Discussion of LARGE tanks: It's happening! 196 gallon custom glass tank....

[madmark285]

On 4/27/2024 at 3:34 PM, anewbie said:

My machine is an LG front load (not sure if front load makes a difference vs top load);

That could be the difference, I have a top loading washing machine. Even with the extra small setting, the socks are swimming in water. I will have to remember that if we need to buy a new washing machine. 

For sponges, you have the right design, use alot of them. My first sump was poorly designed. 

Another forum member, @OnlyGenusCaps, is thinking about using poret foam in the filter sock holders. Bulk reef supplies sells plastic cups which fit in the sock rings. He has a saltwater tank and needs to change the sock every few days. His logic, rinsing out sponges is easier than washing the socks all the time. 

[madmark285]

FYI for concerning plumbing. My 75 gallon tank sat flush against a wall, there was an open in the wall behind the tank. Bottom line, I could not access the thru hull fitting/plumbing behind the tank. One day, the tank started a slow leak, I assumed it was the silicone seals. 

Turns out, the nut on the thru hull fitting was loose and the tank is fine. Next time I am going to put a stainless steel set screw into the nut so it can't loosen up. 

 

[anewbie]

On 4/27/2024 at 3:23 PM, madmark285 said:

 

Another forum member, @OnlyGenusCaps, is thinking about using poret foam in the filter sock holders. Bulk reef supplies sells plastic cups which fit in the sock rings. He has a saltwater tank and needs to change the sock every few days. His logic, rinsing out sponges is easier than washing the socks all the time. 

I'll have to take a look at these holders one day - they are only going to work if they force all the water through the cup and then you would need tight fitting sponges - else the water will try to flow around the sponges. My problem with the sock is on the one aquarium it had micro algae forming that clogged the socks weekly and once clogged the water doesn't pass through them - also there was some height issues that made accessing them a pia - there is a lot more room now between the top of the stand and the sump. A final issue is i'm deealing with 6 aquariums between 180 and 600 gallons so the work load was quite high - the other 5 tanks only need cleaning of a single sock one to eight weeks so it is more manageable. I would do all the tanks with the sponges if i was starting over (of course once i have to clean the sponges i might think differently) but since i already paid for the tubs i might as well as use them where manageable. 

-

There is another benefit to this design if small fishes get trapped into the sump - with the sock they almost certainly die - though the tank i did the sump replacement has no small fishes but something to consider if starting from scratch.

--

@xXInkedPhoenixX If you think of a clever way of keeping small fishes out of the socks let me know as that is still an issue i face.

 

[anewbie]

I think i might have a solution for the small fish issue but it will take me a while to test it - that is to replace the plastic thing they provide with an elbow and large sponge (think prefilter); it won't look pretty but it will also solve the issue of plant matter blocking the small slits which is also an issue if you have a large amount of floaters like this:

[madmark285]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:06 PM, anewbie said:

the other 5 tanks only need cleaning of a single sock one to eight weeks so it is more manageable. I would do all the tanks with the sponges if i was starting over

If I had sponges for mechanical filtering, I would toss them in the washing machine and see what happens :-)

I was thinking about the issue of a washing machine not cleaning filter socks. So for my latest and hopefully last sump design, I going to glue the sock holder (4" PVC coupling) to the sump cover/lid (1/2" piece of cellular PVC). For maintenance ie: changing the socks, I don't have to remove the sump lid. If I have to switch to sponges ie: wife buys a front loading LG washing machine, just knock off the sock holders and stick a sponges in that chamber.

Couple other features I put in my sumps, I glue in a 1/2" piece of CPVC. For water changes, I  get a siphon going and stick the hose on the pipe to drain the water reservoir chamber. I also put the heater in a coffin just in case I forget to unplug it when I drain the sump. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 4/29/2024 at 11:06 AM, anewbie said:

I'll have to take a look at these holders one day - they are only going to work if they force all the water through the cup and then you would need tight fitting sponges - else the water will try to flow around the sponges.

Absolutely true!  The cups are not expensive and are designed to fit into the holes for the socks.  The Poret can be cut down to size and you can select the porosity you want.  I'm almost certainly going to go this route as I change over to my new tank/sump.  At the very least, it'll be a cheap thing to try, which might work better. 

