General Plant Health Woes

[Martin]

Heya gang,

Just wanted to ask for opinions on next steps for one of my planted tanks that is chiefly populated by various species of java fern and swords.  Historically, I have been having a crazy amount of difficulties in this tank with my java fern, chiefly with the ever-slowly creeping of yellow to eventual brown leaves that die off.  It is a very slow process and though all the plants are all still alive, it is clear they are not growing/thriving.  My swords are also having some mild to moderate difficulties with yellowing leaves that eventually die off as well.  Photos all below.  First off, parameters:

Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20-40
pH: roughly 7.2
dKH: 4.5
dGH: 6.7

In terms of fertilization, I used to follow the EZ green directions of 2 pumps once weekly (low light, 20g tank), however once I saw the yellow/brown leaves, increased to twice a week, and eventually now, three times weekly.  When that didn't do the trick, I figured it was a possible potassium deficiency specifically due to the appearance of the plants, so I started to supplement with SeaChem potassium, 2ml every other day, which I still do now.  I put down root tabs as needed for my swords and crypts, however the swords still seem to have yellowing leaves even after putting down new tabs.  The crypts seem very happy and are flourishing nicely.  My substrate is a mix of roughly 70% Controsoil and 30% gravel.  For time reference, I've been battling this for probably 2 months now.  After taking a deeper look at all the leaves, I noticed small pinholes in the leaves of my rosette swords this morning, which leads me to think I've also got a manganese deficiency.

Of note, this tank is only lightly stocked with bladder snails, ramshorn snails, and roughly 20 or so cherry shrimp.  I've been planning to stock more shrimp but the Texas heat has made me hesitant to mail order just yet.  I'm not sure if the lack of animal life could be contributing to this?  I don't THINK so due to the presence of nitrate, but then again, I'm a dummy so...

What do you guys think?  I'm kind of at a loss because I FEEL like I have been diligent about fertilizing, but nothing seems to be helping.  My other two planted tanks are all growing nicely so I just find it very odd to be seeing signs of possible multiple nutrient deficiencies in this one tank alone, especially after all the dosing I've been doing.  If you guys agree with my diagnoses, are there any other supplements you guys recommend, especially manganese?

Thanks so much in advance all.

Martin

EDIT:  Forgot to include lighting habits.  Because my HOB actually hangs on the side, I run two parallel 14W lights that run across the short side of the aquarium.  I run them for 8 hours a day at 30% intensity.  Admittedly, I never really quite got the hang of understanding wattage vs. time vs. plant needs and always just fumbled my way through this aspect.  All I know is this tank has absolutely ZERO problems with algae growth.  It is by far my clearest tank.  Not sure if the key is in lighting...

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Martin

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Plant experts? @Seattle_Aquarist? @Mmiller2001?

[Miranda Marie]

I wish I could help, but the only plants I don't struggle to keep alive myself are rooted plants, and even then, my own swords took 3 and a half *years* to get any bigger after the initial die back and regrowth appeared. They were tiny for so long, I honestly stopped expecting them to do anything. Then all of a sudden they took off and are now huge and I still am not sure why LOL. I've tried so many plants that ultimately never grew, including "bullet proof" plants like Vallisneria and pogostemon stellatus octopus. 

TL;DR: I feel your pain and also struggle with plants/fertilizer. You have my sympathy. 💙

[Mmiller2001]

Go to 8 pumps weekly and do 50% weekly water changes. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Martin,

You didn't say how long your tank has been set up but some of those leaves on the java ferns ( Leptochilus pteropus) look like emerged growth rather than leaves that were grown submerged.  Also I am seeing very little algae accumulation on the hardscape which leads me to believe this thank is relatively new.  When did you set up your tank and add the plants? -Roy

[Martin]

Thanks guys!

@Mmiller2001 Can you help me understand your thought process behind the 50% PWC?  Just trying to learn from the situation!  I owe you a consultation fee for always chiming in on my plethora of problems buddy!

@Seattle_Aquarist Thanks Roy, the tank has been up and running somewhere between 3 to 4 months now.  All the plants shown have been in there since that time apart from the two rosette swords on the far left.  You are correct, it is practically spotless from an algae standpoint.  I thought that was a good sign of balance.  Am I thinking about it wrong?

I don't know if it matters, but the tank originally had about 6x anubias plants spread across two or three species.  Literally all of them got hit by anubias rot within the first few weeks except for one, though it doesn't look hot either.

