Plants keep dying

[WhiteCloudSand]

I just started getting into planted tanks. I have a couple of crypts plants along with an Anubis nana and Java fern in a 20gal long with an led full spectrum light. I had a couple of “easy” stem plants such as Bacopa caroliniana and Pogostemon stlatus octopus that ended up dying fairly quickly. My substrate is eco-complete, about 1.5”-2” deep. I have been dosing easy green and flourish potassium as instructed on the bottles as well as some epsom salt, but whatever I do, the only thing I can seem to grow plenty of, is hair algae (or what I think is hair algae). I am aware that my water is very deficient in potassium and magnesium, but is there anything else I am missing? How much epsom salt can I safely use for my tank, or is there a better way to add magnesium without adding salt to the tank as well?

Recently I bought aquarium co-op multi-test strips so I could easily test my water’s GH, KH, and PH levels. I am on well water so I expected to have higher levels in these categories. My GH was off the charts which maxed at 300ppm. My KH was around the 180-300ppm. My PH was close to 8. Nitrates come out of the tap at 40ppm. Nitrite and ammonia are at 0ppm
 

Any help is appreciated!

[Ambush0908]

Hello,
Sorry to hear about your issue.  I am always hesitant about giving advice because any success I have had with my planted tanks is most likely attributed to luck and a lot of trial and error.  Where do you get your plants?  I have found if they were not grown fully submersed that they will sometimes melt and seem like they are dying.   When I first started I would give up on them but after some research I left some in and they slowly started growing.   This didn’t happen every time but enough times that I became much more patient.   I have also read that a high PH could cause issues with some plants.   

[Guppysnail]

Welcome to the forum.  My tap reads like yours. Only difference is 7.6 ph for me. Bacopa and pogo hate my water even though I grow many plants that are considered a bit harder to grow. I don’t use fertilizer because my high nitrate is agricultural runoff so my tap is liquid fertilizer.  I can tell you blue light grows hair algae for me in days. No blue light no hair algae in my tanks. Hope that helps.

[WhiteCloudSand]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:46 PM, Ambush0908 said:

Hello,
Sorry to hear about your issue.  I am always hesitant about giving advice because any success I have had with my planted tanks is most likely attributed to luck and a lot of trial and error.  Where do you get your plants?  I have found if they were not grown fully submersed that they will sometimes melt and seem like they are dying.   When I first started I would give up on them but after some research I left some in and they slowly started growing.   This didn’t happen every time but enough times that I became much more patient.   I have also read that a high PH could cause issues with some plants.   

I got my plants from aquarium co-op. The crypts have already completely melted and came back, but I think the stem plants had a hard time transitioning.

[WhiteCloudSand]

On 4/19/2022 at 4:47 PM, Guppysnail said:

Welcome to the forum.  My tap reads like yours. Only difference is 7.6 ph for me. Bacopa and pogo hate my water even though I grow many plants that are considered a bit harder to grow. I don’t use fertilizer because my high nitrate is agricultural runoff so my tap is liquid fertilizer.  I can tell you blue light grows hair algae for me in days. No blue light no hair algae in my tanks. Hope that helps.

Do you have any taller plant suggestions for the background of my tank? I mostly douse easy green for the additional nutrients like magnesium and potassium. I have noticed that blue light is like giving hair algae steroids. Thankfully my light has a mode to remove most or all of the blue like.

Thanks for the input!

[Torrey]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:28 PM, WhiteCloudSand said:

I just started getting into planted tanks. I have a couple of crypts plants along with an Anubis nana and Java fern in a 20gal long with an led full spectrum light. I had a couple of “easy” stem plants such as Bacopa caroliniana and Pogostemon stlatus octopus that ended up dying fairly quickly. My substrate is eco-complete, about 1.5”-2” deep. I have been dosing easy green and flourish potassium as instructed on the bottles as well as some epsom salt, but whatever I do, the only thing I can seem to grow plenty of, is hair algae (or what I think is hair algae). I am aware that my water is very deficient in potassium and magnesium, but is there anything else I am missing? How much epsom salt can I safely use for my tank, or is there a better way to add magnesium without adding salt to the tank as well?