[anewbie]

On 5/2/2024 at 3:31 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

Absolutely true!  The cups are not expensive and are designed to fit into the holes for the socks.  The Poret can be cut down to size and you can select the porosity you want.  I'm almost certainly going to go this route as I change over to my new tank/sump.  At the very least, it'll be a cheap thing to try, which might work better. 

Not sure - i looked at some and they are not very large relative to the sock used by custom aquarium. For a small sump they are probably fine but for larger system i'm not sure they have space for enough surface area for effective mechanical cleaning. In my case the sump itself is 80 gallon and the flow rate is around 3300 gph (600 gallon aquarium). If you look at the picture above of my sump the surface area of the sponges i'm using must be 30x-60x what i could get in one of those small cups.

True I would have 4 cups but still it doesn't look that promising to myself. The socks themselves are more than  4x larger than a cup. True the cup would have solid media vs an open container so not a good comparison but the cups are tiny.

 

[gardenman]

If money is no object, you can bypass the sock issue entirely by using a roller filter for a sump. They're a neat filtering option that uses a roll of material for the water to pass through and then when the water level starts to rise in the roller filter housing as the material clogs, (or it can be activated by a timer) a motor gets triggered to advance the filter material so a clean section rolls into place and old dirty section gets removed from the water column. The issues are they're expensive to buy and the replacement roller filter material can be pricey.

I made my own many years ago (2016, photo below) that I'd advance manually each day and I simply used some cut-down quilt batting as my filter material. This was for an above-tank drip filter system with a water pump in the tank moving water up to the roller filter, but the same thing can apply to a sump. I'd feed the fish and advance the filter material. You can see the dirty batting on the left and the clean roll on the right. I built in an overflow so if the material clogged the water would bypass the roller sections and go straight into the drip tower, but it never failed.

I just used a cheap Sterilite container, a couple of capped pieces of PVC pipe for the roller, acrylic rods to hold the rollers, and some plastic cross-stitch material for the bottom. I had plans to automate it later on using either a float or water sensor to monitor the water level in the box, but I never did. Water came in from the side between the two rollers, then drained through the material, trapping the debris. Each day I'd just move fresh material into place. The drain was covered by a piece of plastic cross-stitch material and it worked well. It was a lot cheaper than the commercially available units. My cost was maybe $25 to make it. A very cheap, effective way to filter debris and take it out of the water column completely.

 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 4/29/2024 at 8:15 AM, madmark285 said:

FYI for concerning plumbing. My 75 gallon tank sat flush against a wall, there was an open in the wall behind the tank.

We had that concern too (not being to access all plumbing). Though a peninsula tank we're placing it off the wall, Intrepid Partner is going to be building a box to cover the end that will be removable and a wall/shelving unit that fits flush to the wall to make the whole thing look like it's basically a wall without a gap on that side of the tank. 

 

On 4/29/2024 at 9:06 AM, anewbie said:

 If you think of a clever way of keeping small fishes out of the socks let me know as that is still an issue i face.

Supposedly CA thought of these things as Intrepid Partner stressed that I'm a small fish keeper- however I fully anticipate issues with the design. I'm hoping whatever I can come up with is INSIDE the tank and hopefully won't even deal with fish getting into the sump - but I'm sure I'll have trial and error- hopefully at not too high of a fish life expense. I anticipate some loss. 

On 5/2/2024 at 1:31 PM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

The Poret can be cut down to size and you can select the porosity you want. 

This is very interesting material. Wondering if I can somehow also incorporate this design into my sump, kind of the best of both worlds with @anewbie's new sponge set up and traditional sump set up with the socks or bio media. Maybe even ultimately just going this route. 

On 4/29/2024 at 9:06 AM, anewbie said:

also there was some height issues that made accessing them a pia - there is a lot more room now between the top of the stand and the sump

Thankfully Intrepid Partner took note on this complaint in the forums he visited when coming up with stand design. It's TALL. I have lots of space ot maneuver. But, we're going to use a drywalling table for me to stand on to do maintenance 😆

Edited May 3 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[anewbie]

On 5/3/2024 at 7:22 AM, gardenman said:

If money is no object, you can bypass the sock issue entirely by using a roller filter for a sump. They're a neat filtering option that uses a roll of material for the water to pass through and then when the water level starts to rise in the roller filter housing as the material clogs, (or it can be activated by a timer) a motor gets triggered to advance the filter material so a clean section rolls into place and old dirty section gets removed from the water column. The issues are they're expensive to buy and the replacement roller filter material can be pricey.