@Miranda Marie Hang in there!  I assure you more of us go through the same problems!  Some of my plants do great, others I can't keep alive for the life of me even though I follow directions for care.  

Edited October 8, 2023 by Martin

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:28 PM, Martin said:

Thanks Roy, the tank has been up and running somewhere between 3 to 4 months now.  All the plants shown have been in there since that time apart from the two rosette swords on the far left.  You are correct, it is practically spotless from an algae standpoint.  I thought that was a good sign of balance.  Am I thinking about it wrong?

I don't know if it matters, but the tank originally had about 6x anubias plants spread across two or three species.  Literally all of them got hit by anubias rot within the first few weeks except for one, though it doesn't look hot either.

Hi @Martin

For the most part those leaves on the java ferns are the original leaves that were on there when you put them in the tank, is that correct? -Roy

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/7/2023 at 7:28 PM, Martin said:

@Mmiller2001 Can you help me understand your thought process behind the 50% PWC?  Just trying to learn from the situation!  I owe you a consultation fee for always chiming in on my plethora of problems buddy!

Certainly, because you can never have more than 2 times the nutrients dosed when doing 50% water changes. Here is Easy Green dosing information. Remember your tank is 20 gallons but actually a bit less. 

This is 1 pump per 10 gallons, so 2 pumps in your tank gives the above (but just a bit more because you don't truly have 20 gallons). If you want to easily target numbers, you can either front load nutrients or target an accumulation total. The way to target an accumulation total is to remember that with 50% water changes you can't exceed twice the dose. If you dosed 8 pumps, or 12 ppm NO3 (as proxy) you will have twice the dosed numbers around the 11 week marker. So by telling you to dose 8 pumps, or in numbers language I'm saying dose 12ppm NO3, .6ppm PO4 (way too low btw), 8ppm K (also too low) then in 11 weeks or so, the accumulation total would be 24ppm NO3, 1.2 ppm PO4, and 16ppm K. Your plants are dying because they do not have enough food. So by increasing the pumps, and doing the 50% changes, you can now better understand the nutrient information in the tank. The cold harsh reality is that EG is antiquated and needs to be revised because EG philosophy no longer makes sense. PO4 is way too low and K needs to be higher than NO3 or near NO3.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Mmiller2001
I will add, and this is from my own experience, that melt is an entire whitening of the a plant and it eventualy dissolves into nothing. I do not see this happening in your plants and is a clear sign of deficiency.

[Martin]

@Seattle_Aquarist I haven't seen hardly any growth in any of the plants in the tank apart from the crypts, so yes, I believe the leaves we see are almost certainly all original leaves when they arrived.  None of them went through any noticeable melt when I placed them into the tank.  And to be clear, none of the rhizome plants are buried.

@Mmiller2001 Lol, I have a Master's degree and practice medicine and you lost me!  Not sure I understand your statement about "you can never have more than 2 times the nutrients dosed when doing 50% water changes".  I would think the statement would be "you would halve the dosed nutrients in the tank" with each PWC since you are removing half the volume (assuming an even distribution of the nutrients within the column).  If you wanted to increase the concentration of nutrients in the water, wouldn't you do smaller changes (or even none if your tank can sustain it) so to let the nutrients build over time with each subsequent dosing?  I know you are right, I'm just trying to follow the science behind it.  Given that this appears to be deficiency, should I continue to supplement with my SeaChem potassium?  I've been dosing 2ml pretty much 3x weekly (every other day each week).  And I believe both of you are correct, this is definitely not melt.

I think part of my difficulty is not understanding nutritional needs of the plants.  Vast majority of ferts out there follow the "put X in Y times" and viola!  However we all know from our own human physiology that feeding a 10 year old and a 200+ pound adult the same exact meal do not yield healthy results one way or another.  It's this reason that leads me to "trust and follow directions" rather than really understanding how to care for the plants.  Having had algae problems in the past, I'm thinking "Okay, if I think I have a potassium deficiency, why would I dose a broad spectrum, all-in-one fertilizer and risk algal problems down the line rather than just fine tuning potassium?"  I'm not sure my thinking is correct.  You've already confirmed some of my own fears when you noted how some of the nutrients are too low in concentration because I've looked at the EZ Green label many times and have said to myself, "Uhhhh... is that a lot?  Uhhhhhhhhh... is that one enough?"  I do the same thing when considering my lighting times and intensity, but I could go on and on.  

