Discussion of LARGE tanks: It's happening! 196 gallon custom glass tank....

[anewbie]

On 3/30/2024 at 11:42 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Yea that was my concern too with larger tanks typically used for larger fish. Intrepid Partner DID discuss this with the builder and told them it was for small fish- they insisted this tank is set up for them. Since I've yet to be able to go through the whole setup this of course cannot be verified. I'm prepared to jimmy rig, but clearly Intrepid Partner is handy with this sort of thing too. 

Yes some sort of fiber-glass mesh over the top should fix the issue; just bringing it up that it is an issue that you might want to address before adding fishes.

Also you do not want to glue in the intake to the overflow box as there will be times you want to remove them to clean them; plant matter/algae will gum up the sides over time so they do need an occasional cleaning.

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 3/30/2024 at 9:44 AM, anewbie said:

do not want to glue in the intake to the overflow

I do believe CA did tell the Intrepid Partner about this - they said something about the gluing only applying to salt water. I don't want to glue much if possible. I will definitely keep your post in mind. 

[anewbie]

On 3/30/2024 at 11:57 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I do believe CA did tell the Intrepid Partner about this - they said something about the gluing only applying to salt water. I don't want to glue much if possible. I will definitely keep your post in mind. 

To be clear it is the top piece the initial elbow will probably have to be glued but the piece that fits in on top should not and the elbow must be straight up. If they tilt then the piece on top (not sure what you call it; perhaps intake) will be crooked and the top grid will be more exposed making it easier for small fishes to get into the sump; of course if you cover this with fine netting that should help but then if the side holes get clogged you will have a big wet mess (there are pros and cons to everything - the best option would be if CA sold a top that had much finer holes).

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

What a fun thing to catch-up on?! @xXInkedPhoenixXI am so happy for you on multiple levels in reading this post. Have fun indeed!! Positive vibes and enjoy the journey! 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@anewbie thanks for the help! I will keep this bookmarked when we finally get ready to do the set up!

@Beardedbillygoat1975 thanks so much! This will be fun!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Intrepid Partner added a light to the stand, it may be temporary since we may go with a light that can change brightness and/or color but it gave us an idea of how it looks. 

We're at a tiny bit of a standstill. This last week we'd tried to plan to move the tank on top of the stand. So I helped Intrepid Partner do some finishing work on the doors (wood needed notches cut to accommodate magnet closure contact). Let me tell you how much I appreciate him having made the doors removeable. He'd attached the marine grade wood to the top and bottom of the stand as well. 

Once that was finished the stand was moved in place and we uncrated the tank (at least took everything off but the platform) to get ready to move it. 

Then we got to discussing how we're going to move this approximately 400lb tank to the stand later (we had potential help on standby) but noticed we have a floor problem. 

Backstory: The area you see to the left of the stand in pictures used to be a garage once upon. Well the area where the tank is going to be placed (for good reason) used to be a wall so it has support under the house. However, the floor where the wall used to be is not totally flat. One side of the stand is pretty flush the other not so much, almost a seesaw effect. Now while in my estimation this will likely level out (meaning the higher side will probably be pushed down) with a 400lb tank on it (and water) Intrepid Partner wants to look into using a foam pad similar or the same as the one the tank has to sit on. Here is how it sits on the left side closest to the outer house wall: 

And here is the side furthest away: 

There is always something isn't there? To be continued....

[madmark285]

Awesome tank! I need to sign my dear wife to a welding class 🙂 I hate wood for aquarium stands, metal doesn't warp when wet. 

I am way late to the party and not sure if this is possible but on low maintence sumps, I am a strong believer in fluidized bed filter using K1 media.  They are not that complex to build, just need a good air pump & air stones. Fluidized bed are self cleaning, you just have to maintain the air stones. Fluidized or moving bed filters are widely used in the water treatment industry. 

I don't understand these massive sump on youtube with every type of bio-media tossed in, just seems like a waste of money. A fluidized bed can effectively handle ammonia and nitrite, why bother with anything else? 

