Angelfish Spawn

[Brian Scott]

A nice-sized spawn from a pair of wild types.  Tank is a 65-gallon.

[Lemon]

nice

[Streetwise]

That is an amazing photograph! Congratulations on the spawn.

[Bill]

Agree, great photo! Is the pair alone in the tank? 

[Amy Swanstrom]

That photo is frame worthy, sooo beautiful! Congratulations.  

[Brian Scott]

On 9/29/2020 at 5:43 PM, Bill said:

Agree, great photo! Is the pair alone in the tank? 

Hi Bill,

Yes the pair has the entire 65-gallon tank to themselves.  I find that in my cases breeding angels that the more room you give them the more likely they are to raise their fry up without eating them.  I also feel that parent-raised fish are better breeders themselves down the road.

Cheers,

--Brian

[Bill]

On 9/30/2020 at 11:46 PM, Brian Scott said:

I also feel that parent-raised fish are better breeders themselves down the road.

I just mentioned in another thread that mine are taking good care of the fry. Never intended to breed them, and these were fish I just picked up at petsmart that I liked the looks of. I recently watched a 7-part YouTube video interview of Dave Warren by KGTropicals, and he said the same about the parents raising them. He also said 90 to 95 percent of the time the fish you get from the big "P stores" won't succeed at raising their own, so I guess I got lucky.

These were in a community tank and only last week was I able to get the other fish out right when they spawned. I'd like to move them to a better setup for next time. Any suggestions you can give would be appreciated, e.g. bare bottom? plants? slate? etc.

Thanks!
 

[FrostiesFishes]

@Brian Scott at what size did you find the angelfish stoped eating spawns , I’ve got a pair in a 29 and they eat there spawns often. 

[Brian Scott]

On 10/3/2020 at 5:46 PM, Bill said:

I just mentioned in another thread that mine are taking good care of the fry. Never intended to breed them, and these were fish I just picked up at petsmart that I liked the looks of. I recently watched a 7-part YouTube video interview of Dave Warren by KGTropicals, and he said the same about the parents raising them. He also said 90 to 95 percent of the time the fish you get from the big "P stores" won't succeed at raising their own, so I guess I got lucky.

These were in a community tank and only last week was I able to get the other fish out right when they spawned. I'd like to move them to a better setup for next time. Any suggestions you can give would be appreciated, e.g. bare bottom? plants? slate? etc.

Thanks!
 

Hi Bill,

It's funny how so many really nice angels come from the big box stores.  I almost bought an entire tankful of basic everyday silvers because they were absolutely perfect.  Perfect barring and outstanding pin-straight fins.  To this day I really wish I did get them.

 

At any rate, as for suggestions, I'd say bare bottom is really best unless you use sand.  The newly swimming fry will often bury themselves headfirst in the substrate, and if the gravel is too coarse then they may wedge themselves in it and not be able to get out.   There are other benefits to bare bottom tanks when breeding angels, such as nitrate management and mulm management, etc...

As for plants.....sure!  Anything to help keep that water clean is a bonus.  I, personally, don't usually use them, but that's mostly because I suck at keeping plants alive!  LOL  🙂

Slate is your friend, for sure.  Strips cut into 3 inch by 12 or 16 inch pieces set nearly vertically against the side or back walls will likely be used as a spawning platform.  That's what I use....or, rather, that's what my angels use!

Hope that helps a bit. 

Cheers, my friend!

--Brian

[Brian Scott]

5 hours ago, FrostiesFishes said:

@Brian Scott at what size did you find the angelfish stoped eating spawns , I’ve got a pair in a 29 and they eat there spawns often. 

Hello there!

I find that it's less about size as it is about maturity and experience.

Let me answer you with a question, if you don't mind.  How many spawns has your pair eaten on you?

Cheers,

--Brian

[Bill]

1 hour ago, Brian Scott said:

As for plants.....sure!  Anything to help keep that water clean is a bonus.  I, personally, don't usually use them, but that's mostly because I suck at keeping plants alive!  LOL  🙂

Slate is your friend, for sure.  Strips cut into 3 inch by 12 or 16 inch pieces set nearly vertically against the side or back walls will likely be used as a spawning platform.  That's what I use....or, rather, that's what my angels use!

Hope that helps a bit. 

LOL, me too with plants... I often feel like fish/tanks/filters are relatively easy, plants are hard!  And thank you, that was definitely helpful.

I'm also interested in your answer to @FrostiesFishes because I recall Dean on a Co-op video saying it takes some tries for them to learn what to do, and Dave Warren (in the KGTropicals interview mentioned above) said something about giving them one or two tries before he takes the eggs from them. Something to the effect of if they fail the first few they're likely to continue to fail. So I'm really curious about that as well. 

[Bill]

Hi@Brian Scott, If you're letting the parents raise them, how frequently do you do water changes (and how much) both while they're still eggs/wigglers and then free swimming? And how clean do you keep the bottom?

