Stumped and frustrated...

[Martin]

Hey gang,

Hope all is well in each of your respective corners of the universe.  About 3 months ago, I posted about sudden and (to this day) unexplained mass losses to my 20G long, heavily planted tank... roughly 20+ neon tetra and 6-10 amano shrimp.  The tank had been established about 8 months without any issues and one day, everyone started going belly-up over a period of about 2 weeks.  Every last water parameter was the same as usual (pH, nitrite/nitrate, GH/KH, temperature) with the regular PWCs.  Some of you kind folks recommended checking ammonia, copper, and dissolved O2, which I also did.  Ammonia was trace, there was no copper, and dissolved O2 was right at 8.0, which is what the package said to keep O2 levels at minimum.  Given this, I tried to address the O2 just in case, even though none of my fish have ever shown any of the signs of low oxygenation, and installed small power heads to increase surface agitation.  I left the tank alone with the 5 surviving tetra for a few months, hoping "time would heal all things".

The surviving neons and 2x mystery snails went on with life without issue for about 2 months so, I decided it was time to move forward.  This time, I decided to bring a few guppies into the mix since they tend to be a little hardier.  I restocked the tank back up to 12 neon tetra (that's including the 5 survivors) and added a male and 3x female guppies.  Since I brought them home about 2 weeks ago, everything was fine for about 1 week, then the tetra started dropping like flies.  It started off as maybe 1 dead neon every morning, then a jaw-dropping 6 in one night.. I'm now down to 3 neons left.  I noticed most of the time I found them, the bellies of the dead tetra appear eaten.  I had not observed any aggressive behavior from the guppies, however I have noticed the neons stopped swimming carefree as they used to and were now hiding among the plants.  I can't rule out foul play nor can I say that the dead weren't snacked on after they were already gone.  Today, I watched another neon engage in "death float" in a struggle to swim straight and he did not appear harmed in any way.  I lost the male guppy along the way as well.  Note, during this time, one of the female guppies had fry about a week ago, which I have isolated, but still in the same tank, and they all appear healthy with no apparent deaths.

I don't know if I need to be considering diseases, but I don't see anything to suggest any sort of disease.  All the fish seem happy and lively, and dead the next morning.  I also would have thought the fry would be affected quickly, but they are fine.  I'm completely stumped and just don't understand.  Any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.  As usual, thanks so much in advance.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Martin

[Jeff]

Did you QT / medicate any of your fish throughout any of this process? 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:07 PM, Martin said:

The surviving neons and 2x mystery snails went on with life without issue for about 2 months so, I decided it was time to move forward.  This time, I decided to bring a few guppies into the mix since they tend to be a little hardier.  I restocked the tank back up to 12 neon tetra (that's including the 5 survivors) and added a male and 3x female guppies.  Since I brought them home about 2 weeks ago, everything was fine for about 1 week, then the tetra started dropping like flies.  It started off as maybe 1 dead neon every morning, then a jaw-dropping 6 in one night.. I'm now down to 3 neons left.  I noticed most of the time I found them, the bellies of the dead tetra appear eaten.  I had not observed any aggressive behavior from the guppies, however I have noticed the neons stopped swimming carefree as they used to and were now hiding among the plants.  I can't rule out foul play nor can I say that the dead weren't snacked on after they were already gone.  Today, I watched another neon engage in "death float" in a struggle to swim straight and he did not appear harmed in any way.  I lost the male guppy along the way as well.  Note, during this time, one of the female guppies had fry about a week ago, which I have isolated, but still in the same tank, and they all appear healthy with no apparent deaths.

You might have something that came in with neon tetra disease, and this can affect other species I believe.  That being said, let's take a step back and try to diagnose things correctly.

1. Can you please post a photo of the tank itself, specifically so we can see your filtration setup, thermometer setup, hardscape, etc.
2. You mentioned the parameters for a lot of the water tests, what is the temperature? If possible, please post the values ppm for your water parameters.
3.  Is it possible that the tank had some soap or oil or something that was accidentally introduced during a water change?  Was there any reason for sensitive species to be affected in such a way to cause a wave of deaths?

[Martin]

Thanks for the assistance all.  I've posted a photo at the bottom of the post.  To answer your questions:

Quote

Did you QT / medicate any of your fish throughout any of this process? 