The downside of fluidized bed filter with K1 media, they can be a bit noisy. But if you want a quiet time like in the evenings, just put the air pump on a timer. The filter will still work and no worries about killing the bacteria. 

I have 2 sets of filter socks. When I replace the 1st set of socks, I just toss them in a bucket. When the second set need to be clean, I toss both sets in the washing machine with a little bleach. Of course this done before my dear wife wakes up, the water in the washing machine get solid green! Mrs. Mad got quite mad when she saw that mess. 

Making a sump using an aquarium is quite easy if you use the right material. 

 

[madmark285]

On making it quite, the Herbie drain system with a gate value is the way to go. Of course there the Bean Animal drain system which is better but at minimum, I hope your sump has a Herbie system with a gate value. 

 

[anewbie]

On 4/25/2024 at 7:21 PM, madmark285 said:

On making it quite, the Herbie drain system with a gate value is the way to go. Of course there the Bean Animal drain system which is better but at minimum, I hope your sump has a Herbie system with a gate value. 

 

It is a herbie design but i think the valve is a ball valve which really does suck for fine tune adjustments. Of course @xXInkedPhoenixXcan run to the store and try to find a 1.5 inch gate valve before they put things together.

 

[madmark285]

On 4/25/2024 at 9:41 PM, anewbie said:

i think the valve is a ball valve which really does suck for fine tune adjustments.

I tried a 1" PVC ball value, a complete disaster. For the final fine tuning, I am just nudging the gate value. I can no longer find cheap gate values (1" or large) on Amazon, the Spears 1 1/5" cost ~$100 at BulkReef.

 

[anewbie]

On 4/26/2024 at 4:05 AM, madmark285 said:

I tried a 1" PVC ball value, a complete disaster. For the final fine tuning, I am just nudging the gate value. I can no longer find cheap gate values (1" or large) on Amazon, the Spears 1 1/5" cost ~$100 at BulkReef.

 

Yea i just looked up prices from your comments. Of course for @xXInkedPhoenixX s/he will only need 1 - my aquariums are already setup so it would be a fair amount of work and expense to replace the valves - to be honest there are only 2 of my aquariums that could really benefit from finer adjustment. 

[madmark285]

On 4/26/2024 at 5:40 AM, anewbie said:

Yea i just looked up prices from your comments

A few years back Amazon had a 1" version of this value, ProLine Stop Valve PVC, for around $15. I can't find it anymore. The Seamless sumps are not cheap, not sure why they don't offer a gate value. 

[anewbie]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:23 AM, madmark285 said:

A few years back Amazon had a 1" version of this value, ProLine Stop Valve PVC, for around $15. I can't find it anymore. The Seamless sumps are not cheap, not sure why they don't offer a gate value. 

Margins. The tanks are actually well priced compared to competition; the sumps are a bit pricey - i forget what the containers are made of - i don't think it is polyp but seems similar (polyp is very expensive). The problem is they are a 'custom' part with relatively low volume. To be honest i much prefer doing the sump without them now that i replaced one - this is the picture (i think it is already in this thread):

(original)

 

replacement (there are pro and con of both approaches - one con is the below one are glass and can break - though you could do it in acrylic - i'm not going to list all the pro/con but if i were starting over i would do all of them like the one below but find someone to make them out of acrylic instead of glass.

-

Anyway the valves are a pia to adjust but once adjusted they are not too bad. I did not realize how bad they were or look into alternative until after i had the system setup and mine are glued in - though  i could insert a 2nd valve directly into the tubing if i cared enough to do it (the valve has a slip glued into and that is glued into the overflow box and if you don't glue them they will leak).

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@madmark285 and @anewbie a LOT to think about. I had watched the k1 type sumps in youtube videos in the past and think it's a super cool concept (seems more often applied to people who keep larger fish though yes I'm aware of its use in smaller applications). My concern is, yes the noise. The house is VERY small and the people I share the house with (2 besides myself) are VERY noise sensitive. I'm already concerned about the level of noise it will make even running "as designed". I will though still consider moving filter beds. I'm not running anything with high bioload though. Only nano style fish and I don't plan on coming close to being overstocked. 

