Ferts burning roots?

[CalmedByFish]

I recently replanted my sword and vals. I made sure their roots were directly on top of root tabs, just because the substrate is shallow.

Now leaves are turning brown on the edges and tips, then the the brown creeps to the middle or base of the leaf before it dies. Other leaves have pinholes. Some turn clear (skeletal) on the edges. Some have dark "freckles."

That sounds like a lot of nutrient deficiencies, but given all the root tabs, that's nearly impossible. 

Chemical burning of the roots is all I can think of. What would your guess be? 

[Mmiller2001]

It's possible. 

[eatyourpeas]

Could they just be melting after replanting? I bought a Melon sword and was showing those symptoms right after planting. Added root tabs and it is now on the road to recovery.

[CalmedByFish]

On 8/13/2021 at 11:57 AM, eatyourpeas said:

Could they just be melting after replanting? I bought a Melon sword and was showing those symptoms right after planting. Added root tabs and it is now on the road to recovery.

I wondered about melting, but it looks different from the melting that happened right after I bought them and initially put them in the tank.

Did your melon show all of the same symptoms, or just a couple? 

[eatyourpeas]

On 8/13/2021 at 10:29 AM, CalmedByFish said:

Did your melon show all of the same symptoms, or just a couple? 

All of them!

[CalmedByFish]

On 8/13/2021 at 12:32 PM, eatyourpeas said:

All of them!

Interesting. It makes sense to me that a plant would show signs of deficiency prior to getting root tabs, but I'm baffled that mine did *after* getting root tabs.

At the same time I replanted the sword and vals, I cut off as much as 1/4 of the leaves. They were specifically among the older ones, and had the yellowing (only) symptom. I wonder if the stress of the "wounds" is part of the problem?

@Jungle Fan I still have your tab open that includes the concept of "amputating" parts of a plant. I wonder if you might know if my cutting off leaves could contribute to all the symptoms my plants suddenly have.

[Jungle Fan]

On 8/13/2021 at 11:40 AM, CalmedByFish said:

Interesting. It makes sense to me that a plant would show signs of deficiency prior to getting root tabs, but I'm baffled that mine did *after* getting root tabs.

At the same time I replanted the sword and vals, I cut off as much as 1/4 of the leaves. They were specifically among the older ones, and had the yellowing (only) symptom. I wonder if the stress of the "wounds" is part of the problem?

@Jungle Fan I still have your tab open that includes the concept of "amputating" parts of a plant. I wonder if you might know if my cutting off leaves could contribute to all the symptoms my plants suddenly have.

@CalmedByFish Cutting off dead leaves on an otherwise healthy plant only contributes to the health of the plant because the non diseased tissue is then better able to heal, however leaving the slowly rotting leaf will speed up a plants demise, or at the very least slow down the healing process if in the meantime sufficient nutrients are provided.

Although I don't know if such a thing as "root burn" from root tabs is possible with Amazon swords, planting them "on top" of root tabs might be your clue of what went wrong. I have only ever planted them at least an inch, or two away from my plants and one root tab in proximity pushed as far down as you can get it is usually enough; for really huge plants I might use two.

Even when I place root tabs under the substrate while setting up a tank weeks before I plant I'm sure I've probably never planted an Amazon sword directly on top of root tabs, at least I've never experienced  one to rot away.

How many root tabs in all did you place with the plant? Or was it just one that you planted the sword on top?

In regards to the thread you are referring to, while what I said about leaf removal was applying to plants in general it was primarily was targeted for the poster's concern about swords for which leaf removal should be done just above the rosette.

Vallisneria , while you can trim them will then show a brown edge where you trimmed and will never regrow a tip. If there are leaves to be removed I'd remove them close to the substrate, a healthy root can then regrow a new leaf, but if you remove all leaves they tend to not do as well as Amazon swords.

Even with Amazon swords one should usually leave at least one leaf behind because by the time even that last one shows extreme nutrient deficiency the root likely will have sustained damage as well.

PS: How shallow is the substrate? And what type is it? Also, are the root tabs the only fertilizer, or are you dosing all-in-one, liquid iron, trace elements, CO2 ,... or anything else besides the root tabs?

Just went back to the thread as well, and I had mentioned:

"...my definition of "damage" is holes, turning brown, turning translucent, everything affecting leaf structure, not so much chlorosis, turning yellow, which is an indication of lack of chlorophyll, the plant is perfectly capable of repairing that with addition of proper nutrient levels. ."

Edited August 13, 2021 by Jungle Fan

[CalmedByFish]

On 8/13/2021 at 1:33 PM, Jungle Fan said:

planting them "on top" of root tabs might be your clue of what went wrong. I have only ever planted them at least an inch, or two away from my plants and one root tab in proximity pushed as far down as you can get it is usually enough; for really huge plants I might use two.

How many root tabs in all did you place with the plant? Or was it just one that you planted the sword on top?

Vallisneria , while you can trim them will then show a brown edge where you trimmed and will never regrow a tip. If there are leaves to be removed I'd remove them close to the substrate

PS: How shallow is the substrate? And what type is it? Also, are the root tabs the only fertilizer, or are you dosing all-in-one, liquid iron, trace elements, CO2 ,... or anything else besides the root tabs?

Just went back to the thread as well, and I had mentioned:

"...my definition of "damage" is holes, turning brown, turning translucent, everything affecting leaf structure, not so much chlorosis, turning yellow, which is an indication of lack of chlorophyll, the plant is perfectly capable of repairing that with addition of proper nutrient levels. ."

The pieces of your reply that I copied above stand out to me as big mistakes I made.

