UV Sterilizers

[Stella]

What is everyone's thoughts on UV sterilizers for killing aquarium bacteria, especially Fish TB.  I have a tank that I've had some unexplained losses, and I'm wondering if the tank has somehow picked up Fish TB.  Will the UV sterilizer help at all?  If they will help what size bulb would need to be used to be effective?  

Thanks!!

[Fish Folk]

I am not sure that a UV sterilizer would solve this problem. Here is a long article on "Fish TB" (Mycobacterial Infections). According to this report, mycobacterial infections are untreatable in ornamental fish.

https://thefishsite.com/articles/mycobacterial-infections-of-fish

What are the symptoms of the fish that died on you?

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:13 PM, Stella said:

Will the UV sterilizer help at all? 

Yes, in a limited sense.  First, let’s clarify some misconceptions…

First… The term “Fish TB” is a misnomer, fish do not contract tuberculosis.  They are, however, at risk of infection by “Mycobacterium”.  

Under normal circumstances a healthy immune system fights potential serious infection without even being apparent.  But when a fish’s immune system is compromised, a full on infection is possible.

Second…. Contrary to popular belief, exposure to UV radiation does not “kill” (or even deactivate) any microorganism.  What is does is render said pathogens (or non pathogens) unable to reproduce.  Also, only organism directed into the UV chamber will be affected.

It’s not going to have any affect on the pathogen that is already residing in the fish itself.  Those are free to do their damage, and reproduce inside the host without interference.

What it will do is reduce the numbers that come into contact with the light (the pathogens without an existing host, who are living in the water column).

Reducing the number can help by limiting introduction of new bacteria to an already infected population.

If the fish can fight off the existing  internal infection kn it’s own, then the chance for reinfection is reduced.

So, yes, it can be a benefit, but as you should surmise, not a big one.

 

 

[Stella]

Correct, it won't cure the fish that potentially have it now, but would the sterilizer prevent the bacteria from being free floating in the water?  Lets say I got a few new fish (hypothetically) would it keep them from becoming infected.

I've lost 6 fish so far, and for a little background on them.  They were all female bettas that I had acquired from the same breeder and the same shipment within the last 1.5 months.  All of them were in quarantine in 2 separate tanks, but unfortunately I had recently taken 2 out of qt and put them in the sorority tank. 

• The first one I lost was soon after receiving - she an injury that had some fungus I cleared that up - Then she got dropsy after the fungus had cleared, and passed within a couple of days.
• The second betta I lost had dropsy
• The third, & fourth just stopped eating 
• The fifth was fine one day and dead the next no symptoms
• The sixth looked to have a cut or something on her side - I removed her from the tank and put her back in a qt tank and treated with antibiotics, but the cut turned in to a gaping wound and she only lived a couple of days.  This one I'm pretty sure was an injury in the tank, as I found a sharp piece of slate exposed.  It has now been covered.

[Stella]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:13 PM, tonyjuliano said:

Yes, in a limited sense.  First, let’s clarify some misconceptions…

First… The term “Fish TB” is a misnomer, fish do not contract tuberculosis.  They are, however, at risk of infection by “Mycobacterium”.  

Under normal circumstances a healthy immune system fights potential serious infection without even being apparent.  But when a fish’s immune system is compromised, a full on infection is possible.

Second…. Contrary to popular belief, exposure to UV radiation does not “kill” (or even deactivate) any microorganism.  What is does is render said pathogens (or non pathogens) unable to reproduce.  Also, only organism directed into the UV chamber will be affected.

It’s not going to have any affect on the pathogen that is already residing in the fish itself.  Those are free to do their damage, and reproduce inside the host without interference.

What it will do is reduce the numbers that come into contact with the light (the pathogens without an existing host, who are living in the water column).

Reducing the number can help by limiting introduction of new bacteria to an already infected population.

If the fish can fight off the existing  internal infection kn it’s own, then the chance for reinfection is reduced.