Thanks for bringing this up, I had completely forgotten.  No quarantine was done, not for lack of desire, more so due to lack of a QT tank/space.  I had thought about this previously, but did not consider it heavily given the first wave of deaths had occurred 8 months in without any new livestock added.  No medications at all.

 

Quote

You mentioned the parameters for a lot of the water tests, what is the temperature? If possible, please post the values ppm for your water parameters.

pH: 6.8 to 7.0
Nitrite/nitrate: 0/20ish
Ammonia: 0.5
GH/KH: 30/80
Temp: 74
O2: "8" (The test doesn't specify a unit of measure, only that a freshwater tank should be kept at 8 or above.)

I forgot to mention in my previous post, I use a HOB filter that is meant for a 10G tank.  I used to have floating plants that could not stand the rather violent waves created by one designed for a 20G.  When originally setting up the tank, I tested the water parameters religiously to make sure this was viable and figured the amount of live plants would balance out the filtration.  I change the filter regularly and parameters have always remained unchanged since its initial setup, so I don't THNK that is the issue?

 

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Is it possible that the tank had some soap or oil or something that was accidentally introduced during a water change?  Was there any reason for sensitive species to be affected in such a way to cause a wave of deaths?

Highly unlikely.  I keep all of my aquarium supplies in the Sterilite containers seen below the tank, away from any possible contaminants.  I do have 3 kids, but none of them are in the habit of messing with the tank.

 

Quote

You might have something that came in with neon tetra disease, and this can affect other species I believe.  

I had considered this originally too, but I didn't see any with the telltale "spot" that would suggest it.  Can NTD develop in an established tank without being introduced from an outside source?

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/7/2022 at 5:44 AM, Martin said:

That is such a beautiful tank!
 

On 5/7/2022 at 5:44 AM, Martin said:

pH: 6.8 to 7.0
Nitrite/nitrate: 0/20ish
Ammonia: 0.5
GH/KH: 30/80
Temp: 74
O2: "8" (The test doesn't specify a unit of measure, only that a freshwater tank should be kept at 8 or above.)

I forgot to mention in my previous post, I use a HOB filter that is meant for a 10G tank.  I used to have floating plants that could not stand the rather violent waves created by one designed for a 20G.  When originally setting up the tank, I tested the water parameters religiously to make sure this was viable and figured the amount of live plants would balance out the filtration.  I change the filter regularly and parameters have always remained unchanged since its initial setup, so I don't THNK that is the issue?

 The only value it looks like to me is going to potentially cause issues is the GH value.  https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/ph-gh-kh
 

Can you ask the local store where you're purchasing the fish from what their values are?  What is the value you're getting directly from the tap, what about after 24 hours of aeration?

Because this is a 20L aquarium I do believe the HoB is going to be an issue and there are potentially some dead spots. Can I ask you to clarify what you mean by "rather violent waves" of the filter.  What is the oxygenation test that you're using?  What is your media in the filter and how is it setup? Maybe there is a way to reduce the turbulence but keep the flow for this water volume. (I see the pump on the top left of the tank and that is honestly giving you a lot of oxygenation) If you didn't have that secondary flow source, I would really think that the flow on this tank is just very low. 

In terms of the "map" of the flow this is what I am seeing:

 

Purple arrow = the flow from your secondary pump that is centered toward the front of the tank. This doesn't provide a ton of flow to the back of the tank, especially where the heater is located. So right now you might have a hot spot where that heater is located, while the rest of the tank might have a different temperature. You can place your thermometer next to the heater grate and then move it to the other corner of the tank and compare results.  This could also decrease the life of your heater.

Second loop is very much to the side of the tank and as you specified that filter is undersized for this tank.  This flow is going to be very much towards the far end of the tank and not really helping with the center / left regions of the tank.  A fish can basically show you that flow is an issue if you see them moving to the higher flow region of the tank often, or if you see them retreating to a different part of the tank to escape the flow. 

Does this tank have lids?  One method to help with your issue of the violent output on the filter might be to side mount that HoB so it outputs the long direction of the tank instead of the short direction.

 

On 5/7/2022 at 5:44 AM, Martin said:

I had considered this originally too, but I didn't see any with the telltale "spot" that would suggest it.  Can NTD develop in an established tank without being introduced from an outside source?