I made my own many years ago (2016, photo below) that I'd advance manually each day and I simply used some cut-down quilt batting as my filter material. This was for an above-tank drip filter system with a water pump in the tank moving water up to the roller filter, but the same thing can apply to a sump. I'd feed the fish and advance the filter material. You can see the dirty batting on the left and the clean roll on the right. I built in an overflow so if the material clogged the water would bypass the roller sections and go straight into the drip tower, but it never failed.

I just used a cheap Sterilite container, a couple of capped pieces of PVC pipe for the roller, acrylic rods to hold the rollers, and some plastic cross-stitch material for the bottom. I had plans to automate it later on using either a float or water sensor to monitor the water level in the box, but I never did. Water came in from the side between the two rollers, then drained through the material, trapping the debris. Each day I'd just move fresh material into place. The drain was covered by a piece of plastic cross-stitch material and it worked well. It was a lot cheaper than the commercially available units. My cost was maybe $25 to make it. A very cheap, effective way to filter debris and take it out of the water column completely.

 

 

The problem is how to retrofit it to the existing tub - the tub is quite large but funneling the inflow into the roller might be more work. If you are going to replace the tub then i would just do what i did and put sponges in a glass container. In my case it is already setup and it is a lot of work and cost to do it so i'm reluctant to do it for the other tanks though also the water isn't quite as clear and i'm not 100% sure what is happening there - my last sponge in the chain is 30 ppi and i suppose i could get a 40ppi one - last but least these large sponges are not cheap i think they cost close to $400 for the set for the 600 gallon aquarium. Each sponge is 3 inches thick so don't underestimate the total volume if filtering. Actually I'm not sure if there is a loss in clarity - i'm looking through 10 feet of water when i make my comment. 

---

 

Anything as small as a pygmy cory or kubotai rasbora is going to be able to get into the sump. The survival rate in the sock is low for various reasons from finding the fish in there (you don't check them every day) to the force required to get them out. What i'm thinking now is putting a sponge over the top which is how they get in - the side grill is small enough - but how to fasten the sponge to the top is a problem and the thickness has to be limited do the gap between the top of the grill and the lid. I rather not use rubber bands but i might try one just to see if it works. What i'm finding is plant matter easily blocks the side grill esp over time and the water begins to flow over the top where the fishes can easily get in or if they jump just a tiny bit over time they get trap. I've had pygmy cory get in; some of my pencil fishes; some rasbora... and a couple of otto though they were on the smaller size. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 5/3/2024 at 6:32 AM, anewbie said:

Not sure - i looked at some and they are not very large relative to the sock used by custom aquarium.

Ah!  Please excuse my laziness.  I'll admit I didn't go all the way through the thread.  I did realize you had a Seamless Sump.  From what I understand, that company does live up to the "custom" part of their name, so it's totally possible that standard products may not be easily substituted.  You better than I on that. 

On 5/3/2024 at 6:32 AM, anewbie said:

True I would have 4 cups but still it doesn't look that promising to myself. The socks themselves are more than  4x larger than a cup.

If it's of any interest (and it may not be to be fair), my plan is to cut in an inverted cone shape to the sponge.  That way I am presenting more surface area to the water, which should increase flow capacity and reduce the likelihood of the surface getting clogged.  That's how I am going to address it - but mine is with a much lower flow rate!  I want enough flow to keep the K1 moving from the downflow pipes, but once I get good rotation, I prefer lower flow rates in my sumps overall (though there is much that can be discussed about this either way for sure).  I'm curious, are you relying on your filtration to be the main source of the flow in your tank, or are you going to be putting in power heads given the size of this tank?

On 5/3/2024 at 9:41 AM, anewbie said:

Actually I'm not sure if there is a loss in clarity - i'm looking through 10 feet of water when i make my comment.

Seems to me there is a good chance you already know this, but if you find a reduced clarity from tinting agents in the tank over time, I've found a UV sterilizer does wonders to keep the water clear!  I also have friends who swear by ozone, but I don't have experience with that yet.  This is a really cool tank you have going there!