EDIT:  Oh, to be clear @Mmiller2001, I know you said 8 pumps and a 50% PWC weekly.  Would I do a 50% PWC then follow with 8 pumps at once?  Or would you continue just doing 2 pumps spread over the week, THEN a PWC at the end of the week?  I'm of course assuming you wouldn't PWC right after dosing the column as that would just be a waste of ferts.  I promise I'm not this stupid in other areas of my life...

Edited October 8, 2023 by Martin

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/7/2023 at 8:21 AM, Martin said:

When that didn't do the trick, I figured it was a possible potassium deficiency specifically due to the appearance of the plants, so I started to supplement with SeaChem potassium, 2ml every other day, which I still do now. 

Your GH is slightly low, just in relation to your KH.  You mentioned potassium, but I would actually recommend using equilibrium as opposed to the liquid potassium.

Equilibrium™ is a supplement designed to create or build general hardness (GH) due to its mineral content (calcium, magnesium, potassium, etc.)

If you're seeing something missing or that the plants are using in abundance out of your portion of GH, then that would go ahead and give you a method to replenish it.  Apart from that, please verify the rhizome is buried and then just keep an eye on light and surface movement.  Ferns need time, much like anubias to just do their thing.  It's a very, very shallow tank and you really shouldn't need a ton of light for them.

Apart from the advice mentioned above, that is where I would personally start based on my experience.

Edit: I just noticed the lights on the top.  Because you have them in that situation with the low demand plants right in the middle, you can slightly push them outward.  The one on the right looks fine, but I would shift the one on the left just a little bit to the left, maybe 1-1.5" or so.  It's very minimal, but that might be just enough to balance the light on the ferns (if you ever see algae being an issue).  You can likely adjust the lights up once you have nutrients balanced as well.


For me:
Step 1: plant/light placement
Step 2: nutrient balance / substrate needs
Step 3: Co2+circulation
Step 4: balance of everything
Step 5: keep it clean.
 

On 10/7/2023 at 9:58 PM, Martin said:

EDIT:  Oh, to be clear @Mmiller2001, I know you said 8 pumps and a 50% PWC weekly.  Would I do a 50% PWC then follow with 8 pumps at once?  Or would you continue just doing 2 pumps spread over the week, THEN a PWC at the end of the week?  I'm of course assuming you wouldn't PWC right after dosing the column as that would just be a waste of ferts.  I promise I'm not this stupid in other areas of my life...

You would do your water change first, then dose the ferts either right away or in the morning following.  You can split the dose if you want.  4 pumps 2x a week or 8 pumps 1x a week. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:58 PM, Martin said:

Not sure I understand your statement about "you can never have more than 2 times the nutrients dosed when doing 50% water changes".

Assume a no plant no fish 10 gallon aquarium where I want to target 20ppm.

week 1, dosed 10ppm of any fertilizer

10ppm/50% water change=5ppm

week 2, dosed 10ppm=15ppm/50% water change=7.5ppm

week 3, 7.5ppm dosed 10=17.5ppm/50% water change=8.75ppm

week 3, 8.75ppm+10ppm=18.75/50% change=9.375PPM

so on and so forth and weeks later you will approach 20 at weeks end where the resulting 50% water change leaves 10 and you would dose 10 targeting 20ppm

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:58 PM, Martin said:

I think part of my difficulty is not understanding nutritional needs of the plants.  Vast majority of ferts out there follow the "put X in Y times" and viola!  However we all know from our own human physiology that feeding a 10 year old and a 200+ pound adult the same exact meal do not yield healthy results one way or another.  It's this reason that leads me to "trust and follow directions" rather than really understanding how to care for the plants.  Having had algae problems in the past, I'm thinking "Okay, if I think I have a potassium deficiency, why would I dose a broad spectrum, all-in-one fertilizer and risk algal problems down the line rather than just fine tuning potassium?"  I'm not sure my thinking is correct.  You've already confirmed some of my own fears when you noted how some of the nutrients are too low in concentration because I've looked at the EZ Green label many times and have said to myself, "Uhhhh... is that a lot?  Uhhhhhhhhh... is that one enough?"  I do the same thing when considering my lighting times and intensity, but I could go on and on.  

 

On 10/7/2023 at 10:58 PM, Martin said:

I think part of my difficulty is not understanding nutritional needs of the plants. 