So, yes, it can be a benefit, but as you should surmise, not a big one.

 

 

Thank you!  My other thought on reducing the number of bacteria that are free floating is to minimize the risk to myself.  I know that this bacteria is zoonotic, and wanted to take all precautions just in case.   

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/26/2021 at 12:13 AM, Stella said:

would the sterilizer prevent the bacteria from being free floating in the water?

No, it won’t.  It will, however, render all that have been radiated, unable to increase their number.  Bacterium have a very short lifespan, without the ability to reproduce, their number will eventually dwindle and disappear.

oh, and one more thing, and this is something that is often overlooked.

UV is indiscriminate, all organisms, even beneficial ones are subject.

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/26/2021 at 12:13 AM, Stella said:

The first one

Etc.

From your recounting if the details, it would seem that a full on infection by Mycobacterium is exactly what is going on.  
You need to quarantine all who have had ANY prior contact, treat and hope for the best - but expect the worst.

[Stella]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:26 PM, tonyjuliano said:

Etc.

From your recounting if the details, it would seem that a full on infection by Mycobacterium is exactly what is going on.  
You need to quarantine all who have had ANY prior contact, treat and hope for the best - but expect the worst.

😢  That's what I as afraid of.  Everyone that has been exposed are either in the qt tank, or the sorority tank.  I have 7 female bettas that live together in a 30 gallon tank (they are the only occupants).  I hate the thought of losing those 7.  I just got back in to the fish keeping hobby, and they were the first fish I got.  This entire ordeal has been very disheartening. 

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/26/2021 at 12:37 AM, Stella said:

This entire ordeal has been very disheartening. 

I can imagine…. You have my sympathy.

[ARMYVET]

@tonyjuliano Correct me if I am wrong but wont all tanks and everything inside them that have been exposed need to be sterilized BEFORE the addition of any new livestock to keep from reinfection?  Even with a UV there is no guarantee that all of the Bacteria will have gone thru it. 

 

[Guppysnail]

Hi not helpful to your fish but maybe to you. benzalkonium chloride The active ingredient in Lysol (not the free and clear that’s peroxide). Is the most effect against Mycobacteria it deteriorates the lipid wall. Not fish safe. Bleach must be 30 minute solution soak to be effective.  

I got a Mycobacteria infection from hubbies used fish hook caught in my finger. Hospital gave me that info

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:21 AM, ARMYVET said:

@tonyjuliano Correct me if I am wrong but wont all tanks and everything inside them that have been exposed need to be sterilized BEFORE the addition of any new livestock to keep from reinfection?  Even with a UV there is no guarantee that all of the Bacteria will have gone thru it. 

 

Yes, that would be the most prudent approach, but keep in mind, the harmful bacteria responsible are almost always present.in any aquarium, in moderate numbers.

What usually causes harm is a breakdown in a particular fish’s immune system, creating a host that provides ideal conditions for widespread propagation.

it’s a numbers game.

A “normal” level of potentially harmful bacteria and healthy fish? You would never even know anything was going on.  But when conditions exist for any individual to become comprised, it sets into action an huge increase in the number of harmful pathogens.

This “density” can infect even previously health fish, creating a domino effect.

Edited June 26, 2021 by tonyjuliano

[ARMYVET]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:46 AM, tonyjuliano said:

Yes, that would be the most prudent approach, but keep in mind, the harmful bacteria responsible are almost always present.in any aquarium, in moderate numbers.

What usually causes harm is a breakdown in a particular fish’s immune system, creating a host that provides ideal conditions for widespread propagation.

it’s a numbers game.

A “normal” level of potentially harmful bacteria and healthy fish? You would never even know anything was going on.  But when conditions exist for any individual to become comprised, it sets into action an huge increase in the number of harmful pathogens.

This “density” can infect even previously health fish, creating a domino effect.