Recently I bought aquarium co-op multi-test strips so I could easily test my water’s GH, KH, and PH levels. I am on well water so I expected to have higher levels in these categories. My GH was off the charts which maxed at 300ppm. My KH was around the 180-300ppm. My PH was close to 8. Nitrates come out of the tap at 40ppm. Nitrite and ammonia are at 0ppm
 

Any help is appreciated!

There are a few things.

All tanks go through fairly predictable patterns of aging and development, and algae is part of the "awkward teenage stage". Typically brwon diatom, followed by green dust or green spot, followed by hair algae, and then depending on what's balanced and what's not, staghorn or blackbeard algae.

Ideally, keep a photo journal in with your water change data and test data. That way, you can change one thing, then monitor new growth for 2 weeks to see if that 1. corrected the problem, 2. made no difference, or 3. made the problem worse. Then it's easier to identify the next thing that needs to change.

I personally like Dr Diana Walstad's approach: plant a whole lot of different plants, and see what likes your water best. Yes, it means I had a LOT of plants die last year, it also means I learned a lot and I am now able to keep red plants alive for the first time in my life.

I am very low tech, don't use CO2, and didn't buy my first "aquarium light" until last year... even though I've had tanks for 5 decades and plants of some kind in tanks for decades. I generally just use shoplights.

My aquarium plant keeping has improved over the past 2 decades because I keep a lot of notes, and I "listen" to my plants. Different deficiencies cause different growth patterns. Old leaves will only show what was wrong in the past as the old leaves can't heal themselves, so look at the newest growth to determine if the water is still imbalanced or not.

Algae is generally a light spectrum imbalance, as Guppysnail pointed out regarding blue lights, or a nutrient imbalnce... or combo of both. But if you try to fix both at the same time, you have no way of knowing if it actually was both. So only change one thing at a time, observe for 2-4 weeks, and then determine best next action.

My plant keeping game stepped up over the past year, by reading everyting Seattle Aquarist and Mmiller share regarding plant nutrition. There are lots of great people sharing information inhere on how to improve plant success, but Seattle Aquarist and Mmiller explain it in a way that makes sense to my brain.

Seattle Aquarist explained Mulder's chart so that I can now see nutrients as medications that are used to treat the disease of a plant that is not optimally healthy. So now, in addition to listening to my plants, I can actually understand what a curled leaf means, or new growth that is pale/white, or why I am supplementing iron to address pale leaves with bright green veins, but not seeing improvement (my high pH water makes the iron unavailable except in Fe-EDDHA form).

It's like Cory said in one of his videos: We aren't keeping fish (or plants), we are keeping water (chemistry) and when we get the chemistry right, the fish and plants will thrive.

So you can check out my "Name That Plant" journal, as well as the Co-op Blogs on plant keeping which are very helpful and informative.

I would add follow people like Seattle Aquarist and Mmiller, to read various explanations on plant nutrition, until an explanation they give generates an "aha" moment for you. If they don't type the way your brain processes information, check out gjcarew, or read through some of the topics posted under "Plants" until you find someone who explains things in a way that resonates for you.

Here's two of the resources I keep in my Water Data sheets (yes, I am *that* nerm, who uses a spreadsheet for water cahnges and to monitor trends in wateer quality).

From Seattle Aquarist:

https://www.nutriag.com/mulderschart/

From I no longer remember where:

 

Unless someone is running CO2, I have noticed that Dr Diana Walstad seems to be correct that a siesta photoperiod schedule does appear to reduce algae growth. The explanation that in passive gaseous exchange systems, CO2 buildup hits maximum saturation 4 hours after the lights go out, and the plants use the same amount in the first 4 hours the lights are on, resonates. Once I put my lights on timers so they weren't on longer than 4 hours, and so the tanks had at least one siesta of 4 hours, I noticed a significant reduction in algae in my tanks.

