Friday musings - I am not happy about my tank

[beastie]

This morning I was looking at my Asian river tank and I am not feeling the happiness I wanted from it. I would love to have a discussion about it and maybe find a way to make it better.

Let me introduce the tank. 110 cm x 40 cm x 45 cm but filled with stones, so it is closer to 130 liters than the 150l. It has no heater, so most of the year it is around 20°C, due to summer spikes for 4 weeks in the past three months, it was sitting at 25°C but is back at 21 now. It has high flow aimed at the surface to help with oxygenation, but no air stone. I put it together last October, so it is not even running a year but close. It has low light (just a 60cm led light above the 110cm tank) and thus I went low plants. Java moss, Java fern, some bucephalandras. On the right side I already tried hornwort, didnt do well, now for the past 6 months I tried Dwarf Hygrophila but it is doing abysmal, it barely grew. Planned inhabitants that I managed to stick with are Golden white cloud minnows (23x), Sewellia linoleata (3x) and panda garra (4x). I played around with a paradise fish for two three months, but it has gotten too agressive and the behavior didnt match the tank, so I gifted it away. There is a purple mystery snail that is not liking the pH (which is around 7) but is fun to watch and I am trying to help it with cuttlebone and repashy.

My initial idea was, that the white clouds would breed in this tank, but that is not happening. Be it due to high flow, predation or too little food for the fry in the flow, who knows. I managed to breed them in another tank and will continue to do so, but it is a bit of a disappointment, as I expected the massive moss beds would help rear some fry. I also started with 5 sewellia in February, lost two in June, bought two more, lost two more. I doubt I will be buying more, as they obviously do not like the tank. I was hoping for some breeding, from my other post we agreed at least one is a female but alas, nothing. The tank is filled with hidey holes, caves and moss, so I again expected to have a chance at babies, but so far nothing. The best fish in this tank are the garras, they are amazing, they grew and colored nicely, they are always active, they will stick to your hand if you put it in. I am almost tempted to get 4 more to increase their shoal.

What bothers me most is the right side of the tank. The plants are ugly and the most lighted side of the tank is the worst. On the other hand I have never in my life had such a nice moss. All the times before it would be algae filled, here I started with a fist size moss in October, now it is spaning at least 40% of the tank, is almost reaching the surface, is lush and green and oh my.

 

Options I am considering now - remaking the right side, getting rid of the hygrophila, replacing it with something else, maybe even getting rid of the small stones there, making it more sand like, dividing it, doing something there.

I am also considering getting other fish. on one hand I could wait more and maybe will have a chance to breed the sewellia, which will most likely not happen if I get more fish. I dont think I want more fish for the water column, though my minnows are fat, their colors are amazing ,their behavior is nice and I dont think second shoal of fish would work. I previously considered getting school of normal colored minnows, that might be fun but I am not sure. I could try the borneo loaches instad of the linoleata I have and maybe have better luck with them. Or I was contemplating some type of loach, especially if I make some sandy hidey holes for them. Or maybe I could give some goby a try. I do not like large fish and I dont think they would work here anyway.

 

I am open to suggestions. Thank you!

[beastie]

Looking at the tank (because who wants to work right), I speculated I could - remove all the stones including the fake cave from the right side. Replace some of the smaller stones and pebbles from the middle and put the fake cave in to look somehow natural. Maybe purchase some tubes or will see, I want to avoid branches, and move the moss from the front of the central part of the tank to the right side, maybe not on the ground but attached to the possible branch or the caves.

I also read about two species that may work for me, ofcourse I assume they will be unattainable - Inle Loach or Black-Lined Loach

[Odd Duck]

I think nearly any stem plants are doomed to failure in a low light situation.  They’re always going to end up looking scraggly and sad.  Maybe try some needle leaf Java fern in those locations since it can grow taller and look grassy as a counterpoint texture to your moss?  You could also try some Anubias of various sizes and textures.  I think moving the moss might be a good idea, even having a clump of it at each end?  Put some Anubias in the middle, perhaps?  Maybe explore other moss textures like Hookeraceae or Distichophyllum ‘Maiberae’ which both have a much more “stemmy” look than most mosses.  Camaroon moss or giant willow moss would also be a very different texture but should do well in a tank that grows mosses well.

Adding other loaches besides hillstream type will almost guarantee no survival of any fry.  How long has the paradise fish been out of the tank?  Have you been able to do cool water changes since then to try to trigger spawning?