Yeah I think If I suffered a catastrophic loss like the one being described....I would sterilize everything just for my own peace of mind going on the theory that it cant hurt....LOL

[Stella]

On 6/26/2021 at 7:06 AM, ARMYVET said:

Yeah I think If I suffered a catastrophic loss like the one being described....I would sterilize everything just for my own peace of mind going on the theory that it cant hurt....LOL

I will sterilize everything if I lose them all. I plan to clean with bleach or lysol and then let everything dry out for a month or more. I’ll also throw substrates and filters away.  Hopefully that will take care of anything going on in there.  Will I need to toss my live plants?  Also can I salvage my driftwood by baking and boiling?

[ARMYVET]

Yes you can save the driftwood by boiling that will kill everything on/in the wood.  It will also help with tannins if there are any left.  You can bleach everything then rinse really well then fill with water and use heavy dosage of dechlor no need to dry out for a month. Let sit for a day with dechlor,  drain ...rinse and repeat and in 2 -3 days your ready to re setup.

As for the live plants....I dont know....thats a good question. Maybe @tonyjuliano will be able to chime in with an answer for that. 

[tonyjuliano]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:00 AM, ARMYVET said:

As for the live plants....I dont know....thats a good question.

And one I have no definitive answer for.

it would seem to me that a through cleaning with the appropriate bleach dilution would do the trick.

[ARMYVET]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:44 AM, tonyjuliano said:

And one I have no definitive answer for.

it would seem to me that a through cleaning with the appropriate bleach dilution would do the trick.

Are you thinking a chlorine dip for the LIVE plants?  How would you go about performing that?  Of course I wouldn't hold you to anything as nothing is ever certain but what dilution of bleach to water and what length of time for dip would you recommend?

[Guppysnail]

On 6/26/2021 at 11:55 AM, ARMYVET said:

Are you thinking a chlorine dip for the LIVE plants?  How would you go about performing that?  Of course I wouldn't hold you to anything as nothing is ever certain but what dilution of bleach to water and what length of time for dip would you recommend?

6 oz to one gallon for bleach 30 minutes is what the hospital recommended for hubbies equipment to be effective against Mycobacteria so it didn’t happen again but it would kill the plants. I would try the Lysol as it’s quicker and more effective on small pieces of plants to see how they tolerate it then rinse rinse rinse...sorry to butt in. 

[Stella]

@Guppysnail Thank you!  You are not butting in at all. I appreciate everyone’s suggestions! How long did the hospital say that it took the lysol to kill the bacteria?  Also are we talking the aerosol lysol or the all purpose liquid cleaner?

Would a dip in potassium permanganate kill the Myco bacteria?

Edited June 26, 2021 by Stella

[Guppysnail]

Either one as long as the ingredient benzalkonium chloride is in it. Like I said some versions like free and clear use hydrogen peroxide instead. 2 minutes minimum 5 to be safe is what they said. I would take and do little pieces and see what the max they can tolerate up to the 5 minutes. I have no clue as to its affect on plants

[Guppysnail]

I have no clue about PP. I’ve never used it

[Stella]

I just wanted to give everyone an update.  I lost the last of my betta sorority this morning, and I'm absolutely heartbroken.   I'm going to break this tank down, and throw EVERYTHING away, and start over.  It was only a 30 gallon tank which petco has them super cheap right now, so I would rather get a new one than try to disinfect.  I am going to add a UV sterilizer to the new setup just to cover bases, and make myself feel better.  

[Guppysnail]

I am so sorry to hear but I would do exactly what you are doing and start new

[BenA]

Am sorry to read this, however a question that maybe someone can answer. Will Formalin clear the bacteria? Years ago I used to add it to my tank as a precaution.

Thanks

[ARMYVET]

I would take that sucker outside fill it up and bleach the hell out of it and let it sit full of bleach water for a week....then wash it out and refill and let sit with dechlorinater.  I would not let it beat me!