[madmark285]

On 5/3/2024 at 9:46 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Intrepid Partner is going to be building a box to cover the end that will be removable and a wall/shelving unit

And I have no doubt, it will work and look great! Interpid Partner is very talented on building things, the stand is amazing.

Not to throw a monkey wrench into this build but I wish we could go back a year,  Interpid Partner could have built an amazing  sump using  a 55 gallon tank. 

On 5/3/2024 at 11:00 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

I've found a UV sterilizer does wonders to keep the water clear! 

Oh no!!!

Should I start investigating a UV sterilizer for my latest sump build 🙂 

[madmark285]

On 5/3/2024 at 9:46 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I'm hoping whatever I can come up with is INSIDE the tank and hopefully won't even deal with fish getting into the sump

What are you using for an overflow box?

I have the same problem, I lost a Hillstream loach who went into the sump. If using one of these, make sure it has a top. That would have stop my Hillstream loach. 

For the front slots, I am thinking about embedding small magnets on the front face then build a frame/screen with magnets. So the screen can be easily removed for cleaning, you don't want this to get plugged ie: overflowing your tank issues.  

For my 75 gallon Mbuna tank, I will be buying baby fish which could get sucked into the sump. So I will initially put a screen over the slots and once they get big, I can remove it. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:00 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

I've found a UV sterilizer does wonders to keep the water clear!  I

I've found this to be true in my smaller tanks. I believe Custom Aquarium included a UV in our build. 

On 5/3/2024 at 8:47 AM, madmark285 said:

And I have no doubt, it will work and look great! Interpid Partner is very talented on building things, the stand is amazing.

I agree. Couldn't say enough positive things about him 

On 5/3/2024 at 8:47 AM, madmark285 said:

Not to throw a monkey wrench into this build but I wish we could go back a year,  Interpid Partner could have built an amazing  sump using  a 55 gallon tank. 

Thing is, though he is helping me plumb the tank (I threatened that if I did it water would almost assuredly ruin the wood flooring at some point) but once that's done the tank and it's maintenance is almost entirely up to ME (though he also admits he wants to help with the inside set up also picking species, and I welcome his input). Purchasing the tank was his idea and neither of us knowing much about sumps or large tanks period we are both very much newbies in this. So we knew no better. I think one of the reasons why we chose Custom Aquarium is that they are very supportive and believe in their product so I'm willing to try how they sent the set up. They've been very helpful even after purchase when Intrepid Partner has called. 

As of right now I only have a small impression of what was included in this tank as the "guts" have been stored away since we got the tank. I'll be able to give this thread more of an impression of what's going on and how it's going together as time goes on. 

****The discussion about filtration between you all has been very helpful and gives me things to think about before I get to that point. So thanks! ****

On 5/3/2024 at 9:05 AM, madmark285 said:

For the front slots, I am thinking about embedding small magnets on the front face then build a frame/screen with magnets. So the screen can be easily removed for cleaning, you don't want this to get plugged ie: overflowing your tank issues.  

This is an interesting idea! Stainless mesh would be a good option I think. You'll have to let me know how it goes if you do this. 

Edited May 3 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Getting closer to moving the tank onto the stand. Intrepid Partner broke down and ordered 4 (125lb max load each, estimating the tank weighs at least 400lbs with 5/8" glass) suction glass movers as there was just no way we could see doing the move without them. It's going to require a lift to the waist then up to rib height to get the tank onto the stand. He's got 3-4 guys on call to do this but the moons have to align for them to be available at the same time! 

Edited May 18 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[DaveO]

The Sun, Moon and Earth recently aligned. I'm sure they will again for you.

[madmark285]

Man that tank is a beast!

On plumbing your sump, did you buy a StealthBox with 2400GPH Double H2Overflow Screens?

If yes, as discussed before, replace the ball value with a gate value. This is your main siphon drain, on a Herbie drain system, all the water is drained using this pipe. So with a 2 sock system:

 

So a PVC tee needs to be installed on the main siphon drain so the water flows evenly to both filter socks. 

Note: this is a noisy design as the water is free falling into the filter socks. On my sumps, the pipes extend into the sock. For example:

So the two red pipes are my main siphon drain, the socks are inside the 4" pvc pipe. To change the socks, I use the union to remove the pipes. 

The white piece of pipe is the emergency drain. This should be above the water level so it makes noise. This will tell you that you need to adjust the gate value. 

