Rams and Apistos together?

[Lennie]

Hey guys,

Coming from cichlids are cichlids perspective:

Has anyone tried keeping apistos and rams together? In what gallon/liters of a tank with what kind of a setup worked the best for you, if you ever did?

My black rams don’t seem to care anyone in the tank, but they barely sometimes show dominance towards each other for a couple minutes and then let it go.

I am really enjoying the cichlids lately as I haven’t been keeping them for ages. Would it be okay to keep 3 black rams with 2 apistos 1m:1f) for example?

Would they bully each other or just their own species mainly? 

I really like some apistos, mainly agassizi fire reds and borellii opals specifically. Just in case the species matters.

the other tank mates are honey gourami, sterbai corys, rummy noses and one L199 pleco.

the tank is 100x40x40cm (160liters/42g)

 

@anewbie maybe you’d like to share your opinion/experience

Edited March 14, 2023 by Lennie

[Theplatymaster]

@Lennie

i dont think this would work well.

while they do enjoy similar parameters, there is a reason people are not recommended to mix centerpiece fish.

Just do one, i think the risk of the pairs fighting is too high to risk it.

[NOLANANO]

a while back I had a pair of GBRs with a pair of Apisto Borelli for about 3 months in a 75G. The rams bullied the apistos into hiding. Every time either apisto came out of the planted areas, they were chased until they went back into hiding.  The female apisto dies fairly quickly as she never really braved the open and just starved to death. The Male would come out some but would quickly get put back in his place. I eventually returned him to the LFS.

At the LFS they had a beautiful Apisto Macmasteri Red Shoulder and the guy at the store mentioned that maybe a bigger more robust Apisto would stand up to the Rams be able to carve out a territory.  Trying not to make the same mistake twice, I bought only the male. This way if it goes south, the female won't pay the price too. The new Apisto was able to hold his ground and at first it looked like it might work out. Then my male ram just started breathing heavy and wouldn't come out of hiding. I don't think he was sick becuase no other fish ever got sick. I think he was stressed to death by the presence of the Apisto. I treated the tank with Genral Cure anyway in case it was an internal parasite. The Male Ram eventually passed despite the efforts.  Shortly after the Male passed, the female also went into hiding and began to breath heavily. Knowing that I just treated the whole tank for parasites, it was evident that this Ram was also dying of stress (and possible heart break?).  

Once the Rams were gone, I went back and bought the female for the Apisto and they lived out the remainder of their lives happily.  WHen they passed on from natural causes, I got a group of rams and was much happier with that set up.

Long Story Short: Just pick one and get a group or pair of them.

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:13 PM, NOLANANO said:

a while back I had a pair of GBRs with a pair of Apisto Borelli for about 3 months in a 75G. The rams bullied the apistos into hiding. Every time either apisto came out of the planted areas, they were chased until they went back into hiding.  The female apisto dies fairly quickly as she never really braved the open and just starved to death. The Male would come out some but would quickly get put back in his place. I eventually returned him to the LFS.

At the LFS they had a beautiful Apisto Macmasteri Red Shoulder and the guy at the store mentioned that maybe a bigger more robust Apisto would stand up to the Rams be able to carve out a territory.  Trying not to make the same mistake twice, I bought only the male. This way if it goes south, the female won't pay the price too. The new Apisto was able to hold his ground and at first it looked like it might work out. Then my male ram just started breathing heavy and wouldn't come out of hiding. I don't think he was sick becuase no other fish ever got sick. I think he was stressed to death by the presence of the Apisto. I treated the tank with Genral Cure anyway in case it was an internal parasite. The Male Ram eventually passed despite the efforts.  Shortly after the Male passed, the female also went into hiding and began to breath heavily. Knowing that I just treated the whole tank for parasites, it was evident that this Ram was also dying of stress (and possible heart break?).  

Once the Rams were gone, I went back and bought the female for the Apisto and they lived out the remainder of their lives happily.  WHen they passed on from natural causes, I got a group of rams and was much happier with that set up.