I honestly don't have experience with this disease. I can point you to this video from cory on the topic and the species. Hopefully it helps.
 

 

 

[Flumpweesel]

I had some random fish deaths nothing as catastrophic as yours just a few unexplained deaths of seemingly healthy fish however I did discover my heater was cracked and there was a fair amount of charge leakage so do double check all equipment is operating correctly. Leakage can be felt as a weird tingle when you're close to it.

[Mmiller2001]

GH is too low and the tank is under filtered. I would triple tank turn over and if you are not going to quarantine your fish, I would at least feed Seachem Kanaplex and Seachem Focus per directions. A cheap GH booster like Seachem Equilibrium can be used, but there are better option to boost GH.

I'd imagine the stressful environment played a large hand in amplifying disease. Most likely a bacterial infection that quickly spread.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Martin]

@nabokovfan87, thanks so much for taking the time to provide such a detailed response; I appreciate it greatly.  To answer your questions:

Quote

Can you ask the local store where you're purchasing the fish from what their values are?  What is the value you're getting directly from the tap, what about after 24 hours of aeration?

I'll have to check on these at it has been some time since I have checked my tap water.  When I started my first tank, I obsessed with my parameters until I learned I should not be trying to chase numbers (at least not obsessively).  From that point, I just started to work with what I have.  I do have some leftover WonderShells if you think I should dump them in.

Quote

Can I ask you to clarify what you mean by "rather violent waves" of the filter.  What is the oxygenation test that you're using?  What is your media in the filter and how is it setup? 

I had originally purchased and tried multiple HOBs that were designed for 20G tanks, but the output seemed so fast that the surface of the water was like a wake after motorboat rolled through.  I've been keeping fish for maybe 1.5 to 2 years now, so maybe it is just my own inexperience and that is supposed to be normal?  I had downsized because, at that time, I had a LOT of red root floaters and wacky currents like that are bad for them.  I had tried everything to try to slow down the output, such as placing two filter cartridges and decreasing the flow rate as low as possible.

The brand of O2 test is a Salifert O2 test (https://www.amazon.com/Salifert-OXPT-Oxygen-Test-Kit/dp/B00NMI6BP0/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=salifert+o2&qid=1651969418&sr=8-2).  The filter media is the run-of-the-mill filter cartridges that are made for that brand of filter (TopFin, https://www.amazon.com/Silenstream-Refill-Power-Filters-Supply/dp/B087V6XRPF/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=top+fin+10g+filter+cartridges&qid=1651969554&sprefix=topfin+10g+fi%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-3).  It is setup the "normal" way?  Sorry, not sure if there are other, more creative ways to put the cartridge in the HOB. 😄

Regarding the flow of the tank, thank you, that was all very helpful and things that I had neither considered nor knew that I needed to consider.  I actually have a total of 4 of the pumps pictured there.  Would placing a second pump directly beneath the HOB return to circulate water back to the left side of the tank be a good option?  The guppies to tend to like to swim against the flow of the pump, though, from the their behavior, I think it is more just playfulness?  They don't seem to have any aversion towards the other parts of the tank.

Quote

Does this tank have lids?  One method to help with your issue of the violent output on the filter might be to side mount that HoB so it outputs the long direction of the tank instead of the short direction.

I do have a glass canopy for the tank, but I stopped using it some while back.  It was just for convenience as the light has a very low profile and I would have to move it to open the canopy to feed the fish.  I'm open to trying another filter if need be, but at the same time, I'm trying to nail down what we think the chief issue is.  The big question mark for me is just that the tank was good and fine for about 8 months with no new factors/changes just prior to crash.  I would have thought issues with filtration and such would have shown signs during water testing and much sooner?  I could also just be an idiot. 🤣

@Flumpweesel, thanks for the suggestion, the heater doesn't seem to be having any issues.

@Mmiller2001, thanks to you as well, I'll have to look into those products as those are two SeaChem products I've never heard of.  I do have some equilibrium on hand, but will hold off until I look into that other stuff first.  I'll have to try and figure out a solution to the whole quarantine thing.  Trying to find space for another tank is my chief issue.

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/7/2022 at 6:42 PM, Martin said:

Trying to find space for another tank is my chief issue.

