to be found in my own (former) industry I suspect. There has to be a way to make higher end equipment more affordable in the US - I think if more adults were exposed to the kinds of tanks many members here keep, they might think about the hobby differently.

My spouse is new to this in his 60s and getting the fire in his eyes about it. He brought up a new tank we have in a meeting at work last week... to find the other 3 men (all over 50) had kept fish before in large tanks. I had fun guessing which person kept the aggressive sa cichlids, who had the fancy livebearers and who loved all the catfish and loaches like me. One even had natives collected on weekend kayaking runs. Now I want to find out why each got out of the hobby. 

I dream of walking into a place like Green Aqua one day. Where was the ADA level store you mentioned? I don't even have an LFS within 50 miles - they all converted to reptiles. I do envy the shops that the Dutch and English scapers I watch show on their channels, especially Mark's store on MD Fish Tanks.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Jawjagrrl

[Tihshho]

On 5/13/2022 at 9:52 AM, Jawjagrrl said:

Where was the ADA level store you mentioned?

One overseas was in Hong Kong, the one in the US was in Hawaii.

[Jawjagrrl]

On 5/12/2022 at 10:21 AM, gardenman said:

I think part of the problem is the chains have largely killed off the mom and pop stores. In my youth (I'm now 63) there were fish stores everywhere in South Jersey and Delaware. Pretty much every town had a fish store. Locally we had a store owned by a guy named Woody that was pretty nice. We had the Evan's who owned Evans Tropical Fish in Salem and they bred their own fish in their basement and sold them from an enclosed back porch.  There was the Mantua Tropical Fish and Pet Island owned by Maryann and her husband. Maryann would all but make you sign adoption papers to buy a fish. If you didn't know how to care for a fish and she didn't feel you could give it a good home, she wouldn't sell it to you. They used to drive to New York once a week to a wholesaler where they'd go in with their own nets and bags and catch what they wanted.  There was Tisa's pet shop in Cherry Hill. There was Chick and Barb's in Vineland. Northern Delaware had a ton of shops. It may have been the heyday of the tropical fish hobby here in South Jersey.

Department stores sold fish. WT Grants used to have a big selection of fish. Woolworths, K-Mart, and Walmart sold fish for a while. In my youth/teens it was hard to go ten miles in any direction without running into a fish store. They were often tucked away or standalone stores, but they were everywhere. Then the chains moved in. Petco and Petsmart were typically in shopping centers making them more convenient. They often had lower prices. The mom and pop shops lost customers and went away. I only know of three independent places these days in the area. There used to be twenty or more.

I lived in DE for many years - even though many improvements have been made in equipment and fish availability since then, in many ways this was the golden time for the hobby. I miss that interaction around the fish counter. Dean has spoken about this before too.