Looking for help with Shrimp Colony

[nabokovfan87]

Hey everyone,

I am working on trying to better understand cherry shrimp (neocaridina davidi) care and I am looking for someone to work on a project with. 

What I am looking for is someone who has the space and ability to setup a shrimp tank and follow the same basic regiment I use on my tank.  The goal here is to really understand what works for the species in question, why it works, and to try to better verify what the species truly need.  Ultimately, I want to be able to advise someone accurately and effectively in the care of the species and I just don't have the space to really keep enough colonies.

If someone has room for a 20L tank somewhere and has all the supplies needed for a shrimp colony maybe there is a way we can work together on this and learn together.  I'm hoping there is someone with an established colony with a known method of care that we can utilize to compare and contrast my own methods with.  From the established colony, selecting 10-20 shrimp and using them to start up a new colony with the altered methods.

I am in the process of doing this myself and just waiting on a new filter, but that will be a matter of time.  Fish are going through meds and what not, slightly delayed things for the tank I was planning to utilize.

If you're interested please feel free to post below or send me a DM and we can talk in further detail about everything.

note: I want to make it very clear that I am not intending in any way to do anything that is unsafe for the shrimp and I would not encourage such a behavior.  I don't want it to appear or seem like my own care practices have caused issues for my shrimp.  In my own colony I lost shrimp due to the normal reasons and no losses that I can isolate to my care methods.  I lost 1-2 shrimp from shipping and acclimation to my water.  I lost 5-6 due to a pretty severe GH crash from my water changing at the tap.  I've lost 4-6 shrimp due to Scutariella Japonica treatments as well.  I believe all of this is pretty common and not due to normal maintenance methods of the tank in question.  Overall my colony is seemingly doing very well and the idea is to care for the shrimp with certain items as well as to treat the tank like a community tank setup.  Essentially, similar to how amano shrimp are cared for.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:40 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Hey everyone,

I am working on trying to better understand cherry shrimp (neocaridina davidi) care and I am looking for someone to work on a project with. 

What I am looking for is someone who has the space and ability to setup a shrimp tank and follow the same basic regiment I use on my tank.  The goal here is to really understand what works for the species in question, why it works, and to try to better verify what the species truly need.  Ultimately, I want to be able to advise someone accurately and effectively in the care of the species and I just don't have the space to really keep enough colonies.

If someone has room for a 20L tank somewhere and has all the supplies needed for a shrimp colony maybe there is a way we can work together on this and learn together.  I'm hoping there is someone with an established colony with a known method of care that we can utilize to compare and contrast my own methods with.  From the established colony, selecting 10-20 shrimp and using them to start up a new colony with the altered methods.

I am in the process of doing this myself and just waiting on a new filter, but that will be a matter of time.  Fish are going through meds and what not, slightly delayed things for the tank I was planning to utilize.

If you're interested please feel free to post below or send me a DM and we can talk in further detail about everything.

note: I want to make it very clear that I am not intending in any way to do anything that is unsafe for the shrimp and I would not encourage such a behavior.  I don't want it to appear or seem like my own care practices have caused issues for my shrimp.  In my own colony I lost shrimp due to the normal reasons and no losses that I can isolate to my care methods.  I lost 1-2 shrimp from shipping and acclimation to my water.  I lost 5-6 due to a pretty severe GH crash from my water changing at the tap.  I've lost 4-6 shrimp due to Scutariella Japonica treatments as well.  I believe all of this is pretty common and not due to normal maintenance methods of the tank in question.  Overall my colony is seemingly doing very well and the idea is to care for the shrimp with certain items as well as to treat the tank like a community tank setup.  Essentially, similar to how amano shrimp are cared for.

Would this be an RO experiment, since everyone has different water?

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/17/2023 at 10:45 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Would this be an RO experiment, since everyone has different water?

Yeah, that's one thing I can't really control.  My water is "fine" so to speak for shrimp, but I do have to use buffers slightly.  Ultimately the goal is to avoid using RO systems though if at all possible.

I believe for Caridina is strongly recommended to use an RO/DI system, but for Neo shrimp there is a bit more leeway.

[Maximus]

This sounds interesting, but my colony of neo. is still pretty new (just finished hatching the first spawn this week). My water is very soft so I have to use buffers. What's your regiment?

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:37 PM, Maximus said:

This sounds interesting, but my colony of neo. is still pretty new (just finished hatching the first spawn this week). My water is very soft so I have to use buffers. What's your regiment?

What kind do you have?  What are your water parameters and your methods?

The goal is to basically treat the tank like any other community tank with a few modifications for shrimp specifically.  Ideally.