Hope this helps, Mark

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@madmark285 thank you!!! That's very helpful.

I was just listening to ACO podcast this morning when Cory mentioned Herbie drain system and I was going to look at that in more depth.

To answer your question, I'm not positive as Intrepid Partner did the ordering and he's not great at keeping emails or instruction/parts lists (assemble with abandon I think might be partly his motto) but I'm 90% sure I saw parts like that in the boxes we have. 

Edited May 22 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[madmark285]

What concerns me, video such as The Seamless Sump Aquarium Filter - Beginners Start Here. This may turn into a gurgling monster. 

What happens with these setup, a high flow rate siphon starts up on a line then it starts sucking in air breaking the siphon. Then air starts gurgling up the line until a siphon restarts. It just keeps repeating this cycle.

FYI, many reefers recommend this stuff for plumbing, Schedule 40 flexible pipe. You can use standard PVC fittings with this stuff, just glue in like regular pipe. It is for drain line only ie: not pressurized. 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@madmark285 thanks for that video link, very helpful. I'm not going to worry about noise. I'm going to let Intrepid Partner do that. I very much doubt that it will be an issue for me. My house is currently filled with a decent amount of white noise from 3 airpumps, 2 HOB and several clocks. I'm used to a certain level. Once we go to JUST this tank I'm not convinced it's going to bother me at all. He's going to be building a box around the hoses coming out of the tank so its possible we won't have an issue with noise coming out the back. I imagine we could line it with a sound deadening material as well if needed. I guess only time will tell with it. 

[madmark285]

On 5/23/2024 at 10:31 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

My house is currently filled with a decent amount of white noise from 3 airpumps, 2 HOB and several clocks

I made that mistake for my first sump, underestimating the noise from the drain lines. My first attempt was similar to this (I used a tee instead of a elbow ie: a vented drainline):

The gurgling monster noise was coming from inside the pipe, boxing out the plumbing would not solve the problem. It was loud and annoying and it would have been noisy 24/7, everyday of the year. You may have 400+ gph per overflow box, that is alot of water moving thru these pipes. 

I don't trust alot of youtube videos these day, they are getting free stuff in exchange for a positive review or are just looking for click counts. I call someone out on youtube and he freely admitted, he is just looking for click counts. 

You guys have the skills to do it right the first time, you wont regret it. 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Well folks, the moons eventually aligned and Intrepid Partner got 4 strongmen over to lift the 400lb monstrosity onto its throne. He also installed the stained glass. What's funny is he kept commenting on how tall it was and "what idiot designed this thing" multiple times. It is incredible how tall it is but I'm going to be able to manage it just fine. The drywalling table will help for sure, lol. Anyway here it is in all its glory: 

It is indeed a room divider, a wall even! Here it is when we tested it with a shop light to see what it might look like lit up (not final lights here): 

Then @anewbie you might especially appreciate (as I will) all the ROOM I have to service the sump: 

Pretty amazing eh? We are going to band the marine plywood too with something so that won't be seen (below the tank and below the stand). 

Intrepid Partner and I went through (finally) all the equipment and parts. We have no valves to speak of ball or otherwise.....is it because our design is a stripped down freshwater version? Do we NEED to add one somewhere and where..... seems like we probably should to control flow into the sump. We're not even close to starting the assembly yet. Intrepid Partner wants to do a little more shoring up of the underside of the house for his peace of mind. 

Edited May 29 by xXInkedPhoenixX
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[lefty o]

hot dang that looks good.  tall is great for looking at, less fun for cleaning. my 120 is up high too, and i stand on a bar stool while cleaning. i do however recommend something a bit safer than a bar stool to stand on.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

It looks incredible! Can’t wait to see this beauty continue to come together!

On 5/29/2024 at 9:34 AM, lefty o said:

i do however recommend something a bit safer than a bar stool to stand on.

Indeed. I got a step ladder and use that for my tall tanks. Still gets a little sketch sometimes, but it’s better than a barstool!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Yes, @AllFishNoBrakes and @lefty o, Intrepid Partner has suggested bringing home his drywalling table/bench so I can clean safely. I'm tall (5'8") so all I need is a little boost. It's something like this: 

That way I don't have to keep getting down to move closer to what I'm working on, just move side to side. 

Edited May 29 by xXInkedPhoenixX
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