Don't we all! The good thing is Tom Barr developed a system where we no longer have to worry about individual nutrients or how much to use. His research developed the Estimative Index system and he worked all this out for us. The EI system is mostly used in CO2 tanks, but he states just reducing the the recommended dose down to a quarter or third (higher or lower as needed) works well for non CO2 tanks. He also states, and this is one thing many have a hard time grasping; fertilizer does not cause algae. All of this is a good read if interested, just google Tom Barr Estimative Index dosing.

The underlying problem with "all in one" fertilizer is the ratio/ or amounts in the bottle. I just use the highest concentration as a proxy. In EG, NO3 is the highest so I based the pumps used off that number which could leave you lower else where. I would continue using the Seachem Potassium. Potassium can be dosed to a very high number without problems. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:58 PM, Martin said:

Would I do a 50% PWC then follow with 8 pumps at once?  Or would you continue just doing 2 pumps spread over the week, THEN a PWC at the end of the week?

That's completely up to you. I throw in all my Macro nutrients while filling up the tank. I then dose my Micro nutrients throughout the week. If you break the pumps out over the week, this could offer you a bit of freedom if you see a problem or discover you don't need to use 8 pumps.

[Martin]

Thank you so much guys (or gals)!

@Mmiller2001, as always, thank you for taking the time to explain everything.  I stayed up after my post trying to work out the math behind your statement and finally ran into the scenario you explained above.  With 50% PWC, you eventually hit a cap since you are always taking out half and only replenishing by a static amount.  I guess my only issue with the method is that I would need to know what my target concentrations are, which I don't, which I'm guessing the logic behind the approach is "keep going up till they don't die".  So if 8 pumps doesn't work, increase to 10 next and so on.  I'm really surprised by the "ferts don't cause algae" thing as I always understood algal problems to be an imbalance between light, food, and CO2.  That's valuable information as that is what has kept me very cautious (one VERY nasty BBA situation in the past).  I will certainly give Tom Barr a search/read.  Last question:  If you are trying to build up nutrients, why PWC so much?  Wouldn't changing less and/or less often do a better job?

@nabokovfan87 thanks to you as well as my other "regular consultant" lol.  I have some Equilibrium but haven't used it in a long time as I have been trying to basically keep maintenance simple and not "chase numbers" so to speak.  When starting off, the parameters really threw me off because our area is known for crazy hard water... mineral stains on EVERYTHING.  Then I did tests for my first tank and I scratched my head at the findings.  

@Pepere thanks for your help, it looks like you take a similar approach to our fellow hobbyists above.  Part of my problem is that I have gotten skittish when having to deviate from the directions on the bottles by large amounts.  When EZ Green says 2 pumps per week and I'm starting to does way above that, I start to think something is wrong with how I'm approaching the problem.

You guys are awesome!

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/8/2023 at 7:23 AM, Martin said:

Last question:  If you are trying to build up nutrients, why PWC so much?  Wouldn't changing less and/or less often do a better job?

Unfortunately, plants don't use/ consume everything produced in the tank. These organics need to be removed from the tank as they definitely cause algae. Water changes takes care of this easily. The 50% water change is a good amount and it makes targeting nutrients easier. You can certainly do less, just adjust dosing down to compensate. Water changes also replenish nutrients (GH,KH, traces if using tap water). 

One thing is also true, we all have different goals, but if you look at the best planted tanks in the world (competition tanks); they all have a common denominator....huge frequent water changes.

[Martin]

Thanks again for all the education.  I'll report back in a few weeks!

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/8/2023 at 12:49 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

please verify the rhizome is buried

Just double checking....?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:58 PM, Martin said:

I haven't seen hardly any growth in any of the plants in the tank apart from the crypts, so yes, I believe the leaves we see are almost certainly all original leaves when they arrived.  None of them went through any noticeable melt when I placed them into the tank.  And to be clear, none of the rhizome plants are buried.

Hi @Martin,

If your primary concern is the java ferns leaves then you can stop worrying, eventually all of the leaves that were original to the plant will die off and new leaves will grow to replace them.  Why?  Because almost 100% of the java ferns grown today are grown emerged (in air) not in water which allows the growers to grow and sell plants faster.  When plants are grown in air, as opposed to submerged, the leaves of the emerged plant leaves develop a thick cuticle layer to protect the leaves/plant from excessive transpiration (water loss through the leaves).  Unfortunately the thick cuticle layer inhibits the transfer of nutrients and the exchange of gasses when the emerged grown leaves are submerged in water.