When you use Seachem Focus, it will allow you to bind meds to food. This way, you can target medicate without dosing the entire tank. Also, feeding meds is more effective than dosing the water column. This can be a very targeted method when a QT tank is unavailable. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Brian]

Ok tank looks great, art work behind it looks wonderful.   Love it.

according to the Aquarium Co Op heater.    Temperature is low for neons.  First and second die off could be two different causes and totally non related and  we are looking for one reason to explain it all.   
Good Luck 

[Brian]

Oh I forgot to mention I don’t think it was caused by low oxygen levels.  But, when testing for oxygen levels in your aquarium I would test maybe an hour or so before turning on the lights.   
Good Luck 

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/7/2022 at 5:42 PM, Martin said:

I had originally purchased and tried multiple HOBs that were designed for 20G tanks, but the output seemed so fast that the surface of the water was like a wake after motorboat rolled through.  I've been keeping fish for maybe 1.5 to 2 years now, so maybe it is just my own inexperience and that is supposed to be normal?  I had downsized because, at that time, I had a LOT of red root floaters and wacky currents like that are bad for them.  I had tried everything to try to slow down the output, such as placing two filter cartridges and decreasing the flow rate as low as possible.

You can create a "holder" of sorts for floating plants or use that same method to keep the flow itself from disrupting the surface too badly (see photo below).  There are a lot of videos on youtube on how to reduce the output disruption for fish like bettas, but I think running the HoB filter on the side of the tank might fix a lot of the issue you've had with too much flow at the output.  I also recommend looking up how to "upgrade" your filter away from using cartridges.  This will naturally go ahead and reduce the output flow slightly and might be enough to fix the issue you're having.   You'll also have better overall long-term housing for beneficial bacteria, which just means that the tank and fish will adapt a bit better if you do have a spike in ammonia.  You do have ammonia in your water and you really shouldn't. So my assumption here is going to be that the tank isn't really cycled fully or robustly enough to help fight off ammonia spikes.  A simple tweak, run the tank for a few weeks, then we can test again shortly after feeding and see if that resolves your ammonia showing up.

Looking up your hang on back cartridges, it might actually have flow adjustment as well already built in.  Here's a good breakdown of how you can modify the filter, based on the way it functions it looks like your best bet is going to be to fill it up with sponge that is cut to fit.
 

 

On 5/7/2022 at 5:42 PM, Martin said:

Regarding the flow of the tank, thank you, that was all very helpful and things that I had neither considered nor knew that I needed to consider.  I actually have a total of 4 of the pumps pictured there.  Would placing a second pump directly beneath the HOB return to circulate water back to the left side of the tank be a good option?  The guppies to tend to like to swim against the flow of the pump, though, from the their behavior, I think it is more just playfulness?  They don't seem to have any aversion towards the other parts of the tank.

I don't think you need *that much* flow in your tank. but having your heater placed in a good spot for flow is pretty important. Try moving the HoB filter to the side wall and then try moving your exiting pump to the back corner near your heater.  That should help to give you a better dispersion for the output of the HoB and feed water towards the input of the HoB as well.  If you don't like the setup, you can always move things back, but it might be worth a shot to try it out.
 

On 5/7/2022 at 5:42 PM, Martin said:

I do have a glass canopy for the tank, but I stopped using it some while back.  It was just for convenience as the light has a very low profile and I would have to move it to open the canopy to feed the fish.  I'm open to trying another filter if need be, but at the same time, I'm trying to nail down what we think the chief issue is.  The big question mark for me is just that the tank was good and fine for about 8 months with no new factors/changes just prior to crash.  I would have thought issues with filtration and such would have shown signs during water testing and much sooner?  I could also just be an idiot. 🤣

The only real issue with side mounting is that your light might not have a place to hang,  Which most likely means that isn't an option.  Let me know if that is the case. you can of course verify the HoB you do have (for the higher heater) and determine if the one you have does have flow control.  At full blast the output might be too strong, but reducing it to say.... 80% might fix the issue you were having, or we can talk about building a weir type of thing or something like....

On 5/7/2022 at 2:43 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

GH is too low and the tank is under filtered. I would triple tank turn over and if you are not going to quarantine your fish, I would at least feed Seachem Kanaplex and Seachem Focus per directions. A cheap GH booster like Seachem Equilibrium can be used, but there are better option to boost GH.