Tank needs:
-Sponge filter (fine is best)
-LOTS of air
-Wood (mopani is my choice)
-Some kind of rock, seiryu or dragonstone both have advantages.
-I use low demand plants, maybe some fast growing or floating.
-feeding dish
-botanicals preferred, but optional
-hides also help (i.e. dragonstone, plants, etc.)

Regiment:
-Feeding shrimp specific food, daily complete food every 2-3 days.  (at least 2x a week if you want to sub in something else during a feeding)
-Siphon the substrate as need be, preferably every time you do maintenance. This can be done weekly if you just need to.
-Water change (this is the key) is about building up a tolerance, but mostly understanding how shrimp live in the wild.  (notes below)
-Water changes, 30-50% (yes 50 can be done) every 2 weeks.  I am trying to stick to 30% every 2 weeks and the key is to monitor GH and KH over time.

Water in has to be similar to water out.  Ideally, KH = KH,  GH can vary a little bit from what I know, but I also do have evidence to the contrary.  As an example, the water in my tank was ~15 degrees as my GH has climbed on me from the SJ treatment and limited WC.  My tap has GH at much lower rate.  I did my 50% wc and the GH ended up being around 11-12 after testing. (I have the notes, just not on me right now).  For the sake of clarity, let's say GH needs to be within ~1 degree or so (maybe 2).  Meaning, If the water in the tank is at 9 degrees, you'd optimally want the water going in the tank to be 8-10 degrees.

I do not drip the water back in the tank.  I use buckets, just like you normally would for a nano community setup.  Add in the water slowly and make sure you don't crush / scare the shrimp.  My technique has been to use a sheet of 3/4-1" styrofoam that is only used on this tank.  I lay it across the surface and slowly pour the water back in via the top surface of the styrofoam.  It takes a little practice, but it's extremely easy once you get the hang of it.

Because my use of GH/KH buffers is not regular, I am only adding GH as a need be (essentially the same way you would feed in a mineral based food for the shrimp).  If the GH is below 7 then I will add in a little bit of buffer to get things back up to ~8.  KH for me is around 4 degrees, but I don't think matching KH between tanks is as critical as the long term stability of said KH.  It's very easy using a KH buffer to have the PH fly up on you because the KH skyrocketed.  That has absolutely caused some issues with my amanos and it's something I would avoid with neos entirely. 

In the case of someone who has very soft water and uses a KH/GH buffer, my method has been to add that buffer to the bucket, mix it up a few times, wait 15 minutes and mix it some more, and then go ahead and add the water in.  I don't pre-stage water because I just don't have the space or setup to do so.  Not saying it isn't advisable, but it's just not been necessary.  If you're using a hose to fill. you'd have your buffers ready to go and then just add it as the tank fills.  (this might not be possible if you are using a lot of buffers, using very small amounts it has been fine)

Please feel free to ask questions.  I am more than happy to show things in more detail if need be, photos, etc.

[Maximus]

On 8/17/2023 at 10:38 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

What kind do you have?  What are your water parameters and your methods?

I have cherry, orange, and blue velvet. The cherries are the only one with a dedicated tank right now. I'm using crushed coral and seachem equilibrium for buffers. 4-5 degrees KH and 10-12 degrees GH. GH I buffer when I do water changes, my tap water has basically 0. I put the crushed coral as the first substrate layer (not quite enough to cover it, though), and for the cherry tank (10g) I actually put a layer of bio rings over it. Not a lot logic there other than curiosity, a lack of leftover substrate, and an excess of rings.

I have some rock and driftwood, I use Indian almond leaves as well. I embrace the tannins for the most part. Some java fern and guppy grass. As well there are snails, I farm them out to tanks I have assassin snails in once they're a decent size.

This is the first spawn, but I'll be culling.

I don't do many water changes. Probably 15% changes every other week and that's only because I'm also feeding the snails and the guppy grass hasn't quite taken off yet.

 

Is there a reason you want to use a 20L? 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/20/2023 at 8:03 PM, Maximus said:

I embrace the tannins for the most part.

^^ Yep! 😁

On 8/20/2023 at 8:03 PM, Maximus said:

The cherries are the only one with a dedicated tank right now.

Are you planning to set up one for each colony or are they just also in a fish tank setup?  My apologies, I am just trying to understand the setups.

 

On 8/20/2023 at 8:03 PM, Maximus said:

I actually put a layer of bio rings over it. Not a lot logic there other than curiosity, a lack of leftover substrate, and an excess of rings.

You're not the first or the last person to do it!  They make great hides too.

 

On 8/20/2023 at 8:03 PM, Maximus said:

s there a reason you want to use a 20L? 

Essentially 20H, 20L or larger.  Dilution is a big factor here.  It can be done in something smaller, but the general methodology is to have something large enough for the colony to thrive into a good size.  A 10 would work, but eventually the colony can really outgrow that pretty quickly.  A 20, 29G, 40B, etc.  Those seem a bit more appropriate in terms of the long term health of colony.  Surface area for algae, plant health, a 20L is a good fit, but of course there's some wiggle room there.