[MattyM]

I wonder if plants are sensitive to temperature - 20C/68F might be too cold for some plants, and they also might not like temp swings. 

An idea - maybe try building up the stones on one side, so there's a slope from one side of the tank to another - maybe they can slope down into a sandy area. Perhaps that will inspire some different plant types and placement. 

[Flipper]

@beastie  What type of moss is that?  It's beautiful.  I like @MattyM 's idea of the rock slope.  I'm setting up a new tank right now.  Only have course sand, slate and seiryu stone as of today.  Still working on the arrangement before I get plants.  I have never had a cooler water tank.  I still need to get right side taller, maybe with driftwood.

[beastie]

On 9/1/2023 at 4:31 PM, Odd Duck said:

How long has the paradise fish been out of the tank?  Have you been able to do cool water changes since then to try to trigger spawning?

Since beginning of June. I bought the only sewell is female two weeks after though. I always do a cold water change, i can't do any other :))

 

 

i like the idea of replacing the moss with another. This is plain java moss that i have. I removed the hygrophila, some stones and moved the front moss to the right . There is a theoretical slope, larger stones on left, up to no stones on the right. Just may not be so visible 🙂

i will consider adding normally colored minnows and maybe the panda garra. Or maybe wait for them a bit 🙂 will do a new picture if I can 🙂

[beastie]

Result for now

[beastie]

On 9/1/2023 at 4:31 PM, Odd Duck said:

You could also try some Anubias

The reason why I very much don't want that is that out of six tanks i have anubis's is part or center piece of five. 

Luminatus tank, amazonian...

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/1/2023 at 2:35 PM, beastie said:

Result for now

The first thing that jumped out to me in the scape is how one small change would dramatically shift the look for you (for the better) and then you can see what you have with everything else. 

I want to share something with you, specifically for the conversation as well as the style of the tank in question.  It's a plant that was blended with the ferns and the color dynamics are really interesting.  Something like moss has such a unique look, but I think the ONE THING I would love to do first on your tank is take all of that moss, tie it to some quilting mesh, and attach that to the back wall. 

Here is a video by George.  It's just one of those things, grab some tea and hear the story and his thoughts.  It's a cool moment and not something many hobbyists tend to share.  Congratulations for posting the thread.  I have one tank in my own as well I just am not satisfied with right now.
 

 

[Odd Duck]

On 9/1/2023 at 4:35 PM, beastie said:

Result for now

That’s already more interesting!  Such simple changes and it makes a world of difference.  The moss clumps both centered looked very static even though the rocks were more on one end.  This looks more dynamic because it isn’t as “balanced”.  The rock pile is more visible and catches your eye more.  You could grow something else, maybe a crypt or tall Java ferns, instead of Anubias, to give more height and visual weight to the far left, and give it an even more dynamic, more fluid appearance.  When a composition is more heavily visually weighted towards one end, it becomes more fluid appearing because the eye almost expects it to “flow” toward the less “full” side.  So that careful imbalance looks dynamic and more interesting in comparison to very balanced, equally weighted ends.

That was a very good step in a nice direction!

[beastie]

Last change for now

 

[nabokovfan87]

It looks good @beastie!

I see what you mean about the "rubble" on the sand and not being able to see the open space as much.  I had to remind myself it's not my tank with a little horde of corydoras in there having some fun wiggling around. 

It'll be interesting to see how things develop for you and what you decide to tweak and play around with, if anything. 

Hopefully you're enjoying the tank a little bit more though?

....I love the photo of your hillstream loach, it's a really nice one.

[beastie]

It is way better. Sadly the hillstream is my last and i won't be getting more. I had five, then three, bought two more, had three again and suddenly since last week i only see this one. I took apart the moss and saw under it, no corpses.

No idea what happened but i doubt i will buy more. They don't like the tank.

I bumped up the garras to seven and minnows to thirty. If I manage to breed the minnows this tank will be perfect.

[beastie]

I will how ever consider a group of an asian stone catfish 🙂 butbut only if this sewellia doesn't make it

[Lennie]

@Guppysnail would anchor catfish be okay with such community setup and find food? 

[Guppysnail]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:09 AM, Lennie said:

@Guppysnail would anchor catfish be okay with such community setup and find food? 

