For the love of inverts

[MorbidFinch]

Hi folks. I would like to have snails and shrimp in my freshwater tanks, but unfortunately in Maine (where I live) these are not technically legal to own (not one species of invert at all!). I’m hoping you can help.

I’ve been in contact with the state department that oversees this, and the primary concern would be the invasiveness of species. In my preliminary dialogue where I posited a few species, they seem to think that Nerite snails and Amano shrimp seem to have a low chance of become invasive in the wild and worth putting forward for further review, so good news there. There is a formal process to have species considered, and the more information the better.

My Google-fu is respectable, and I have lots of resources on how to keep these animals happy and healthy. What I need more of is information that would build a case as to how these tropical freshwater inverts would have a very low likelihood of establishing themselves in the Maine wild. Intuitively you would think as cold as it gets in Maine in the winter, that tropical animals wouldn’t stand a chance, but I need as much solid scientific information as I can gather to support this directly.

My initial petition would probably be some of the most popular, common, and loved species: Mystery snails (Pomacea bridgesii), Nerite snails (Neritina sp.), Amano shrimp (Caridina multidentata), and Neocaridina shrimp (Neocaridina sp.). I’ve grouped the Nerites and Neocaridina together as they seem to be generally either very similar or treated as a group in the hobby as far as care and water parameters are concerned. I know that species such as Mystery snails can be invasive, but I’ve only found evidence for this specific species in tropical areas that quite closely resemble their natural habitat. If you have information otherwise though, please also share it as well. I respect the state’s efforts in this, and only want to put forth those species that seem reasonable.

I’m having difficulty finding information that seems to be specific to this. If you have information or experience, or know of an expert in the biology or ecology, of these animals, and would like to help us aquarists in the frozen tundra have these awesome animals in our tanks, we would appreciate it. Thanks in advance for any resources you may have or suggestions. I know this is a bit out of scope for the forum.

[Socqua]

I've never looked into this before, but a quick Google shows multiple stores in Maine selling invertebrates, including Petco. Do they have a special license? I'd be curious how they can sell if inverts are truly banned.

[MorbidFinch]

They don't in store. Their website is generally wrong in that regard.

[Socqua]

Wow. Obviously I'm going to be no help and you've done your research, I just wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. Alternatively, maybe you could consider smuggling some in and making loads of money on what might be a lucrative black market 😁.

Side note, I read that crayfish might be legal? If so that's bizarre, as they might actually be invasive whereas most tropical shrimp and snails definitely would not be. Also, while I'm rambling, I assume every surrounding state (and Canada) has no restrictions, so that might help your argument.

[CT_]

IDK how they manage requests like that there but if its a simple yea or nay on your request I'd keep it pretty narrow so the whole thing doesn't get rejected.   You can always submit more than one proposal over time but if a broad one gets knocked down it may act as lazy precedent to knock down future proposals that have some of the same species as the original.

[MorbidFinch]

10 minutes ago, Socqua said:

 smuggling some in and making loads of money on what might be a lucrative black market 😁.

Side note, I read that crayfish might be legal? 

LOL. Most online retailers will sell and ship them (I've been told), but they won't do restricted plants (go figure). And you're right, it would be easy enough to travel over the border and stock up, I just generally try to respect local laws, especially when there is good reason behind it. Maine actually has a list of what is allowed, and it has no inverts at all. Technically any animal not on that list is illegal to possess. I feel it's because it's easier to just say everything's illegal, and then start an allowed list, than the other way around.

[MorbidFinch]

2 minutes ago, CT_ said:

IDK how they manage requests like that there but if its a simple yea or nay on your request I'd keep it pretty narrow so the whole thing doesn't get rejected.   You can always submit more than one proposal over time but if a broad one gets knocked down it may act as lazy precedent to knock down future proposals that have some of the same species as the original.

Thanks. I was hoping on more thoughts on that. Maybe just start with the two that they said seemed reasonable and see how the process goes. I haven't keep shrimp so I wasn't sure how similar, for instance, all the Neocaridina would be. I think starting with one species and working up to the whole genus makes sense though.