The sword had 4 root tabs, a couple inches apart, on the floor. Then the roots spread out evenly on top the tabs, then 2 inches of gravel to hold it all in place. The vals were planted similarly.

I also use Easy Green - though I haven't added any since adding this total of 19 root tabs to the tank, since adding them did increase the nitrate level in the water after a couple days. I only use those 2 ferts. No CO2. 

Most of the val leaves I cut were cut up near the top, just cutting off the brown/yellow ends.

Regarding the part you put in bold, what I cut off was mostly yellow, but with some brown and translucent parts. So it sounds like I should've cut significantly less.

Gosh. What now? I don't know if I should try to dig out the root tabs, or just stop messing with it and allow it to stabilize. I know plants always struggle when messed with, so I hesitate to continue pestering them.

[Griznatch]

Following this.

I have in the past added root tabs directly underneath the plants, and have got what you are describing happen to those.

[Patrick_G]

It happens in the terrestrial horticulture world, especially when folks over enthusiastically fertilize their lawn. 

[Jungle Fan]

On 8/13/2021 at 2:39 PM, CalmedByFish said:

The pieces of your reply that I copied above stand out to me as big mistakes I made.

The sword had 4 root tabs, a couple inches apart, on the floor. Then the roots spread out evenly on top the tabs, then 2 inches of gravel to hold it all in place. The vals were planted similarly.

I also use Easy Green - though I haven't added any since adding this total of 19 root tabs to the tank, since adding them did increase the nitrate level in the water after a couple days. I only use those 2 ferts. No CO2. 

Most of the val leaves I cut were cut up near the top, just cutting off the brown/yellow ends.

Regarding the part you put in bold, what I cut off was mostly yellow, but with some brown and translucent parts. So it sounds like I should've cut significantly less.

Gosh. What now? I don't know if I should try to dig out the root tabs, or just stop messing with it and allow it to stabilize. I know plants always struggle when messed with, so I hesitate to continue pestering them.

@CalmedByFish we all make mistakes, in my 53 years of keeping fish and plants I have made lots of them, first of all don't beat yourself up over them.

Normally I place root tabs every six inches in my tank, I try to keep them with at least one inch of distance from the swords, or crypts. I don't recall you mentioning the size of your tank but instead of trying to dig up root tabs, which would probably just fall apart and end up in the water column, I would move the plant away from the top of the root tab.

While you do that you can inspect the root if it is still white and firm, or brown and mush. If it is mush it won't recover, if it is white and firm, then you can remove any leaves that are brown, or translucent with holes, leaving those to recover that are simply just yellow, a condition called chlorosis caused by lack of chlorophyll which it needs to use light for photosynthesis. Trim the roots back to about 2.5 to 3 inches left, this will encourage the sword to develop new roots and anchor itself at the new location.

In regards to the Vallisneria I would move them off the root tab as well if you have them directly on top, The cuts you made were o.k. with them, you'll see the brown line where you cut them but if the leaves were green below the cut they should be fine. Inspect the roots the same way as you do with the swords, and I would also do the same in regards to trimming and moving the roots. The trimmed Vallisneria won't look real pretty for a while but in time it will grow new leaves at which time you can remove the current ones at just above the substrate level if you like, or you can let them grow with the rest of the leaves whichever you prefer. 

Plants are much more resilient than many believe and in general will recover as long as the roots are still fine. Just for illustration some of my very big Amazon swords in the past I have propagated by slicing with a razor blade straight through the rosette to create two new plants and they took about four months to recover, but recover they did.

With all the root tabs and the Easy Green your plants should be doing fine, if you notice continued chlorosis, the yellow leaves, then you might need to extend your photoperiod, the length of time you run your lights, or it could be you might need to add some trace elements.

I hope you don't feel discouraged, and I hope this helps.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Jungle Fan

[CalmedByFish]

On 8/13/2021 at 3:45 PM, Patrick_G said:

It happens in the terrestrial horticulture world, especially when folks over enthusiastically fertilize their lawn. 

 

On 8/13/2021 at 3:44 PM, Griznatch said:

Following this.

I have in the past added root tabs directly underneath the plants, and have got what you are describing happen to those.

 

On 8/13/2021 at 4:32 PM, Jungle Fan said:

I don't recall you mentioning the size of your tank but instead of trying to dig up root tabs, which would probably just fall apart and end up in the water column, I would move the plant away from the top of the root tab.

While you do that you can inspect the root if it is still white and firm, or brown and mush. If it is mush it won't recover, if it is white and firm... Trim the roots back to about 2.5 to 3 inches left

In regards to the Vallisneria I would move them off the root tab as well if you have them directly on top... Inspect the roots the same way as you do with the swords

Plants are much more resilient than many believe and in general will recover as long as the roots are still fine. 

Okay, so apparently we know what happened to my plants. Good. Thank you... But can we all just pause to see the "aiming for sustainable" in my signature, and roll our eyes together? 🙄 Ugh!

The "size of the tank" is actually tupperware being used as pots, so I can easily put the plants in tubs of water when I move (which I thought would've happened by now, but looks months away). That means I can't just relocate them in the tank.

After a good staring, I decided to leave the val. Since the repotting with too many root tabs, 3 of the 5 pots have made a baby val, so apparently something is going to survive. I can be okay with that. 

But the only sword looked worse than it did even just this morning. So I pulled it off the tabs, and am letting it float until I make a plan. I could only find 3 roots on it that truly look good. The longest of the 3 is about 1 1/2". 

Interestingly, on the sword and most vals, the roots have always been short. I'd say the average length is an inch. The vast majority of the roots, though not mushy, are kinda black. The coloring is similar to mildew or mold.