I am wondering though if your suggestions to use a gate valve would be prudent even using it as it is designed and leaving the future issues or changes open to a different valve. If it's permanent and has to be glued but is the better option I don't mind spending the 100 dollars if it needs to happen. This is not an inexpensive project and I don't want to cheap out on it now! 

Edited April 26 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

I think you’ll be better off shimming under the stand with hard shims - wood, hard plastic, or similar vs. using only a softer, rubber pad.  I think the soft pad is also a good idea but I wouldn’t want your stand ever so slowly warping under the tank.

[anewbie]

You will also want a DC pump and not the pump CA normally sells with thier aquarium. They are a million times quieter. The JEBO DCP are not only much much quiter they are also very inexpensive:

https://www.amazon.com/Jebao-Sine-Water-Return-DCP-2500/dp/B078WHWG2Y/

 

The flow rate is fully control - the amount it shows when setting is % of max. I'd recommend one size larger than you think you need. On one of my aquarium i'm using 5000 but most of the aquariums have 3500. I tested various pumps (none of the super expensive ones) in a pail in the bath-tub to see the difference in noise. Other than one aquarium that came with CA's kit i purchased my own pumps.

 

The pump is EASY to change after the fact so you can wait and swap it later if noise is an issue.

 

I just noticed your tank is drilled at the end instead of the middle. I wonder how well it will work and am interested in seeing pictures of the water flow after you set it up. I sort of wished i had done one my aquariums that way - to be honest I didn't think about where to put the overflow and just did what the sales person recommended. 

Edited April 27 by anewbie

[madmark285]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:32 AM, anewbie said:

one con is the below one are glass and can break - though you could do it in acrylic - i'm not going to list all the pro/con but if i were starting over i would do all of them like the one below but find someone to make them out of acrylic instead of glass.

High-density polyethylene (HDPE) used by Seamless sump may be the best material for sumps. For DIY'er, it is hard to find a HDPE tubs and adding baffle walls may be a challenge. For a 20 gallon sump, 26" x 18" x 15" White Plastic Food Storage Box (~$50/shipping) might work. 

For sump using aquariums, I use 1/2 in. x 24 in. x 4 ft. White Reversible PVC Trim/Sheet ($42) for the baffle walls. Easy to cut and glue. The sump I am currently building will use 4 in. PVC  Coupling ($3.88) for the filter sock holder, they fit perfectly. 

So for a large sump using 40 gallon breeder, 3 filter socks and a fluidized bed (~5 gallons K1 media), this would cost:

Aqueon 40g on sale: $65

PVC sheet: $42

3 PVC couplings: $12

Heavy PVC glue& primer $15

Tube of silicone $8

K1 media ~$60

6 filter socks $30

Air pump (Tetra 150 class) & air stones $50

Orlushy DC-5000 water pump $65

Total $350. 

Note: You could build (2) 29 gallon sumps using the DC-4000 pumps for $220/each. A sump is on par with the Fluval FX canister filters concerning cost.

Edited April 27 by madmark285

[madmark285]

On 4/26/2024 at 1:04 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

My concern is, yes the noise. The house is VERY small and the people I share the house with (2 besides myself) are VERY noise sensitive.

Understood. I believe you bought a Seamless sump, how quiet are these?  Intrepid Partner built a stunning Aquarium stand but it may not dampen noise from the sump. So i understand your concern. 

On a moving/fluidized bed filter, circulation pump would be quieter. I tried using an Aqueon pump, the K1 media got sucked around the pump shown below:

To get a self cleaning filter, the K1 media needs alot of movement. But you should be able to use a timer and only run the air or circulation pumps a few hours/day.  A bio filter with static K1 media is still very effective. 

[madmark285]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:10 PM, anewbie said:

I just noticed your tank is drilled at the end instead of the middle.

I setup my 40 gallon breeder this way, the overflow box on the side and the return line next to it in the corner. I had poor water circulation issue with just the single return line. I added another return line, now I have a return line, overflow box and another return line on the side of the tank. This improved circulation greatly.