[CT_]

I think pretty much every "neo" is a neocardina david.  And

[FrozenFins]

what I can say, that may not help your odds but...

Cory has said multiple times that in his experiance neocardina shrimp such as cherry shrimp have even spawned under a layer of ice. Whats the average temp in the winter in maine?

[Will Billy]

As I understand it, your home state is concerned that “if” released, it could become an invasive species. One example of this is in Hawaii with neocaridina shrimp that through combination of out performing native species in regards to reproducing, consuming available food, escaping predation, etc... that they are driving out and supplanting native shrimp species. In order to prove something is non-invasive to your local ecosystems, you need a baseline of what wildlife you have in your local ecosystems. Do you have local wildlife that will prey upon said organism? Are there similar organisms that can get displaced by said organism through food competition, mating and propagation, or can the organism carry parasites that native species are unaccustomed to? I know this seems like a tall order, because, well it is. But if your willing to do the leg work might i suggest seeking advice from professors at a local university. They may know what information is needed, and where to find it.  Or a fun thought is you could even get permits to have said species, if said species was involved in a scientific research study (by you) to determine invasiveness of said organism, and may even be able to apply for grants to setup an experiment. Either way for what you are trying to accomplish you need some professional biologists, ecologist, and maybe a lawyer (for the ins and outs of the legal system, and a better idea of how detailed you need to be) to assist you in your endeavor. Its far easier for a politician to ban a species even without evidence because it covers them for liability where nothing can go wrong, vs allowing a species with little to no evidence could have unforeseen consequence. Good luck to you. Sorry i couldn't give you the exact facts needed, but maybe i helped steer you in the right direction. 

[Streetwise]

Neocaridina are legal in Vermont. We are close to Maine.

I like to keep up with my state regulations via official sites and co-operatives.

https://dec.vermont.gov/watershed/lakes-ponds/aquatic-invasives/laws-and-regs

https://www.vtinvasives.org

Now I know that my state even has a section on private ponds:

https://dec.vermont.gov/watershed/lakes-ponds/private-ponds 

[Will Billy]

As i was thinking about this topic some more, a thought occurred to me. Apparently through some quick research it seems that the fishing, crab, and lobster industry is the main cause of concern that led to protection of rivers, estuaries and so forth. Just a cursory glance at your state laws, it seems freshwater crabs are on the good list. That said, someone has done what you are attempting to do before. Rather than re-invent the wheel, try taking a look at the blueprints. Maybe you could ask your state department to show you some documentation on how other species got on the “it’s ok list”, to give you a better idea of what info they are looking for and how it was presented. 

[Kat_Rigel]

This is quite an undertaking, and I wish you luck. As previously mentioned, keep in mind that it is possible for you to present a bullet proof case and still "lose" through no fault of your own- there is a LOT of politics involved.

That said, I recommend sticking to peer-reviewed scientific papers. For example:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=Caridina+multidentata&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DSYawmNgfbo4J

Google scholar is a great resource. The above article is from 2016, which is technically a little bit old. Look for the most recent articles possible- for example, look for articles that reference the above one, since they'll be newer.

The other problem you will have while doing this is getting stopped by the paywall. You would think science would be free knowledge, but the journals that publish it think otherwise. I do NOT recommend paying to access anything- instead, you can often work around it by visiting a library, or if you have a friend in college, they usually have some access to articles online (they should ask their school library.)

Best of luck! The Maine laws are SO restrictive! I don't honestly know that I could live there with such rules! 😅

[ChefConfit]

Well both nerite and amanos need brackish water to reproduce. That combined with the temps not being very conducive to their survival should give them a very low chance of ever becoming a problem.

You could also look at species that have reputations for being hard to keep/breed. If they need very specific parameters to survive and or breed they are unlikely to become an issue if released. 

[MorbidFinch]

8 hours ago, James Black said:

what I can say, that may not help your odds but...

Cory has said multiple times that in his experiance neocardina shrimp such as cherry shrimp have even spawned under a layer of ice. Whats the average temp in the winter in maine?