Long Story Short: Just pick one and get a group or pair of them.

What an experience!

Many thanks for sharing it with me. I already have 3 rams in my tank as it is, and I love them. 
 

I guess it is the nature of being cichlid in similar sizes? Cause mine don’t care about gourami at all, even when it invades their space, they just let him be, even let him eat their food.

I’ve also seen people keeping rams with discus and angels, thought maybe apistos could work too as they are also cichlids.

thanks again!

 

[NOLANANO]

Yeah my rams (RIP) didn't fight with any other fish other than Apistos, other rams, and weirdly enough peacock gudgeon.  

[anewbie]

I would not mix rams with apisto unless the tank is quite large and well scaped; the problem is that they both occupy the lower levels and both want their own territory to raise youngs. I suppose 1 male of each might work but not pairs or harems. If the tank is large enough (and a 75 very well scaped might work) then the story is a bit different but it comes down to individual fishes and specific species. Some will want a foot for their territory others 4 feet so there is no clear answer here. 

Keep in mind that rams want temp around 82 so you would want a species  of apisto that prefer warmer waters and are not too aggressive. I actually made a list somewhere of potential species that might work as I was considering mixing the two in 48x48 cube. One of the species i came up with was a. megaptera. this species is not overly aggressive and definitely prefers warmer water; mind you have not tried this combo but it was on my list of options.

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:38 PM, anewbie said:

I would not mix rams with apisto unless the tank is quite large and well scaped; the problem is that they both occupy the lower levels and both want their own territory to raise youngs. I suppose 1 male of each might work but not pairs or harems. If the tank is large enough (and a 75 very well scaped might work) then the story is a bit different but it comes down to individual fishes and specific species. Some will want a foot for their territory others 4 feet so there is no clear answer here. 

Keep in mind that rams want temp around 82 so you would want a species  of apisto that prefer warmer waters and are not too aggressive. I actually made a list somewhere of potential species that might work as I was considering mixing the two in 48x48 cube. One of the species i came up with was a. megaptera. this species is not overly aggressive and definitely prefers warmer water; mind you have not tried this combo but it was on my list of options.

Cool!

yea I keep my tank around 80-82F. 
 

I actually have a 50x50 cube that is quite planted as well. That one has a stocking of red lizard whiptails, otos, pygmy cories, neocaridinas and mystery snails. It is a super chill tank without any centerpiece fish really.

Isk to what extend apistos would fit in that peaceful environment, and if they would bother anything there?

Also, apistos are never being sold alone here. So always either a 1m:1f, and sometimes 1m:2f.

so for 50cube and considering stockings, would apistos be a fit there as a 1m:1f? Or 1m:2f? Especially borelliis or fire reds? Or any other recommendations if these are too agressive? 
more importantly do they go after shrimp and snails?

This is the 50cube tank. I keep this one 25C:

Edited March 14, 2023 by Lennie

[anewbie]

I believe a. megaptera will require fairly pure water to breed successfully  as well as ph below 6.5 but not 100% sure - they are generally kept in near blackwater condition - which is to say very pure water.

[Guppysnail]

@Lennie thank you for this topic. I have been toying with the idea of adding Apisto to my rams tank also. I now see it is a no go. 

[anewbie]

On 3/14/2023 at 11:54 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Lennie thank you for this topic. I have been toying with the idea of adding Apisto to my rams tank also. I now see it is a no go. 

it is not a given - breeders tell me black rams are more aggressive for some reason; ive always kept gold rams - still i would not mix the a species of apistogramma with rams unless the aquarium was well scape and fairly large and even then i would be prepared to remove one group. The thing is that when you say 'apistogramma' you might as well be talking about dwarf cichild in general because there are so many species with different behavior and level of aggression. I identified 4 or 5 species of apistogramma that prefer warmer waters but haven't gotten around to actually testing any of them with rams. Anyway megaptera is certainly an interesting species and seems to occasionally become available so sooner or later i might try a group.