I mentioned in another thread that I picked up two new koi angels, tried to pick a male and female. I now have eggs on PVC in my quarantine tank, just starting to wiggle. I'm not in a position to move them, and the quarantine tank is terrible with siphoning because it's so low. Usually I don't worry about it, and I just put my pond pump in the corner of the tank, pump out, then turn around and refill. I only worry about cleaning the bottom when I move the fish out.  I may need a power vac? 

Thanks!
Bill

[Randy]

On 10/4/2020 at 5:41 PM, Brian Scott said:

Slate is your friend, for sure.  Strips cut into 3 inch by 12 or 16 inch pieces set nearly vertically against the side or back walls will likely be used as a spawning platform.  That's what I use....or, rather, that's what my angels use!

 

I currently buy my slate cut from an online seller.

I have checked out my local lowes and home depot for the larger pieces of slate that are then cut down for our aquarist purposes but with no luck.

 

Any good suggestions on where I should look?  Maybe local landscape material yards?

[Streetwise]

I wonder if you could find any used stuff at a local Habitat ReStore that deals in building materials.

[Brian Scott]

On 10/8/2020 at 11:08 AM, Bill said:

Hi@Brian Scott, If you're letting the parents raise them, how frequently do you do water changes (and how much) both while they're still eggs/wigglers and then free swimming? And how clean do you keep the bottom?

I mentioned in another thread that I picked up two new koi angels, tried to pick a male and female. I now have eggs on PVC in my quarantine tank, just starting to wiggle. I'm not in a position to move them, and the quarantine tank is terrible with siphoning because it's so low. Usually I don't worry about it, and I just put my pond pump in the corner of the tank, pump out, then turn around and refill. I only worry about cleaning the bottom when I move the fish out.  I may need a power vac? 

Thanks!
Bill

Hi Bill,

In most cases I don't do water changes while the fry are with the parents until they are either in or approaching what I call the "arrow stage."  That's where they're starting to look like baby angelfish rather than just typical cichlid fry.  Some folks also call them "darts" at this stage.  I go back and forth with the terminology, and use it interchangeably.  In such large tanks, I have very little issues with fouled water, and this is especially true when I'm feeding live BBS.  I do have some issues when I'm feeding prepared foods, like Repashy for example. 

When they're in the arrow or dart stage they are swimming all over the place, and are also large enough (in most cases) to where I can avoid sucking them up with my siphon.  I use a piece of hard 3/8-inch thin wall clear tubing attached to a length of vinyl tubing and siphon the bottom mulm and uneaten food stuffs into a 5-gallon bucket.  Old School!!!! 

Of course, be mindful that not all the fry will grow and develop at the same time so while some are in the dart stage others may not be........use caution! 

Congrats on picking a pair of koi angels off the bat!!  That's impressive!!  How are the wigglers doing now?  Updates??

Cheers,

--Brian

[Brian Scott]

On 10/8/2020 at 12:18 PM, Randy said:

I currently buy my slate cut from an online seller.

I have checked out my local lowes and home depot for the larger pieces of slate that are then cut down for our aquarist purposes but with no luck.

 

Any good suggestions on where I should look?  Maybe local landscape material yards?

Hi Randy,

I enjoy your videos on YouTube very much.  Thanks for taking the time to put them together.  Your latest one with Bob Steenfott was really great.  I'm quite envious of your fishroom!

At any rate, try going to your local tile store and ask them to cut you slate tile to your preferred size.  I find local mom and pop shops will do this for a very low fee.  In my cases....they are usually more fascinated for what you're using the tile for and often will give scraps away from high-end tile jobs.  There you may find other colors, textures, or thicknesses of tile that may be of interest to you.  I've seen some very detailed breeding setups that were very impressive right down to color-cooordinated breeding slates!!  🙂

Hope that helps, cheers!

--Brian

[Bill]

37 minutes ago, Brian Scott said:

When they're in the arrow or dart stage they are swimming all over the place, and are also large enough (in most cases) to where I can avoid sucking them up with my siphon.  I use a piece of hard 3/8-inch thin wall clear tubing attached to a length of vinyl tubing and siphon the bottom mulm and uneaten food stuffs into a 5-gallon bucket.  Old School!!!! 

Wow. There seems to be a lot of info out there saying this needs to be done every few days. How this can be done without sucking them up was driving me crazy. I'm relieved to hear this, and "old school" sounds right to me, so thank you!

[Brian Scott]

1 minute ago, Bill said:

Wow. There seems to be a lot of info out there saying this needs to be done every few days. How this can be done without sucking them up was driving me crazy. I'm relieved to hear this, and "old school" sounds right to me, so thank you!

I think I can get away with my times because of the volume of water and that I feed mostly whole foods.  Those breeding angels and allowing the parents to raise them in smaller tanks combined with the use of "fry foods" cannot get away with it nearly as much.  Those fry foods can really spoil a tank in no time.....especially if the fry don't eat the food quickly.  Smaller more frequent offerings is, as always, suggested, but is open to interpretation by the hobbyist.

Also, regarding the number of times you will allow a pair to attempt to raise their young is totally open to interpretation as well.....IMO anyway.  I have two pairs of marbles that ate a half dozen spawns before that "got it right," but still eat a spawn here and there even today.  I still firmly believe that parent-raised fishes (all types when applicable) are just better breeders down the road. 