Air temperatures for the lows average in the teens generally, but in the ponds and lakes it varies quite a bit. Some of the information on the Maine state website seems to say that at the bottom of lakes the water can stay at 39 degrees even in the winter.

[Hobbit]

I’d definitely recommend looking at scientific research articles as a starting point, even just to see what’s been studied and what hasn’t. The author lists may give you some names to email if you have further questions!

I’m not sure that the mystery snail we use in aquariums is the same as the mystery snail discussed in the scientific literature (which is usually called the Chinese Mystery Snail) but I know for a fact those are HIGHLY invasive. I was actually shocked the first time I saw them in a pet store. I worked in an aquatic ecology lab in South Bend, IN as an undergrad and they were always talking about mystery snails. A quick search on google scholar pulls up a ton of papers on their invasive-ness, including in cold places like Wisconsin. So save yourself some work and don’t try to get that one approved. 😅

[MorbidFinch]

On 1/31/2021 at 11:05 PM, Will Billy said:

i suggest seeking advice from professors at a local university. 

Thanks for the thoughts. I've already started trying to track someone down, or more accurately, track someone down to track someone down.

On 2/1/2021 at 12:06 AM, Will Billy said:

That said, someone has done what you are attempting to do before. 

I actually tried persuing this in the bit of dialogue I had with the State. I figured that there had to have been someone who has put an invert forward for review, with as popular as they are in the hobby. That's where I put forward my short list and was told there had never been an invert suggested before. Then I learned this process is very vague and difficult to navigate. I'm going to see what happens though and learn from it. I was going to maybe crowd source some like-minded people in Maine but no luck so far.

[Levi_Aquatics]

Sounds like an interesting problem with unclear rules and regulations! I hope you are able to figure it out and get some inverts! Good luck!

[MorbidFinch]

On 2/1/2021 at 1:11 AM, Kat_Rigel said:

Google scholar is a great resource...The other problem you will have while doing this is getting stopped by the paywall. 

😅

Thanks. I'll have to look into that. In the past I've contacted the author's of papers like this directly and they usually share them quite freely. Maybe that's still the case.

On 2/1/2021 at 1:11 AM, Kat_Rigel said:

Best of luck! The Maine laws are SO restrictive! I don't honestly know that I could live there with such rules! 

Right? Can't have a snail but feel free to have 20 assault rifles.

[MorbidFinch]

On 2/1/2021 at 11:19 AM, Hobbit said:

I’m not sure that the mystery snail we use in aquariums is the same as the mystery snail discussed in the scientific literature (which is usually called the Chinese Mystery Snail) but I know for a fact those are HIGHLY invasive. 

They are not the same species (Chinese one is Cipangopaludina chinensis vs Pomacea bridgesii, so different genus even) and I was also surprised they were mentioned in Wisconsin. Hopefully the similar common name doesn't cause problems.

[Hobbit]

@MorbidFinch that’s very good to know! I feel better about our hobby as a whole now. 😄

[Will Billy]

Here is a link to an article that talks about how the aquarium hobby has saved over 30 different species of fish from global extinction due to habitat loss, commercial fishing, and other human interventions.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ratemyfishtank.com/amp/blog/aquarium-hobbyists-help-save-30-species-from-extinction

If you could argue that invertebrates help to establish healthy captive ecosystems, that promotes conservation efforts, that would give you a positive position to add on to your case. The addition of these invertebrates, would also no doubt be a boost to your local aquarium hobby economy. If and when a particular ban is lifted no doubt other hobbyist like yourself will be beating down the doors to local pet stores to finally have the chance to own these invertebrates. Not only would you be making an effort to prove, or in this case disprove invasiveness. You would be presenting a case that could show the positive impacts of lifting bans on certain species. I agree with blanket bans on invasive species like snake head for example. Even though there are dwarf varieties that have been found to be not as invasive as their larger cousins, human error could still occur and it takes just one person to let them loose and cause substantial ecological damage. I do however feel like your states blanket ban of all invertebrates is too broad a definition, and a bit overkill based in part of fear from a lack of information. You my friend may very well be the invertebrate hero for the aquarium trade in your state.