Coincidentally, this change in lighting also correlated to when I stopped killing red plants.

So whether it's correlational or causational, I don't particualrly care at the moment. It works in my tanks, and my Scapes from Scraps entry demonstrates how well it works.

 

[WhiteCloudSand]

On 4/19/2022 at 11:02 PM, Torrey said:

There are a few things.

All tanks go through fairly predictable patterns of aging and development, and algae is part of the "awkward teenage stage". Typically brwon diatom, followed by green dust or green spot, followed by hair algae, and then depending on what's balanced and what's not, staghorn or blackbeard algae.

Ideally, keep a photo journal in with your water change data and test data. That way, you can change one thing, then monitor new growth for 2 weeks to see if that 1. corrected the problem, 2. made no difference, or 3. made the problem worse. Then it's easier to identify the next thing that needs to change.

I personally like Dr Diana Walstad's approach: plant a whole lot of different plants, and see what likes your water best. Yes, it means I had a LOT of plants die last year, it also means I learned a lot and I am now able to keep red plants alive for the first time in my life.

I am very low tech, don't use CO2, and didn't buy my first "aquarium light" until last year... even though I've had tanks for 5 decades and plants of some kind in tanks for decades. I generally just use shoplights.

My aquarium plant keeping has improved over the past 2 decades because I keep a lot of notes, and I "listen" to my plants. Different deficiencies cause different growth patterns. Old leaves will only show what was wrong in the past as the old leaves can't heal themselves, so look at the newest growth to determine if the water is still imbalanced or not.

Algae is generally a light spectrum imbalance, as Guppysnail pointed out regarding blue lights, or a nutrient imbalnce... or combo of both. But if you try to fix both at the same time, you have no way of knowing if it actually was both. So only change one thing at a time, observe for 2-4 weeks, and then determine best next action.

My plant keeping game stepped up over the past year, by reading everyting Seattle Aquarist and Mmiller share regarding plant nutrition. There are lots of great people sharing information inhere on how to improve plant success, but Seattle Aquarist and Mmiller explain it in a way that makes sense to my brain.

Seattle Aquarist explained Mulder's chart so that I can now see nutrients as medications that are used to treat the disease of a plant that is not optimally healthy. So now, in addition to listening to my plants, I can actually understand what a curled leaf means, or new growth that is pale/white, or why I am supplementing iron to address pale leaves with bright green veins, but not seeing improvement (my high pH water makes the iron unavailable except in Fe-EDDHA form).

It's like Cory said in one of his videos: We aren't keeping fish (or plants), we are keeping water (chemistry) and when we get the chemistry right, the fish and plants will thrive.

So you can check out my "Name That Plant" journal, as well as the Co-op Blogs on plant keeping which are very helpful and informative.

I would add follow people like Seattle Aquarist and Mmiller, to read various explanations on plant nutrition, until an explanation they give generates an "aha" moment for you. If they don't type the way your brain processes information, check out gjcarew, or read through some of the topics posted under "Plants" until you find someone who explains things in a way that resonates for you.

Here's two of the resources I keep in my Water Data sheets (yes, I am *that* nerm, who uses a spreadsheet for water cahnges and to monitor trends in wateer quality).

From Seattle Aquarist:

https://www.nutriag.com/mulderschart/

From I no longer remember where:

 

Unless someone is running CO2, I have noticed that Dr Diana Walstad seems to be correct that a siesta photoperiod schedule does appear to reduce algae growth. The explanation that in passive gaseous exchange systems, CO2 buildup hits maximum saturation 4 hours after the lights go out, and the plants use the same amount in the first 4 hours the lights are on, resonates. Once I put my lights on timers so they weren't on longer than 4 hours, and so the tanks had at least one siesta of 4 hours, I noticed a significant reduction in algae in my tanks.

Coincidentally, this change in lighting also correlated to when I stopped killing red plants.

So whether it's correlational or causational, I don't particualrly care at the moment. It works in my tanks, and my Scapes from Scraps entry demonstrates how well it works.

