Stumped and frustrated...

[Torrey]

On 5/10/2022 at 2:36 PM, Martin said:

One last question @BrettD: 

Uh... when is this?  (Sorry.)

Thanks so very much for the vast amount of lessons learned in this conversation everyone.  Basically going to slow it down for the time being and work on getting the tank better settled then.  It's okay, more attention for my plants then!  The experience was very frustrating at the start because nothing was seemingly wrong, but it sounds like some issues can be insidious enough to go undetected by inexperienced eyes.  You feel bad when a little life form dies, because, in the end, it is still life.  I walk away a little relieved to have learned something from it.  The worst is going though this and learning nothing.

 

 

On 5/10/2022 at 4:35 PM, BrettD said:

I've always heard that it is around 4 hours from tank lights turning on, and that's when I feed a newer tank. Avoid feeding before the 2 hour mark and after the 6 hour mark for sure. 

Yay internet for making this a fabulous example of information overload/ crossing pieces of information!

Photosynthesis (when plants are utilizing sunlight to convert nitrates into sugars for growth) requires:

1. Light (the photo period)

2. Nutrients (macros & micros)

3. CO2

The amount of growth is determined by whatever resource is the limiting factor. 

"Peak photosynthesis" is like everything else in the hobby: it depends.

When all of the plants needs are met, and nutrients are balanced, we can identify peak photosynthesis by the plant pearling (releasing tiny bubbles of oxygen as a byproduct of photosynthesis. At night, plants consume oxygen and release CO2)

My tiny Back2theRoots tank starts pearling 45 minutes after the lights turn on. 

My spouse's 4' tank only shows pearling on the days I dose with ferts.

Some of my other tanks with dimmer lights and low light plants never pearl.

The 4 hour mark that people reference comes from some tests that Dr Diana Walstad references in her book on planted tank ecology. 

Her tests indicated that low tech tanks will passively reach maximum CO2 saturation levels 4 hours after the lights go off (indicating 4 hours is the perfect length of the dark siesta), and plants use up the available CO2 in a passive system in 4 hours (so 4 hours after the lights turn on, the plants have maximized their ability to outcompete algae, and lights should be turned off to allow CO2 levels to rise again.

TL/DR: add plant ferts when plant lights first come on, so plants can use the ferts.

Feed early enough that the plants are able to consume fish waste before the CO2 in a passive system (not actively adding CO2) is depleted and limits photosynthesis ability. 

@Martin replacing the carbon carbons with sponge will save you money long term, and improve water quality exponentially. 

To see the spikes people are referring to, you can test about every 15 to 30 minutes for a day, and you will see the ammonia and then nitrite levels go up after a feeding. 

You can see the same for nitrates after you add ferts.

Continuing to test every 30 minutes will show you how long it takes the plants and bacteria to remove the ammonia,  nitrites and nitrates.

Weekly testing won't catch those spikes 

Some people invest in Apex monitoring systems to have access to that data, and fine tune their feeding, maintenance, and even CO2 injection  

I am low tech, and used to test every hour for the first 24 hours after adding new fish (to alleviate my OCD and fear for the fish).

Now, I have tested enough that I recognize the signs of my tank not being balanced. 

Everyone has given you great information, and I don't like to overwhelm.

I would start with replacing the HOB premade carbon filters with a sponge/ sponges in the HOB. Easy way is to put sponge between the current carbon filter and the back, and give the sponge 2 weeks to start growing bacteria. Then replace the carbon with more sponge.

You can see my HOB that filters water into my breeder box. I just finished up a QT and needed to use the carbon filter for 48 hours. I seeded the sponge in a different tank, and I have a rectangle of sponge the water comes through at the bottom, then it goes through media (3 different pores per inch of sponges), and then it goes through the large white rectangle of sponge [with smaller ppi] that came with the HOB originally. 

The sponge is the foundation for the beneficial bacteria to grow on. The disposable carbon filters are throwing away the beneficial bacteria every time they are replaced. Therefore, the system is never "balanced".

Does that help explain in a way that makes sense?

 

[Ben Ellison]

So I have been reading over this and considering the issue at hand and it seems to me that the best remedy for the tank would be a good old fashioned air driven sponge filter. It will knock on the head any fears of low oxygen at the same time increases biological filtration. Also at the same time it contributes very little to surface agitation if dial in correctly with a valve. I would place it on the opposite end of your tank from the job to get a nice circle flow going to help get a nice even temperature through our the tank. I also run undersized hob that has been hotroded in my tanks. I feel like turn over rate is normally over emphasized. Plenty of tanks do just fine on a air driven sponge and I have successfully ran tanks with no filter at all.

[BeeD]

On 5/11/2022 at 1:42 AM, Torrey said:

 

 

Yay internet for making this a fabulous example of information overload/ crossing pieces of information!

 

Does that help explain in a way that makes sense?

 

Oh hi reddit.com. 

[Martin]

Thanks so much for the added information all.  I've literally watched every video you guys posted and read everything nice and slow, so please know the significant time you guys took to help with the situation was very thoroughly digested and taken in.  It is incredible the amount of questions you unfortunately don't know to ask until the situation has already become a problem.  Though, fund of knowledge grows, and I appreciate you all for it.

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/11/2022 at 7:36 AM, Martin said:

It is incredible the amount of questions you unfortunately don't know to ask until the situation has already become a problem.

Plato's Cave.... 100%

I hope things improve for you! Looking forward to seeing your progress as your journey moves forward.

[Ben Ellison]

Definitely keep us updated on what you decide to do and how it turns out.

[Martin]

Welp, I've swapped out the old 10g HOB for an Aquaclear for 20g tanks, popped in 2x sponges and a bag of ceramic rings... intake sponge filter should arrive later today.  While it gets settled, I've pulled out the old cartridges from the 10g HOB and left them sitting in the tank.

I've also moved the heater to the center of the tank with the secondary flow pump positioned in the back at the opposite end from the HOB to circulate the warm water more evenly.

Any other suggestions?  A HUGE thank you to all!

Edited May 14, 2022 by Martin

[Torrey]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:32 AM, Martin said:

Welp, I've swapped out the old 10g HOB for an Aquaclear for 20g tanks, popped in 2x sponges and a bag of ceramic rings... intake sponge filter should arrive later today.  While it gets settled, I've pulled out the old cartridges from the 10g HOB and left them sitting in the tank.

I've also moved the heater to the center of the tank with the secondary flow pump positioned in the back at the opposite end from the HOB to circulate the warm water more evenly.

Any other suggestions?  A HUGE thank you to all!

You already changed a lot, so I recommend testing parameters and documenting any changes in a journal or spreadsheet for the next 3 to 6 weeks. If you see nitrites or ammonia, do a water change to bring them down, to protect your fish. Prime binds up ammonia while breaking the chloramine bond for 24 to 48 hours (I think amount of ammonia determines how long the covalent bond binds the ammonia). You can use Prime to give the fish a buffer, just know that ammonia tests aren't always completely accurate for about 24 hours after Prime has been added to a tank (sensitive tests will detect the bound ammonia, and other tests sometimes won't pick up on ammonia at all for 24 hours). 

Good fishkeeping is 90% about observation, and 10% patience... except when something goes wrong and then it's 90% patience while waiting for the tank to respond to whatever change we made, and 10% observation, lol