Yes they will be fine in that setup. Some things I would think about though Sewellia and anchors require some similar things to thrive. If the Sewellia are not faring well it’s a possibility neither will the anchor cats. 
 

The other thing to know is though I love my anchor cats a sighting of them is maybe once a week when lights are on. That usually means I spot them in moss or dense vegetation. 
I view them mostly after lights out just as the sun is going away for the day and the room is very dim. My opinion of them is specialty interest. Not a fish that will enhance a tanks viewing pleasure. I see my Sewellia all the time in the tank with the anchor cats. 

[Odd Duck]

There you go!  That should develop quite nicely!

[PineSong]

Thanks for sharing the tank and your thinking process. I'm another fan of the moss and simple fish like the minnows, looking for inspiration to make changes to my 20g long...

 

[beastie]

On 9/8/2023 at 4:17 PM, Guppysnail said:

Sewellia and anchors require some similar things to thrive. If the Sewellia are not faring well it’s a possibility neither will the anchor cats. 

True, i will have to figure out what they don't like first. I assumed the algae, the feeding, the company would suit them, i tried to tailor th tank to them. Even temp is usually matching and i started feeding algae more.

Maybe they didn't like the bloodworms feedings. Who knows 

[Guppysnail]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:22 AM, beastie said:

True, i will have to figure out what they don't like first. I assumed the algae, the feeding, the company would suit them, i tried to tailor th tank to them. Even temp is usually matching and i started feeding algae more.

Maybe they didn't like the bloodworms feedings. Who knows 

Anchor cats are easier to feed if there are no tank mates. They don’t eat for me until lights out so you may need to feed just before you go lights out. I forget what temp your st mine thrived at 72-74. 

[beastie]

On 9/8/2023 at 4:17 PM, Guppysnail said:

 

Spring autumn before heating season my tank is 19, winter is 20-21, and summer is 21 up to 25C

[Guppysnail]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:54 AM, beastie said:

Spring autumn before heating season my tank is 19, winter is 20-21, and summer is 21 up to 25C

It’s more about high dissolved oxygen for anchors and hillstream than temps. The low temps are to keep the DO high. An extra airstone fixes that for higher temps. 

[beastie]

I am back with this tank and another advice request. The tank is still simply missing something. It has so many hidey holes, all the back is covered with the moss, the caves, the nooks, the crannies and noone uses them.

Sure the panda garra will flow out of the rocks sometimes, but they hang out on the glass or around, looking for food. On friday I lost my mystery snail, not sure why, either it didnt like the temp drop or it was not having fun in all the rocks.

I dont think I have capacity for another fish, I have 30 adult minnows, 4 fry from previous rearing and now will be moving 9 fry from recent hatch. I have also 7 panda garra and the last sewellia.

I dont know what this tank needs, maybe some crayfish, some shrimp, something. Any recommendation? Maybe I am not seeing something

The tank is at 21 degrees now

[nabokovfan87]

@beastie Can you show us the tank shot?

On 10/16/2023 at 12:39 AM, beastie said:

I dont think I have capacity for another fish, I have 30 adult minnows, 4 fry from previous rearing and now will be moving 9 fry from recent hatch. I have also 7 panda garra and the last sewellia.

I dont know what this tank needs, maybe some crayfish, some shrimp, something. Any recommendation? Maybe I am not seeing something

My gut tells me corydoras and sell some of the panda garra off.  Adding more of the hillstreams would be fun too, but I understand that's out of the picture.  Maybe corydoras hastatus works for you?

Edited October 16, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[beastie]

It is not so different since the last picture I posted above but here you go, I snapped a new picture. You can notice the garra at their favorite spot. I feed from the right corner 🙂 Sorry about the glare, during the day most of my tanks are not picture ready.

 

The tank is not suited for corydoras. If I wanted something that requires sand, I would reduce the stones and go with kuhli loaches or some other type of small loach. Alas I dont think it is a good idea now with the garras and I am not getting rid of them, I bought more recently. They are the best fish ever. I have a group of other corydoras, sterbai, in my other tank, and compared to garra they are boring. Sitting whole day and hiding whenever I am around. Garras are like 'yay, human', 'yay humans hand, lets all sit on it'.

I like the design so far, but the stones decrease the water volume and if noone is going to be using them, it is almost worth remaking the whole layout and leaving just the stones o the left and maybe something smaller in the middle, but the the whole right side would be empty...

Edited October 16, 2023 by beastie