 

Thank you for the help! I will definitely be checking out your recommendations. 

[PineSong]

@Torreyand @Guppysnail, thanks for those reminders and new to me info, too. I was reading this thread because I just had a come to Jesus meeting with my 20g tall which has become clogged with hair algae and my hygrophila--they only stem plant I've ever been successful with--has recently started to fade and has tons of pinholes, while my corkscrew val has taken over lots of territory.

Based on your posts, I am going to cover my blue light dots, block the window light for now, put the light on a timer with the same siesta pattern that my kitchen tank is on, and see what happens. I had been skipping doses of Easy Green  in an effort to starve out the duckweed but I guess the duckweed sucks up the potassium before the hygro can access it--or maybe it's the corkscrew val that is eating it all? I'll resume the Easy Green and hope it's not too late for my hygro.

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by PineSong

[Minanora]

On 4/25/2022 at 8:46 PM, PineSong said:

@Torreyand @Guppysnail, thanks for those reminders and new to me info, too. I was reading this thread because I just had a come to Jesus meeting with my 20g tall which has become clogged with hair algae and my hygrophila--they only stem plant I've ever been successful with--has recently started to fade and has tons of pinholes, while my corkscrew val has taken over lots of territory.

Based on your posts, I am going to cover my blue light dots, block the window light for now, put the light on a timer with the same siesta pattern that my kitchen tank is on, and see what happens. I had been skipping doses of Easy Green  in an effort to starve out the duckweed but I guess the duckweed sucks up the potassium before the hygro can access it--or maybe it's the corkscrew val that is eating it all? I'll resume the Easy Green and hope it's not too late for my hygro.

 

I was just thinking the same thing about the info provided. Thank you @Torreyand @Guppysnail.

[Minanora]

On 4/19/2022 at 10:02 PM, Torrey said:

Typically brwon diatom, followed by green dust or green spot, followed by hair algae, and then depending on what's balanced and what's not, staghorn or blackbeard algae

This is an 'aha' moment for me... I am just realizing that this is what's happening in my 75, in that order... I'm at the tail end of hair algae, dealing with staghorn now and tiny threats of Blackbeard.

Now I just need to figure out what to do about it. Off to read I go!

[Torrey]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:46 PM, PineSong said:

@Torreyand @Guppysnail, thanks for those reminders and new to me info, too. I was reading this thread because I just had a come to Jesus meeting with my 20g tall which has become clogged with hair algae and my hygrophila--they only stem plant I've ever been successful with--has recently started to fade and has tons of pinholes, while my corkscrew val has taken over lots of territory.

Based on your posts, I am going to cover my blue light dots, block the window light for now, put the light on a timer with the same siesta pattern that my kitchen tank is on, and see what happens. I had been skipping doses of Easy Green  in an effort to starve out the duckweed but I guess the duckweed sucks up the potassium before the hygro can access it--or maybe it's the corkscrew val that is eating it all? I'll resume the Easy Green and hope it's not too late for my hygro.

 

I learned a cool trick from @Guppysnail for using propagation methods to salvage stem plants.

Did you see my Scapes from Scraps video? That entire batch of Rosaeafolia would have been tossed, it was in such bad shape.

Instead, I rinsed it, separated out any remotely healthy/salvageable looking pieces, cut the stems to a pair of leaves each, and floated in a tiny sterilite bin directly under a bright shop light (on the timer, still). I changed water every day, and dosed ferts for a gallon instead of for a quart, until I saw fresh roots. Then I cut back water changes and fresh ferts to every other day, and then every third day. New leaf growth meant they were ready for the Scapes from Scraps tank.

If you have any signs of life, I would try taking some trimmings and see if you can jump start some new growth.

If you are home, I would allow the tank some natural light when the lights are on, as you will see appreciation from your plants and your fish will develop stronger coloration.

That's just me, though. Mileage may vary, lol

 

[Torrey]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:17 PM, Minanora said:

This is an 'aha' moment for me... I am just realizing that this is what's happening in my 75, in that order... I'm at the tail end of hair algae, dealing with staghorn now and tiny threats of Blackbeard.