This is going to be the easiest way to fix up your GH.  I'm sure some people here can help or you can find videos / directions on youtube that hopefully clarify how to read the seachem directions without the chemistry degree you sometimes need to have.

Again....

Once you have these few things sorted out, you can go ahead and run some more water tests and give the tank time to build up some bacteria to fight ammonia and have the nitrogen cycle take hold a bit better.

[Torrey]

@Martin I am concerned that ammonia of 0.5 ppm has been present, *and* before making an assumption I would verify with another test.

Good to see you decided to stop chasing water parameters and work with what you got, however that doesn't mean reduction in testing and validating the test results. (If that is what happened, I don't want to assume, I am merely explaining my full thought process out loud).

Most tanks don't really qualify as 'seasoned' until somewhere between 6 months and a year of age. In that time period it is perfectly normal for various algaes to develop, grow, and then die back. The algae itself helps process ammonia to keep it out of the water column: Fish eat food, then release waste in the form of urea (ammonia and fecal matter) which is either processed by bacteria into nitrites or consumed by plants (including algae) as a more bioavailable fertilizer (another good reason to feed a variety of quality foods is to ensure neither plants nor animals develop nutritional deficiencies).

If you talked about your fert dosing schedule, and what you are using to fertilize your plants, I missed that.

When you say GH is "8" is that 8 drops on an API test? 8 ppm? Some other measurement? 

Depending on your source water, your testing method, and a few other variables, there is a lot of room here for misinterpretation of data.

@nabokovfan87 gave you my favorite link for improving filtration. Most of the manufacturer supplied filters use carbon, which delays the beneficial bacteria development to process ammonia into nitrites, and then the second type of bacteria to process nitrites into nitrates. Carbon also removes medications and plant fertilizers from the water. I suspect you, your fish, and your plants will all be happier after you retrofit your HOB.

I love the new strips from the Co-op for testing water parameters. They save me time, and don't hurt to use. I still use my API tests and shake the bottles and the test tubes to ensure I am getting accurate results, and I pay for tap water testing from a professional lab about once a year (and that's a great way for me to confirm my strips and my API reagents are accurate). It also gives me more in depth information, like iron, lead, copper, and petroleum levels in my tap water. (And giardia one time, fun, fun, fun).

If you can share that information, we can be of more service by finetuning the nuance in our suggestions of how to fix problems.

Also, some electrical shorts are not registered on our skin the same way they can affect fish. I recommend anyone who has equipment (like heaters, or powerheads, or pumps) that require electrical equipment to be in contact with water, to invest in a low cost voltage meter to check for shorts. If otherwise happy fish suddenly end up dead for absolutely no obvious reason, or happy fish suddenly change behavior, we tend to look at illness (we have medicines and want to use them) or a bully in the tank (we have all known a bully) and frequently overlook the potential for an intermittent stray electrical current (we don't feel the shock when we put our hands in the water so the fish couldn't possibly be getting shocked).

I'm not saying that's what is happening, I am saying a voltage meter to test the water is the best way to rule it out so you have more information to work with (90% of working in the ER was ruling things out until we had an accurate diagnosis).

[Brandxn]

Any change in food or water chemicals?

[Martin]

Sorry for the delay all... whirlwind few days.  Happy belated Mother's Day to all you fantastic moms out there!

@nabokovfan87, thanks again for your insight and taking the time to verbalize it all.  To address your comments:

Quote

You can create a "holder" of sorts...

I actually do have something like this already made.  It is pretty moot at this point as I removed the floating plants from that tank.  Also, I had shy'ed away from using it as I figured I was limiting the surface agitation of the water and possibly hindering oxygenation.  I'm dumb in this area and don't really know how much agitation is needed for proper O2 diffusion so I tried to play it safe.  Also, you are correct about the current HOB having a flow rate switch.  It's not really an issue for this HOB since it is the 10g HOB.  It was more a problem with the 20g ones as those seemed pretty high speed even at lowest setting.  Now that I've removed the floating plants, I may need to just revisit popping in an appropriate filter.

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I also recommend looking up how to "upgrade" your filter away from using cartridges.  

Thanks for the video, I'll make time to study up on it this week and see what sorts of tweaks I can make on it.

Quote

Try moving the HoB filter to the side wall and then try moving your exiting pump to the back corner near your heater.  