 

[madmark285]

On 4/26/2024 at 11:32 AM, anewbie said:

i would do all of them like the one below but find someone to make them out of acrylic instead of glass.

Cool sump!! I hate sponges but with your system, you don't have to clean them often.

This is my latest sump. It is somewhat complicated because I like building things. The sump currently under construction will be much simpler. 

The white panel with the 2 blue dashes is where the water exits into the return pump chamber. I added a couple more inches to it after testing the sump. Similar to HOB filters, this panel is sloped so the water slides down it ie:  this  eliminated the waterfall which can be very noisy. 

For the fluidized bed chamber, the water inlets are the 1" PVC pipes (both have air stones on top), the outlet is the box structure. The white panel labeled "top" was added just in case the box didn't work. It was not needed. Both work fine.

 

 

Edited April 27 by madmark285

[anewbie]

On 4/27/2024 at 8:21 AM, madmark285 said:

Cool sump!! I hate sponges but with your system, you don't have to clean them often.

This is my latest sump. It is somewhat complicated because I like building things. The sump currently under construction will be much simpler. 

The white panel with the 2 blue dashes is where the water exits into the return pump chamber. I added a couple more inches to it after testing the sump. Similar to HOB filters, this panel is sloped so the water slides down it ie:  this  eliminated the waterfall which can be very noisy. 

For the fluidized bed chamber, the water inlets are the 1" PVC pipes (both have air stones on top), the outlet is the box structure. The white panel labeled "top" was added just in case the box didn't work. It was not needed. Both work fine.

 

 

Can you show a picture of the running sump i can't visualize how the k1 works in it. Also I'm a bit confused - you hate sponges but yet you use socks. My problem with socks is they required frequently cleaning and were very painful to clean. While the sponges will be painful to clean instead of once a week it will probably be once a year. (What makes the sponges  pain to clean is their raw size; for smaller sponges they are a lot easier to clean than socks).

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:54 PM, Odd Duck said:

think you’ll be better off shimming under the stand with hard shims - wood, hard plastic,

You are in line with Custom Aquarium's recommendation. Intrepid Partner called them and this is what they said too. We have some left over Birch from the door build so he is going to try and shim it with that. 

On 4/26/2024 at 5:10 PM, anewbie said:

You will also want a DC pump and not the pump CA normally sells with thier aquarium. They are a million times quieter

Noted.Thank you. 

On 4/27/2024 at 4:32 AM, madmark285 said:

Understood. I believe you bought a Seamless sump, how quiet are these?

No idea to be honest. Getting this tank was entirely Intrepid Partner's idea in support of my hobby. This will be my first venture into a sump system. I've only ever had tanks 20 gallons and smaller with sponge filters and HOB. What little noise they make has never bothered me but Intrepid Partner notices it. 

On 4/27/2024 at 4:32 AM, madmark285 said:

Intrepid Partner built a stunning Aquarium stand but it may not dampen noise from the sump. So i understand your concern. 

Thank you, I agree, and that's true- this stand was definitely not built to dampen sound. He went on a bunch of forums looking at fish keepers' complaints about stands. Of course you've mentioned wood not being great because it warps- he noted that and used marine grade wood for what little of the stand has wood. The decorative birch that will be on the doors has been coated with waterproof polyurethane. He also intentionally built the doors with gaps because of complaints of condensation inside the stands. Also it's tall, giving more space for maintenance and the doors come off if I need to get really serious about stuff. I personally have no issues with white noise, so I'm hoping he'll be ok with the tank once it's set up otherwise we have some tweaking to do!!!

As to discussion yesterday about valves @anewbie and @madmark285, Intrepid Partner and I believe a gate valve is one modification we will make when setting up the tank so thanks for that. 

On 4/26/2024 at 5:10 PM, anewbie said:

I just noticed your tank is drilled at the end instead of the middle. I wonder how well it will work and am interested in seeing pictures of the water flow after you set it up. I sort of wished i had done one my aquariums that way - to be honest I didn't think about where to put the overflow and just did what the sales person recommended. 