Now I just need to figure out what to do about it. Off to read I go!

A few *proven* approaches: 

If it's mild, and you have inhabitants that will eat it, just monitor.

If you can't stand it, remove manually and see if anything needs to be dialed in by only changing one thing every couple of weeks/monitoring

If there's a lot of it, remove as much as possible manually, turn off all filtration so the water gets "still", and carefully "paint" what you coudln't remove with H2O2. If you haven't seen my explanation before, fill a 5 cc infant medicine syringe with H2O2. *Slowly* depress the plunger with the tip on the offending algae. apply only a mL per clump of algae, using the syringe as a "paintbrush" to saturate the plant and nothing else with H2O2. Use your other hand to ensure no fish come and try to eat out of the syringe.

After 15 to 20 minutes, turn back on the filtration. If you don't see a change in color/texture in the algae 48 hours later, you can repeat the process. The H2O2 interacts with the iron in the cell walls of the algae, rendering them unstable... Obviously, you don't want to do this on the same day you dose the tanks with any iron containing ferts.😅

My endlers will generally eat the blackbeard algae after it's been dosed twice like this.

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/25/2022 at 9:41 PM, Torrey said:

A few *proven* approaches: 

If it's mild, and you have inhabitants that will eat it, just monitor.

If you can't stand it, remove manually and see if anything needs to be dialed in by only changing one thing every couple of weeks/monitoring

Quote

There are a few things.

All tanks go through fairly predictable patterns of aging and development, and algae is part of the "awkward teenage stage". Typically brwon diatom, followed by green dust or green spot, followed by hair algae, and then depending on what's balanced and what's not, staghorn or blackbeard algae.

 

OK so......... I definitely have a few "attempts" at trying to fix that particular mess in my constant BBA farms.  A special shoutout to whatever the heck is in my water that keeps causing this insanity.  Besides my issues with lights and what not, I swear there's got to be something coming in during water changes. (yes the water does normally have nitrates, but recently KH has fallen off)

This is when I got the lighting messed up:

 

After adjusting lighting intensity (90% down to 75%) and adding some more amanos/otos.  This was the same tank 2 weeks later:

 

If you can, I highly recommend housing those two species in any planted tank. Following that, CO2, adjusting fert/lighting schedules, there is definitely a lot of tweaks that can help make things perfect for you.  The info Torrey posted is invaluable and extremely useful. So hopefully everyone here is able to put you at ease how normal this is and how..... we all wish our tanks were flawless, but we all have some algae going on.

 

Quote

I am aware that my water is very deficient in potassium and magnesium, but is there anything else I am missing? How much epsom salt can I safely use for my tank, or is there a better way to add magnesium without adding salt to the tank as well?

Seachem has the liquid potassium. They should also have magnesium.  You can also look for EI dosing powders to use as well.

Edited April 26, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Guppysnail]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:02 AM, Torrey said:

plant a whole lot of different plants, and see what likes your water best. Yes, it means I had a LOT of plants die last year, it also means I learned a lot and I am now able to keep red plants alive for the first time in my life.

This is the fun part.  Although I now seem like I have great plant success, I have killed twice the number of plants I’ve kept alive.  At least I get to see what each plant looks like in my tank for a bit. Then off to try new different plants.  Don’t take it personal if a particular plant does not like your water or tank set up.  I went through a phase where I would stress so much about one sickly new plant I couldn’t get to do well I would miss enjoying the ones that were.  I just moved ALL my tanks in November to create a dedicated fish room.  Upsetting all of them that much they are all going through a second childhood and awkward teenage stage. That means new plant experiment time.  😁

[Minanora]

As for recommendations for tall background plants. It depends on the textures and colors you're looking for and how often you're wanting to trim.

Easy ones are Java Ferns, val, and Amazon sword.

You could also do ludwigia, or pennywort.

There are a lot of options with a 20 long.

You may want to make your substrate deeper though. I am fan of having 3 inches of substrate or more.