Thanks for the suggestion.  I think the most realistic thing I can do at this point is probably to move the heater to maybe the center of the tank and moving the small secondary pump to the back, thus circulating the warm water through to the HOB and hopefully get a better distribution of heat.  As you have touched upon, I'm unfortunately limited by space due to the other hardware, chiefly the light.  Hanging the HOB on the side wall isn't currently an option.

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GH is too low and the tank is under filtered. I would triple tank turn over and if you are not going to quarantine your fish, I would at least feed Seachem Kanaplex and Seachem Focus per directions. A cheap GH booster like Seachem Equilibrium can be used, but there are better option to boost GH.

I still have some small WonderShells I will probably put in the tank to help the GH.  I had used them previously in my smaller 10g and they worked like a charm, but at the same time that was during my "chase the parameter" days and the fish seemed fine without them so I eased off.  I'll try pop one in and get it up.

@Torrey, thanks much for your insight!  First and foremost, my original training was in emergency medicine so I completely understand your thought process!  I spent 6  years in county ER here in Houston as an ER physician assistant.  I approached this thing in the exact same way... "What is acute vs. chronic?", "What is the differential?" 😄To respond to your questions/comments:

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Good to see you decided to stop chasing water parameters and work with what you got, however that doesn't mean reduction in testing and validating the test results. (If that is what happened, I don't want to assume, I am merely explaining my full thought process out loud).

No worries, it is better not to assume.  I usually do testing on this tank every week.  This is the big reason I got stumped with this thing since the parameters have been unchanged for so long.  Regarding the your above question about the "GH of 8".  It was actually the oxygenation level.  The test (Salifer O2 test, link above in previous post) I used literally just said "8".  There were no units of measure... just... 8.  The instructions likewise just said that for freshwater tanks, 8 and above is best.  The GH value was 30ppm.  I had forgotten to mention, I use ACO EasyGreen for my fertilizer and I dose the tank about 3 times every two weeks.  I put down ACO root tabs about once a month or so, maybe sooner if the plants show any signs of need.

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I recommend anyone who has equipment (like heaters, or powerheads, or pumps) that require electrical equipment to be in contact with water, to invest in a low cost voltage meter to check for shorts. 

Thanks for the info.  I'm going to keep this one in the back of my mind as it is pretty low on my differential at this point.  The fish don't seem to be avoidant of the area and the mystery snails tend to hang out on the darn thing.  Besides, any new equipment will quickly earn me "one of those looks" from my wife. 🙃

@Brandxn, nope!  Nothing new in the food/chemicals area.  Same stuff I've been using since I started the hobby about 2 years ago!

THANK YOU again everyone.  You guys are a HUGE asset to our community!

[BeeD]

I tried to read the entire thread but had to skim a bit so I can get back to work here, sorry if I'm duplicating advice. My opinion is that your tank absolutely reacted to bio-load, and that suggest to me that your system is not stable. With such neutral water, you may be getting PH swings, but more importantly I would say you're getting ammonia spikes. First thing I would do is improve filter media, keep the stocking low, let the beneficial bacteria settle in.

If you like the look of lava rock, they may help bb colonize your tank and provide a good refuge for it for years. They are inert, so you will not be doing anything to swing your PH. More importantly though, you probably need to improve your filtration with some sponge and other stuff for your filter. Wouldn't hurt to hide a sponge filter somewhere behind the plants, at least for a while. 

As for your PH, I guess in the long term I would slowly add in some crushed coral and aragonite, but that might be more of a preference. I know there are people working with neutral water. Biggest issue for you is probably the biological filtration. 

[Martin]

@BrettD, thank you for your insight.  So I guess this is where I might be missing something.  I see multiple folks mentioning potential filtration issues, but isn't this what regular testing is supposed to help you pick up on?  I'm not asking that from the position to challenge anyone has I know there must be truth if several of you guys are saying the same thing.  I'm more asking as a genuine question from the position of a person who is still pretty rookie with about 2 years under his belt.  I had made sure to do testing and PWC/maintenance on a regular basis and I had kind of thought that issues with filtration/ammonia/nitrites/nitrates would present themselves with regular testing.  The water parameters have literally been the same since I finished cycling the tank before initial stocking, and (as far as I know) the pH has been unchanged from week to week, hence my confusion.  Am I looking at something wrong or looking at something too simply?