When the emerged grown java ferns are submerged the plant will slowly start to re-absorb the nutrients of the emerged grown leaves and use those nutrients to grow nw submerged leaves with little to no cuticle layer.  Yes the old emerged grown leaves are unsightly as they die but leave them in place until the old are almost fully brown before cutting them off so the nutrients they contain can be used for new growth.  Also during this period some of those nutrients that are being re-absorbed are going to produce new roots which help the rhizome attach naturally to the hardscape.

As for the issues with the sword plant leaves I cannot tell if those are leave original to the plant or leaves that have grown since the plants were but into the tank.  If those leaves are original then since sword plants are also grown emersed the same thing that is happening to the java ferns is happening with the sword plants with the the leaves yellowing (chlorosis) and then dieing (necrosis) starting at the tips and progressing toward the stems .  If those sword plant leaves are new since being put into your tank then it may be a nutrient issue.  The holes in the leaves appear to due to physical damage due to their irregular shape and the fact the holes seem to effect both newer and older leaves alike.  If it was a potassium related issue newer leaves would not be effected.  Hope this helps! -Roy

[Martin]

Thank you guys!

@nabokovfan87, all rhizome plants are tied to hardscape and unburied.  I read somewhere that rhizomes need light, but I never really understood that as most of these plants have a TON of leaves that block out vast majority of the light anyway, but whatever.

@Seattle_Aquarist, thank you for that education!  The plants originally came from BucePlant, not sure if they were grown emersed or immersed.  I had assumed immersed since I observed practically zero melt on any of the plants and it has been several months.  Even the crypts didn't melt, which I was really, really surprised by.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/8/2023 at 8:45 AM, Martin said:

@nabokovfan87, all rhizome plants are tied to hardscape and unburied.  I read somewhere that rhizomes need light, but I never really understood that as most of these plants have a TON of leaves that block out vast majority of the light anyway, but whatever.

I've heard it as they need circulation and can't be "choked off".  You can absolutely bury the roots, but it's like a lot of terrestrial plants where the crown/rhizome needs certain things just to stay sound.

 

 

On 10/8/2023 at 8:22 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

As for the issues with the sword plant leaves I cannot tell if those are leave original to the plant or leaves that have grown since the plants were but into the tank.  If those leaves are original then since sword plants are also grown emersed the same thing that is happening to the java ferns is happening with the sword plants with the the leaves yellowing (chlorosis) and then dieing (necrosis) starting at the tips and progressing toward the stems .  If those sword plant leaves are new since being put into your tank then it may be a nutrient issue.  The holes in the leaves appear to due to physical damage due to their irregular shape and the fact the holes seem to effect both newer and older leaves alike.  If it was a potassium related issue newer leaves would not be effected.  Hope this helps! -Roy

Would you recommend trimming off the damaged/highly damaged leaves right now or just let the plants do their thing?

[Martin]

Hey @Mmiller2001 forgot to ask, how long do you usually wait after increasing your ferts dosing before determining if you need to increase?

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:33 AM, Martin said:

Hey @Mmiller2001 forgot to ask, how long do you usually wait after increasing your ferts dosing before determining if you need to increase?

I watch new growth. If it looks good and the lower leaves aren’t being depleted then they have enough. If new growth looks good but lower leaves looked like the plant is pulling nutrients, I go a bit more. 

[Supermassive]

@Mmiller2001 Would you recommend getting a PO4 and K supplement if I just use EG and easy root tabs for fertilizer? I'm pretty sure one of my plants has a phosphate deficiency so I've been dosing a couple drops of EG every day in my 10G tank along with the usual weekly amount.

[Mmiller2001]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:14 AM, Supermassive said:

@Mmiller2001 Would you recommend getting a PO4 and K supplement if I just use EG and easy root tabs for fertilizer? I'm pretty sure one of my plants has a phosphate deficiency so I've been dosing a couple drops of EG every day in my 10G tank along with the usual weekly amount.

You can definitely do so. I would use up what you have and eventually make a switch to a product more balanced towards numbers that make a bit more sense. There’s a few good premixed solutions out there which are better balanced.

I also see no reason to use root tabs. They just aren’t necessary for the majority of plants. There are certainly very demanding plants that could do better with them, but they are already challenging plants that few have great success with. Water column dosing is all that’s needed. 

Here is my tank a month ago with just Ace Hardware pool filter sand and column dosing only.

[Supermassive]

@Mmiller2001 Wow, such an incredible tank. I've seen it before but I didn't realize it was inert substrate and no root tabs. I didn't know you really only need nutrients in the water column. That is very useful information. Thank you. 

What are some fertilizers you like that are more balanced?