Yes, it was going to be a peninsula tank/room divider all along so that was the only way to go. It's a 7 foot tank so yea the water has to get far. I think per CA's recommendations we have a chance at good flow because they sent 2 pretty pricey wave makers which will help get the water all the way to the end at a decent clip. Hopefully not causing any issues for the small fish I intend to keep. 

Intrepid Partner did all the tank ordering so I have a feeling since he's not the fish keeper that he did a lot of what the sales person recommended. As good as they seem to be with these tanks I'm sure we'll be happy with the vast majority of what they put with this tank. 

We discussed a moving filter bed last night and both agreed that other than the gate valve, for now we will just set the tank up as CA sent it and tweak things from there. 

Edited April 27 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[madmark285]

On 4/27/2024 at 10:05 AM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

We discussed a moving filter bed last night and both agreed that other than the gate valve, for now we will just set the tank up as CA sent it and tweak things from there. 

You won't regret getting the gate value. For a quiet system, you should have a couple inches of water above the main siphon drain in the overflow box. So if your water pump is operating at 432.7 gph, your main siphon line needs to be operating at 432.7 gph. It's not that hard to tune. Once you are close, you just tweak the gate value a little and wait a few minutes to adjust. FYI, the full siphon flow rate of 1.5" pipe may be over 1,500 gph. 

On easy maintenance, having filter socks makes a big difference. I am a strong believer in separating mechanical and bio filtering. So if your filter socks are removing much of the organic crap in the tank, the bio media (ceramic rings?) would rarely need cleaning. 

And if you change the filter socks weekly, you are removing organic material before it breaks down into ammonia. You should get less nitrates in the tank. 

 

[madmark285]

On 4/27/2024 at 9:55 AM, anewbie said:

you hate sponges but yet you use socks. My problem with socks is they required frequently cleaning and were very painful to clean.

I just toss the socks into the washing machine with a little bleach and a second rinse. I have multiple sets, I wash all of them every few weeks. Washing the socks by hand would be a pia. 

I hated removing the sponge from the sump, all that crap in the sponge would dump into the sump. So then I would have to siphon all the water out of the sump to clean it. 

On 4/27/2024 at 9:55 AM, anewbie said:

While the sponges will be painful to clean instead of once a week it will probably be once a year.

My first sump used two large sponges (course and fine). After a week or so, the water would just flow over them as the sponges collected crap from the tank. I prefer to get the crap out of the tank before it breaks down to ammonia. 

 

On 4/27/2024 at 9:55 AM, anewbie said:

Can you show a picture of the running sump i can't visualize how the k1 works in it.

Video link. I need to add an air value to balance the flow between the airstones. I also put a 4" PVC coupling on top of the pipes. 

[anewbie]

On 4/27/2024 at 2:24 PM, madmark285 said:

I just toss the socks into the washing machine with a little bleach and a second rinse. I have multiple sets, I wash all of them every few weeks. Washing the socks by hand would be a pia. 

 

I found the washing machine did diddly to clean my sock (and yes i turned them inside out before washing). My machine is an LG front load (not sure if front load makes a difference vs top load); so i gave up on the washing machine and clean them via strong water flow through a sprout (think chest level tub sprout with full flow). I suppose if washing machine would actually clean them it would be alittle easier though turning them inside out is still a pia.

--

I can see the sponges as the doors aren't on the stand yet and for the past month the sponges are definitely not being clogged. As you saw from the picture i have a 5 so if it begins to flow over one there is time to clean it before it clogs the next.

-

Your point about waste break down and nitrate is an interesting one i had not known nor considered. To be honest that is one thing i hate about the CA setup as the filtration is top heavy and one aspect i had debate for a long time was drilling the tanks from the bottom. In the end i skip the bottom drill because i thought it was one less thing to go horribly wrong (gasket failing at the bottom - if it is at the top yea 50 to 100 gallon will drip out but that is a lot better than 600 gallons.