@nabokovfan87, forgot to ask... I'm not sure I would move in this direction, but would running dual 10g HOBs be a valid consideration if i wanted to avoid the 20g HOBs?  Just curious.  Still going to look into modifying the filtration media like you said.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Martin

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/10/2022 at 12:27 PM, Martin said:

forgot to ask... I'm not sure I would move in this direction, but would running dual 10g HOBs be a valid consideration if i wanted to avoid the 20g HOBs?  Just curious.  Still going to look into modifying the filtration media like you said.

yeah, that works. but you specifically need to have something in there to support beneficial bacteria. Pump aside, you'd want to have enough media (ceramic or sponge) in there to make sure you don't suffer from ammonia spikes.

If you can. Focus on the filter itself, let's work through setup and get it going for you.  The goal being to either stuff it with sponge or sponge / fine pad / ceramic (in that order).

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

On 5/7/2022 at 5:44 AM, Martin said:

I change the filter regularly

Does this mean cleaning, changing the cartridges or something else? 

In general I favor using 30 ppi sponge in HOBs as this has the right porosity to 1) catch finer waste, 2) has been shown in some studies to be ideal for attracting BB and 3) easy to source and manage.

I think what we are doing is dividing things up a bit in terms of filtration, maturation and maintenance of the the tank to keep it healthy. 

1) filtration can do 3 things mechanic, biological and chemical. If you are using the disposable cartridges from the manufacturer you are probably doing mechanical and chemical filtration but not biological as each time you toss a cartridge you lose whatever BB were clinging to it. This is why many of us push people to go to sponges, sintered glass media or other that can hold them and when rinsed in tank water will retain the BB. 

2) maturing a tank - cycling a tank is just the start, from there you are trying to maintain a balance between removal of waste products, helping keep up your colony of BB, supporting the health of the fish and meeting your plant needs. Nitrogen export and or helping the tank through the process is interesting and different people handle it differently. Some us do water changes to do this. Some use aquatic plants to pull the nitrogenous waste while others will use terrestrial or semi-aquatic plants to pull the waste out ie. pothos lucky bamboo etc. Others will use chemical filtration to do this. Obviously beneficial bacteria are a big part. In a mature tank they can take a hit and rebound meeting the tanks needs. How fast this happens is dependent on the factors we just reviewed. This is why some are theorizing that you've been having ammonia or nitrogenous product spikes that could be affecting the tank and it's inhabitants. 

3) maintenance of a tank - over cleaning can be detrimental at times, a little mulm, a little algae, a little bit of waste in the substrate are beneficial. Deep cleaning the substrate with intense gravel vacuuming, replacing the cartridges and or doing too big of water changes too soon and often can all lead to unstable tanks that are not able to mature making the ecosystem fragile. This is not to say you should not gravel vac just get the detritus on the surface. The plants and BB will eat up the waste deeper in. Big water changes can lead to shifts in pH, gH and kH and also can be somewhat stressful to fish that are already on the verge. An authority I trust says expect a 50% loss on any group of neon tetras as they are just so inbred and prone to disease with awful immune systems. 

Bit of a tangent but it felt like you wanted to get into the deeper aspects of this so just trying to help. 

[Martin]

@Beardedbillygoat1975, thanks very much for the information.  I have learned a TON from this conversation alone.  The breakdown was great for me.  To address your questions/comments:

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Does this mean cleaning, changing the cartridges or something else? 

My usual routine consists of changing out the cartridge monthly per the directions on the package.  Apart from this, I do roughly 20% PWCs every two weeks along with surface gravel vacuuming.  This is also where I will periodically drop down more root tabs, prune dead plant leaves, etc.

I idea of ammonia spikes was also kind of strange to me, but again, a lot of folks have mentioned it.  Much like regular water testing I noted above, I had kind of expected issues of ammonia to have "delcared" itself a bit via visible symptomatology among the animal life.  Much like humans, I would have expected more lethargy and whatnot, but I never saw any change in behavior.

Anywho, it sounds like general consensus is that filtration needs to be addressed better, so I will tackle that first and report back later on.  Thank you to all!

