Rummy nose run-down

[Funkroll5050]

• pH   8.3
• Nitrates   10-20
• Hardness   150- 300
• Nitrite 0
• Ammonia 0
• KH/Buffer  120-180
• Water Temperature above 78

"new" 65 gallon tank. Got this 65 gallon and established canister from offerup. I dont try to change my water parameters.

Before we got the rummys and cardinals, the tank was occupied by a dozen ember tetras, 8 platys, 1 betta, and a couple guppies, and had gotten over a battle with ick where 1 platy was lost. after building a new stand, I moved the tank, and ditched all the old substrate and added most of the plants in the picture. 

The tank was then set up the way you see here. Cardinals and rummy nose added, a dozen-ish of each, and a handful-ish of new guppies. Since the tank is very new, I did not quarantine the new 2 dozen cardinals and rummys. The rummy nose were voracious eaters and the cardinals were also putting on weight for a week or 2. All the while, I am needlessly turning up the temp shooting for 80 degrees, unbeknownst to me my IR temp gun is reading about 4-5 degrees lower than the actual temp of the tank. ALL of the tetras (rummy, cardinal, and embers) got ick. Only the tetras. Eventually I got a cheap sinking thermometer. The rummys were really suffering from the ick. A few of them would keel over when they stop swimming and then right themselves as they began moving again. Highest temp I read with the cheap thermometer was 84. I sent the temps back down toward 78. Treated with super ich cure in the DT for a few days and no improvements, only decline in the rummy nose.

Did I give my tetras ick by stressing them with a temperature increase over the course of a few days? Is it possible my betta is stressing the fish? I do not notice aggression towards the tetras during the day, only the guppies and platys, but I am now concerned about night time activities. 

Lost nearly all rummys, embers are still trucking and begging for food, the cardinals are doing decent. All tetras and male platys and random guppies are in the 10 gal QT now. Treating with ick x and salt (1 Tbsp per 2 gal). Thanks for the tips.

[CorydorasEthan]

1 hour ago, Funkroll5050 said:

• pH   8.3
• Nitrates   10-20
• Hardness   150- 300
• Nitrite 0
• Ammonia 0
• KH/Buffer  120-180
• Water Temperature above 78

"new" 65 gallon tank. Got this 65 gallon and established canister from offerup. I dont try to change my water parameters.

Before we got the rummys and cardinals, the tank was occupied by a dozen ember tetras, 8 platys, 1 betta, and a couple guppies, and had gotten over a battle with ick where 1 platy was lost. after building a new stand, I moved the tank, and ditched all the old substrate and added most of the plants in the picture. 

The tank was then set up the way you see here. Cardinals and rummy nose added, a dozen-ish of each, and a handful-ish of new guppies. Since the tank is very new, I did not quarantine the new 2 dozen cardinals and rummys. The rummy nose were voracious eaters and the cardinals were also putting on weight for a week or 2. All the while, I am needlessly turning up the temp shooting for 80 degrees, unbeknownst to me my IR temp gun is reading about 4-5 degrees lower than the actual temp of the tank. ALL of the tetras (rummy, cardinal, and embers) got ick. Only the tetras. Eventually I got a cheap sinking thermometer. The rummys were really suffering from the ick. A few of them would keel over when they stop swimming and then right themselves as they began moving again. Highest temp I read with the cheap thermometer was 84. I sent the temps back down toward 78. Treated with super ich cure in the DT for a few days and no improvements, only decline in the rummy nose.

Did I give my tetras ick by stressing them with a temperature increase over the course of a few days? Is it possible my betta is stressing the fish? I do not notice aggression towards the tetras during the day, only the guppies and platys, but I am now concerned about night time activities. 

Lost nearly all rummys, embers are still trucking and begging for food, the cardinals are doing decent. All tetras and male platys and random guppies are in the 10 gal QT now. Treating with ick x and salt (1 Tbsp per 2 gal). Thanks for the tips.

Sorry to hear this. If I know anything about tetras, they prefer lower pH water, like 6.5-7.5 I think. Could it be the high pH (you mentioned 8.3) that is upsetting them and making them more vulnerable to ich? I am no expert, so this might not have anything to do with the problem.

Also, according to what I've read, high temperatures are used to combat ich. Lower temperatures like 78 allow the ich to thrive. But I think the cause of ich might have to do with the stress of the quickly raising temperature, rather than the temperature itself.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Great looking tank by the way.