[Maximus]

Right now the blues are with male guppies and the oranges are with female guppies. No future plans yet to move them, but that's a possibility.

 

It's probable that I'll have some combination of a 40 breeder and 20 longs, but need to calm my spending here for a bit.

[a date with nature]

Is you goal to see how colored up you can get them, how colorful you can get the colony through culling, or to produce as many as possible? sorry i'm just having a hard time understanding what your goal is here. Or are you just trying to figure out a neverfail care guide to preach to the world?

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:55 AM, a date with nature said:

Is you goal to see how colored up you can get them, how colorful you can get the colony through culling, or to produce as many as possible? sorry i'm just having a hard time understanding what your goal is here. Or are you just trying to figure out a neverfail care guide to preach to the world?

 

The goal is just to understand neos a little better.  We hear two sides....

1.  You have to keep them in a species only tank and they need RO with buffers and slow drip water changes once in a while.
2.  You can add them to a community tank.

Care in those two situations is very, very different.  I have both situations running (using tap, not RO water).  The goal is to replicate my shrimp colony, but using a different source.  My shrimp are well acclimated to my care and to my regiment.  My hypothesis is that the neocaridina shrimp especially will be more or less able to acclimate to your care methods.  Meaning that, if you dramatically change care methods it can lead to issues, but let's say you take the same line.... you care for them in different ways.  After ~6 months, then both can be thriving in very different situations and setups.  One line might be more adaptable as a result of that care than others.  Thus, you have one situation which creates a more "hardy" shrimp and one creates a more sensitive shrimp.

The ultimate measurement, just to seriously verify that the care I give my shrimp works for someone besides myself and my shrimp in my tank.  After a certain amount of time, see how many shrimp are in the colony and if it's higher or lower than expected.

[JChristophersAdventures]

@nabokovfan87 As you already know, I am very interested in all things neo-shrimp, as I am planning to have them in my community tank. There will be lots of floating plants, wood and other hides, along with HOB intake sponges. I have this idea that I will be trying, using some cholla that is just the right size to thread my HOB intake tubes through before then attaching the intake sponges right below it. That would give the shrimp a home and a meal, all right there in one spot. What do you think? Thanks.

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/3/2023 at 1:58 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

thread my HOB intake tubes through

As long as they don't end up in the filter, it'll be fine.

Not really a need to do it that way, but there's no reason it won't work well. Shrimp will like being up there right by the flow too.

[JChristophersAdventures]

@nabokovfan87 I don't think they would be any more likely than with a pre-filter sponge alone as the only way into the filter will be through the sponge. The cholla wood would simply slip over the tube first, then the sponge would be added as normal. The thing I like about it is the tube and sponge work together to hold the cholla  in place.

Edited September 3, 2023 by JChristophersAdventures

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/3/2023 at 4:37 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

The cholla wood would simply slip over the tube first, then the sponge would be added as normal

Right....  I mentioned it simply as a question about, I wonder if the fact that it's on the tube encourages them to congregate around the tube. The current prefilter I have now baby shrimp can definitely get through if they wanted to.

Stick a dragon stone near the filter, similar, but I love the idea and use of space.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

My shrimp like to use the inside of cholla log as a cave. It makes them feel secure and some go in there to molt, when they are most vulnerable. 

When I use a HOB with shrimp, I don’t trust a coarse prefilter sponge because shrimplets are so so small. They even get through the tiny holes of tank dividers and stuff. I use a rubber band to attach a small piece of pantyhose around the pfs for their safety, so they don’t get sucked in. You can kind of see that in this photo. (Carbon because I was removing meds at the time)

 

 

I have converted both of my shrimp tanks to fine sponge filters because you cannot maintain coarse ones without a risk to shrimplets, as they LOVE to live inside coarse sponge.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

@a date with nature so here's an example of what we have going on. This is an aquascaper, George Farmer, working on his tank and trying to do some maintenance. A lot of times when you see an aquascaper Doing this type of work they are adding water in as fast as they are removing it. No dripping back in for the shrimp. They aren't using buffers. It might be RO. The goal is that water in matches water out, but by removing the cloudy/dirty water from the plant maintenance and hardscspe scrubbing, that you can do so without worry that all the shrimp will die immediately.

This is one of many instances where I ask myself what's going on, why is there so much confusion and difference in technique for shrimp care. Especially neos. When I first got them I thought it would be about as easy as caring for amano shrimp.  It wasn't, and I definitely learned a lot. However, the goal is to try to understand the differences in care a bit better and to see how the shrimp handle what is a normal mode of care, but just not one associated with their care as often.