[BeeD]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:27 PM, Martin said:

@BrettD, thank you for your insight.  So I guess this is where I might be missing something.  I see multiple folks mentioning potential filtration issues, but isn't this what regular testing is supposed to help you pick up on?  I'm not asking that from the position to challenge anyone has I know there must be truth if several of you guys are saying the same thing.  I'm more asking as a genuine question from the position of a person who is still pretty rookie with about 2 years under his belt.  I had made sure to do testing and PWC/maintenance on a regular basis and I had kind of thought that issues with filtration/ammonia/nitrites/nitrates would present themselves with regular testing.  The water parameters have literally been the same since I finished cycling the tank before initial stocking, and (as far as I know) the pH has been unchanged from week to week, hence my confusion.  Am I looking at something wrong or looking at something too simply?

 

It's hard to pick up on ammonia spikes. Fish dying off in droves after increased bio-load is unfortunately one of the best indicators. A couple other people mentioned that it isn't a good sign if you're consistently testing low levels of ammonia, because that could mean that your filter is never getting ahead. So after your fish eat, after fertilizers, and potentially after PH or temperature swings stress your fish, ammonia levels could increase and cause temporary spikes beyond tolerable ranges. Unless you happen to be testing your water exactly when that spike is happening, you'll miss it. And it would be hard to know exactly when after a feeding that will happen. 

It sucks, but it's still part of the hobby. They sell those hang on backs with carbon cartridges, but the carbon just slows or destroys beneficial bacteria colonies. Then suddenly the carbon is neutralized and you get an ammonia spike. The bacteria then grows back on the blue floss covering on the cartridge, but there's so little of it that it isn't really enough for the tank size your filter was built for. Etc. Then, of course, the internet knows a LOT about the hobby, and it's hard to process it all. 

In your position, and I have been before, I would go with this; keep fish stocking low, no ferts for a while, feed only during peak photosynthesis, add filter material.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@MartinI think your cleaning of the tank is very appropriate based on what you have indicated. How often do you drop in root tabs? Which root tabs do you use?

Other than stopping the cartridges and using some sponge or sintered glass media i am not sure that you need much more in terms of filtration. More is better in general but not always necessary. Depending on stocking and I don't feel you are overstocked most typically shoot for 3-5 x turnover of the aquarium through the filtration. 

I think that the symptomology for ammonia or nitrate poisoning can be very obvious if the levels are very high - fish at the surface, gasping, work of breathing increased. You have had chronically lower end of these but a fluctuation could put a fish that has had chronic levels of stress to tip over. In medicine this is the low EF patient who starts getting meals on wheels and people wonder why they are getting heart failure exacerbations - those meals aren't low salt and it just took a meal a day over a week or 2 for a couple weeks to lead to the HF. Other than flashing - where a fish will shimmy and sometimes put their body up against surfaces like plants - you may not see anything until it's either too late or they just die. Neons are not my favorite fish for hobbyists - green neons, cardinals and many others are better choices in terms of genetic diversity. 

Have fun and enjoy the hobby. I would not take a group of neons dying on you as proof of your fish keeping ability. Even experienced people see large #s of deaths. 

[BeeD]

Yea I'm even more convinced that it's ammonia. Every time you add a cartridge, the carbon could be starving half the beneficial bacteria and lowering your bio-filtration capacity. The more ammonia you produce, including in form of fertilizers (I think), the faster you neutralize the carbon. As soon as that carbon is neutralized, there is suddenly more ammonia than the surviving bacteria will eat.

I use any of the following... 100% pure nylon pot scrubbers, those rolls of blue filter floss pads, or any of the sponges Coop sells as hob cartridge replacements.

[Martin]

One last question @BrettD: 

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feed only during peak photosynthesis

Uh... when is this?  (Sorry.)

Thanks so very much for the vast amount of lessons learned in this conversation everyone.  Basically going to slow it down for the time being and work on getting the tank better settled then.  It's okay, more attention for my plants then!  The experience was very frustrating at the start because nothing was seemingly wrong, but it sounds like some issues can be insidious enough to go undetected by inexperienced eyes.  You feel bad when a little life form dies, because, in the end, it is still life.  I walk away a little relieved to have learned something from it.  The worst is going though this and learning nothing.

[BeeD]

I've always heard that it is around 4 hours from tank lights turning on, and that's when I feed a newer tank. Avoid feeding before the 2 hour mark and after the 6 hour mark for sure.