[Daniel]

Rummy noses can be iffy at first.  Here was @Brandy's experience back from the 1st week of the forum:

 

[Brandy]

Yeah, Cory did a video (link in the thread above) where he got rummy nose in 2 big batches from the same vendor a week apart, and kept them in identical tanks, fed the same food, same filtration, same water, same meds. One batch had minimal losses and thrived, the other was decimated, and the difference was just shocking. It is my experience with the common tetras in general that if they make it thru the first few weeks they are nice and hardy, but some just arrive too stressed to make it, and they decline and die rapidly. They don't take to shipping well at all, and unless you are in the tropics they are unlikely to be locally raised. Of all the fish to quarentine, a big batch of tetras is the most critical in my opinion.

[Funkroll5050]

I should mention that I got my cardinals, rummys, and second batch of guppies from LFS, with similar water parameters to my own water source. Though that doesnt necessarily mean the waters perfect for them. Embers, Platys, couple guppies and betta came from big box.

Now that we mention it, one of the rummys died shortly after going into DT from the LFS which was about 20 min away. I noticed it was not doing well in the bag. I chalked it up to him being pinched somehow in the corner.  I guess it was an omen.

Sounds like I got a sensitive lot of rummys and then probably stressed them with water temps that they may not have been accustomed to. Its just crazy that only the tetras got ick and only the rummy nose suffered casualties; which is why it sorta makes sense that the tetras all got ick since they were all subjected to the same stress of the temp increase.🤷‍♂️ Boy, that was a mistake. 

This is day 3 in the QT for the tetras, random guppies and male platys. Plan is to QT them for a week after I notice the ick is gone, and then possibly treat for internal parasites and maybe bacterial infections, and then wait another week to move back to DT. Does that sound reasonable?

Once im done with this we're diving back in for rummy nose. To the QT they will go. I will consider buying online and having them shipped to me directly. That would be a first. Thanks for the advice.

[Brandy]

I have tried tetras from a LFS, big box, and direct shipped. It all depends on the LFS. If your LFS is the CoOP, and they QT and medicate, then it is crazy worth it, as the dieoff likely happened in THEIR QT. The higher price represents their loss rate as well as the extra time and care. 

If you don't have that, buy cheap and expect a long QT and potential heavy losses.

[Matt_]

On 4/9/2021 at 6:37 AM, Daniel said:

Rummy noses can be iffy at first.  Here was @Brandy's experience back from the 1st week of the forum:

 

I have had the same experience with rummy nose tetras as well.  In my lastest experience I decided not to set up the QT tank (huge mistake) because I did not have a heater and the pet shop that I purchased them from did not have one either (I blame myself for this result).  I lost four out of five rummy nose tetras, an adult female guppy, and my female betta to an aggressive bacterial infection with meds before bringing the tank back under control (I hope anyway).  This is not the first time that I have lost an entire group of rummy nose either and they have all looked disease free from a tank with no dead fish when I purchased them.

I will not get another group of rummy nose without QT and preventative med/salt treatment which still may not be enough.  I will also go to the lower turnover LFS that sells rummy nose tetras for double the price but that takes the initial losses.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Daniel are we also implying that this might go for ALL neon species ? I just got 14 Bllack Neons and lost 1 so far, didn't look at all ill. They seem to be behaving normally

[Matt_]

Black Neons are extremely hardy, but once Ich gets established in the host fish it can be really difficult to reduce back to invisible levels in the tank.  The rummy nose may have also had an unseen bacterial infection or were already stressed from changed water parameters (from the originating source or store) or from shipping that made them more susceptible to Ich.  Treatment is only effective while the Ich is floating in the water column so be sure to follow the directions on the Ich-X bottle and dose at full strength.  You should see results within a few days after the current cysts fall off the host fish.  Raising the water temperature will also shorten the cycle and you should be covered for the reduced dissolved oxygen levels with two airstones in the tank.  The Aquarium Coop video has a good explanation if you have not seen it yet:  How To Treat Ich On Fish - Tested On 1,000s Of Fish. - Bing video

[Daniel]

1 hour ago, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Daniel are we also implying that this might go for ALL neon species ? I just got 14 Bllack Neons and lost 1 so far, didn't look at all ill. They seem to be behaving normally

All I’m saying is I’ve seen mass die offs happened initially in Rummynose, Cardinals etc. And after that everything is stable. The transportation process just seems to be stressful. I’m not sure that the fish are sick in the conventional sense, but something about moving them around can cause problems.