Maybe it's a breeder vs. Home hobbyist thing. Maybe it all goes back to "low maintenance" mindsets. It's very hard to know for sure. Because of all this I started with trying to understand where they come from and how they actually live in nature. "Be the shrimp" so to speak.

Second WC of the video. He also mentioned he's not using RO, has hard water.

Edited September 5, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[a date with nature]

So from my understanding your goal is to get a bunch of shrimp and understand how/why they die, are finicky, or get stressed? 

also you are trying to recreate this in a 20 long right? What kind of filtration do you have in there? What's the scape like? 

I'd imagine that one of his big keys to success is the amount of plants that he has in there, plus it looks like he has a canister filter on there as well. 

In the picture I only see three shrimp. Surely there are some hiders, but there is a big difference (I think) between having a few shrimp for decoration and having a full colony. 

I will hopefully have a new aquarium rack available for my use in the next month or so, i"ll definately be breeding shrimp in there so i could experiment with them.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/6/2023 at 10:15 AM, a date with nature said:

So from my understanding your goal is to get a bunch of shrimp and understand how/why they die, are finicky, or get stressed? 

I am trying to understand if there's a few key factors that is a trigger for them to thrive. I don't want to stress them out, I want them to actually do very well.  My shrimp are not stressed at all.

The tank I have is a 29G, I would swap it with a 20L pretty easily, but the 29G is just what I happen to have.  Filtration is sponges, x2, and I am running an airstone as a pressure relief on the pump in the middle of the tank.  Hardscape is mopani and dragonstone, epiphyte plants, sand substrate, and moss.

On 9/6/2023 at 10:15 AM, a date with nature said:

I'd imagine that one of his big keys to success is the amount of plants that he has in there, plus it looks like he has a canister filter on there as well. 

In the picture I only see three shrimp. Surely there are some hiders, but there is a big difference (I think) between having a few shrimp for decoration and having a full colony. 

Oh it's definitely a higher quality setup than what I have right now.  I was just mentioning it as an example of the information we use regularly for shrimp as opposed to what we see in real life constantly (and in nature).

George's tank very likely has few shrimp and it looks like they are adults though.

[nabokovfan87]

Another example from the day of neo shrimp having large water changes without issues.

It's a bit interesting why some are so sensitive to WCs and others are just fine being treated like a typical fish only WC.

Anecdotally, this is a one off, large water change and it is also something where we see the moment of the change with the shrimp behavior unchanged and unstressed, but we don't have the one month or two month progress checks. I'll keep an eye out on the videos for this larger female shrimp. As always, interesting questions.

[Maximus]

That last shot is so fresh! I love the greenery mixed with that rock.

Do you have any tips on a feeding tray for the shrimp? I'm using some ramekins I have around but they are a bit tall like bowls.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:23 AM, Maximus said:

Do you have any tips on a feeding tray for the shrimp? I'm using some ramekins I have around but they are a bit tall like bowls.

It took me a second to find one. But I use an 80+ mm glass petri dish. They sell them on Amazon and come on all sorts of sizes and packs.  Depending on the size of the tank, split the food to multiple dishes.

WEAVERBIRD 80mm Aquarium Shrimp Feeder Dish Glass Fish Tank Feeding Bowls Round Clear Dishes Tray https://a.co/d/iaxwflt

As a sidenote, if you have any general questions about shrimp care please feel free to hit up my journal and ask me all the things! Happy to help. 🙂

[Maximus]

Thanks! I set up a new rack and am redoing the tank in the process of moving it over. I've got biorings as a substrate, which they seemed to like before. Feeding can be difficult though since it can fall into the cracks. Repashy has been a good solution for that. The water here has 0 minerals so I've been dosing with Seachem Equilibrium. If you have suggestions on plants to include, I'm all ears! I tried guppy grass in the past and it has been good, but I'm looking for something that will be a bit slower growing this time around. I have some extra windelov java fern, baby tears, and annubias nana petite. I was thinking the java fern would be easiest, maybe less maintenance than the baby tears. What do you think?

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:36 PM, Maximus said:

I have some extra windelov java fern, baby tears, and annubias nana petite. I was thinking the java fern would be easiest, maybe less maintenance than the baby tears. What do you think?

I would say stuff like ferns and anubias and buce should do well for you then!  I heard buce like pretty clean water. 🙂

[nabokovfan87]

@Odd Duck Just in case you hadn't seen this I wanted to share with you!  Given the conversation we had this week, maybe this is an interesting topic.

[Odd Duck]

On 10/8/2023 at 6:02 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

@Odd Duck Just in case you hadn't seen this I wanted to share with you!  Given the conversation we had this week, maybe this is an interesting topic.

Yes, I’ve been following along here and there since you started this topic.  Sometimes I get so behind on reading the forum that I don’t always read each post depending on how tired I am.  😆 😬