[Brandon p]

I use gaint Val. But I have high tanks. I like the way it flows and and lays on top.

Edited April 29, 2022 by Brandon p

[Guppysnail]

I just reset this 20 long so not grown in but lucky bamboo looks interesting

anacharis elodea is fun and you just snip the top when it gets to tall

Edited April 26, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Torrey]

On 4/26/2022 at 12:35 PM, Guppysnail said:

I just reset this 20 long so not grown in but lucky bamboo looks interesting

anacharis elodea is fun and you just snip the top when it gets to tall

@Guppysnailis that an aquarium plant hanging like a long rope on the right side???

😲

[Guppysnail]

On 4/27/2022 at 10:34 PM, Torrey said:

@Guppysnailis that an aquarium plant hanging like a long rope on the right side???

😲

Yup. I was holding it up. It’s elodea. I was redoing the tank and my arm was not long enough to get a pic of the whole thing 🤣🤣

[Dawn T]

On 4/19/2022 at 3:47 PM, Guppysnail said:

Welcome to the forum.  My tap reads like yours. Only difference is 7.6 ph for me. Bacopa and pogo hate my water even though I grow many plants that are considered a bit harder to grow. I don’t use fertilizer because my high nitrate is agricultural runoff so my tap is liquid fertilizer.  I can tell you blue light grows hair algae for me in days. No blue light no hair algae in my tanks. Hope that helps.

Too funny. My tap water is right at 7.6 pH as well (high GH and KH, too), and Bacopa and Pogo 'octopus' grow great for me! In fact, Pogo is a WEED in my tanks. I gotta trim that stuff at least every 2-3 weeks or it tries to take over and choke everything else out! LOL

I totally agree about blue light. Algae loves it. I watched a video not too long ago about the hazards of using blue lights at night. Not just algae issues either. Actual long-term problems with fish. If anyone would like to see that, I can find it and post the link.

That said, Java fern and I have never gotten along. No idea why. I've tried it in different tanks with different lighting, different degrees of shade (and none), different fert schedules, you name it. Nothing works. It either just sits there, looking horribly pathetic for a while before it admits defeat and dies, or it dies outright and never comes back. I know it can give the appearance of being dead and then come back (much like Crypts that have melted), but months later, still nothing. I've got one in my 29g Endler tank that has done that. I'm MONTHS out now from it dying back and, yep, still looks dead. LOL

Crypts and Anubias grow great for me, even when I don't fertilize (I'm bad to forget ferts). I honestly have no idea why they grow well for me. I can tell you they took a while to establish and actually thrive. Until then, the Crypts melted if I looked at them funny, and the Anubias had algae issues at first. Floating plants resolved the latter, since it provided some shade for the Anubias. Once both species got established, they took off, though. I have to thin my Crypts every 3 or 4 months in my 29g Endler tank.

I've never used Epsom salts in an aquarium, so I can't advise on that.

Oh, @Guppysnail, me and Elodea have never gotten along either. Go figure. It's supposed to be a bulletproof beginner plant, but I never could keep it alive. I love the way it looks, though, which is why I decided to try Bacopa caroliniana. Not the same, but they look close enough to suit me. Thankfully, Bacopa does well for me.

[Torrey]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:04 PM, WhiteCloudSand said:

I think the stem plants had a hard time transitioning.

I would recommend trying Guppysnail's trick:

 

These are anubias and swords, and a java windelov instead of stems, but the same concept:

These are airline suction cups, and I have run a ziptie around the plants and hooked it in the airline holder. I start the suction cups so a few leaves are partially exposed to help speed up the transition process. As soon as I get new submerged growth, I trim back the emergent growth and lower the suction cups. Once I have a healthy root system, stem plants and *non* rhizome plants are planted in the substrate and rhizome plants have their roots (not the rhizome) tucked into some wood or under a rock, leaving the rhizome fully exposed.

(Thank you @Guppysnail for this brilliant idea, and it trains the roots to grow in the proper direction, unlike my old method of floating!)