Cheers!

[Bill]

43 minutes ago, Brian Scott said:

Congrats on picking a pair of koi angels off the bat!!  That's impressive!!  How are the wigglers doing now?  Updates??

I have to give my daughter credit for that. The guy helping us was experienced with angelfish breeding and thought what they had were all males. My daughter said "that one looks like a female" so we took the pair. I could not believe we found eggs in the tank 2 days later. The pair did not eat the eggs, and I think I evens saw the male spit a few wigglers that broke loose pack on to the PVC. I am really impressed with these! 

 

[Brian Scott]

Here's a quick pic of a pearlscale marble pair.  This pair was in a 29-gallon tank alone at the time of this photo.  They are now it a 53-gallon tank after having just produced about 300 fry last week.  These two are absolute machines!!

 

[Randy]

7 hours ago, Brian Scott said:

Hi Randy,

I enjoy your videos on YouTube very much.  Thanks for taking the time to put them together.  Your latest one with Bob Steenfott was really great.  I'm quite envious of your fishroom!

At any rate, try going to your local tile store and ask them to cut you slate tile to your preferred size.  I find local mom and pop shops will do this for a very low fee.  In my cases....they are usually more fascinated for what you're using the tile for and often will give scraps away from high-end tile jobs.  There you may find other colors, textures, or thicknesses of tile that may be of interest to you.  I've seen some very detailed breeding setups that were very impressive right down to color-cooordinated breeding slates!!  🙂

Hope that helps, cheers!

--Brian

Awesome!  Thank you for the tip on where I can source this!

[Bill]

17 hours ago, Brian Scott said:

I think I can get away with my times because of the volume of water and that I feed mostly whole foods.  Those breeding angels and allowing the parents to raise them in smaller tanks combined with the use of "fry foods" cannot get away with it nearly as much.  Those fry foods can really spoil a tank in no time.....especially if the fry don't eat the food quickly.  Smaller more frequent offerings is, as always, suggested, but is open to interpretation by the hobbyist.

 

This makes a lot of sense. I fed fry food for a day or two before I got the brine shrimp going. It's so much better because instead of sinking it swims around the tank! They can feed on it as needed. 

Since this pair is doing a round in my 20 gallon quarantine tank I'll keep an eye on the water parameters. I picked up a UPETools power gravel vac, which I'd never use as a gravel vac, but it's perfect for siphoning my (low) quarantine tank if I do need to do water changes. It's got small vac attachments that I can position in a corner of the tank away from the fry, and if any do swim near it, it's got an on/off switch to easily kill/resume.  I tried it yesterday, and also got the bottom clean without going near the PVC with the wigglers on it, or pissing the new parents off. 

[Bill]

Hello @Brian Scott, how long do you leave the fry with parents? I read that they start to pick at the parents after 1 week of free swimming, and should be removed at 3 weeks.

I also removed the gravel bottom from my community tank (it was the worst size possible, perfect fry trap) and put some slate in a couple of days ago, and they spawned on the slate yesterday. Any suggestion for grow out tank(s) setup greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Brian Scott]

On 10/17/2020 at 9:31 AM, Bill said:

Hello @Brian Scott, how long do you leave the fry with parents? I read that they start to pick at the parents after 1 week of free swimming, and should be removed at 3 weeks.

I also removed the gravel bottom from my community tank (it was the worst size possible, perfect fry trap) and put some slate in a couple of days ago, and they spawned on the slate yesterday. Any suggestion for grow out tank(s) setup greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

Hey Bill,

Congrats on the nice spawn!

I'm kinda all over the place when it comes to how long I leave the parents and fry together.  I have two marble pairs that I'm sure I can leave the fry with them for a solid month with little to no ill effects on the parents......because I've been doing it that way with them.  My silver angels tire of the fry easier, but one pair will spawn again and again and let the older fry feed on the spawns.  Eventually they start getting nasty to the fry so I remove them.  None of these instances really are a result of the actual parent fish being harmed by the fry, however.

As for gravel, I really do believe that no gravel is best, but I do use some gravel here and there.  The finer the gravel / sand the better off you'll be IME because the fry will not be able to embed themselves into it as much compared to the coarser types with lots of nooks and crannies.

Hope that helps a little!

[Bill]

Thank you @Brian Scott, really appreciate the advice! This is where I read it, note that it references another article and says the behavior is "not well documented." 

Aquaworld Aquarium - Q & A - Angelfish Fry Nibbling on Parents

WWW.AQUAWORLDAQUARIUM.COM

---

Free Online Aquarium and Pond Publication

In any event, glad to hear you've had no issues. It is very cool watching them with the parents. They're getting big really fast on the baby brine shrimp, definitely can't put them in their mouths but still herd them. I noticed a few times when dimming the light and switching it off (there's a night light in the room) they had every single one (about 200) all against the glass in one corner of the tank, in a big column. 

I'm keeping an eye on them anyway, and I'm prepared to move them out at any time if there are issues. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Bill