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:54 PM, Guppysnail said:

@Lennie thank you for this topic. I have been toying with the idea of adding Apisto to my rams tank also. I now see it is a no go. 

They are both really beautiful fish! I feel you.

I would love to see it working just as it does with bigger cichlids 😞

What apisto was on your mind? Anything you like in particular?

They all look amazing 🙂

Also @tolstoy21. Maybe you'd like to share your opinion/experience as well!

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:00 PM, anewbie said:

it is not a given - breeders tell me black rams are more aggressive for some reason; ive always kept gold rams - still i would not mix the a species of apistogramma with rams unless the aquarium was well scape and fairly large and even then i would be prepared to remove one group. The thing is that when you say 'apistogramma' you might as well be talking about dwarf cichild in general because there are so many species with different behavior and level of aggression. I identified 4 or 5 species of apistogramma that prefer warmer waters but haven't gotten around to actually testing any of them with rams. Anyway megaptera is certainly an interesting species and seems to occasionally become available so sooner or later i might try a group.

Do you have any online source that would give in depth detail about spefic apistos? Everything seems to be super generalised.

I would love to nerd some and learn more about the ones I like

[Guppysnail]

On 3/14/2023 at 1:01 PM, Lennie said:

What apisto was on your mind? Anything you like in particular?

My friend has macmasteri and one other type I don’t remember the name of. I’ve just not done Apisto or any cichlid other than my GBR so I was going with whatever fry he has at the time I’m ready to get my feet wet with them. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Guppysnail

[tolstoy21]

On 3/14/2023 at 1:01 PM, Lennie said:

Also @tolstoy21. Maybe you'd like to share your opinion/experience as well!

To be honest, I really don't know. All my apistos are in breeding tanks, so I don't really have any in my personal aquariums/community tanks. So, I really have limited first-hand experience keeping them in community tanks.

Is that the question being asked?

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:11 PM, tolstoy21 said:

To be honest, I really don't know. All my apistos are in breeding tanks, so I don't really have any in my personal aquariums/community tanks. So, I really have limited first-hand experience keeping them in community tanks.

Is that the question being asked?

Yeah, most of the topic is evolving around community tanks.

I remember seeing your apistos, and wanted to learn if you have any experiences!

Thanks 

[tolstoy21]

On 3/14/2023 at 1:13 PM, Lennie said:

Yeah, most of the topic is evolving around community tanks.

I remember seeing your apistos, and wanted to learn if you have any experiences!

Yeah I only have one 'personal' aquarium, and it has nano fish and caridina and neocaridina shrimp at the current moment. So things like apistos don't go in there.

I have kept a couple cacatuoides in a community tank in the past, and they were fine with the other fish.  But I guess they were the only cichlid in there.

Edited March 14, 2023 by tolstoy21

[DiscusLover]

On 3/14/2023 at 6:50 AM, Lennie said:

Hey guys,

Coming from cichlids are cichlids perspective:

Has anyone tried keeping apistos and rams together? In what gallon/liters of a tank with what kind of a setup worked the best for you, if you ever did?

My black rams don’t seem to care anyone in the tank, but they barely sometimes show dominance towards each other for a couple minutes and then let it go.

I am really enjoying the cichlids lately as I haven’t been keeping them for ages. Would it be okay to keep 3 black rams with 2 apistos 1m:1f) for example?

Would they bully each other or just their own species mainly? 

I really like some apistos, mainly agassizi fire reds and borellii opals specifically. Just in case the species matters.

the other tank mates are honey gourami, sterbai corys, rummy noses and one L199 pleco.

the tank is 100x40x40cm (160liters/42g)

 

@anewbie maybe you’d like to share your opinion/experience

I also have black rams and well, they are like devils. I had two pairs in my 55 and my pair had killed off one of the female and left a male. I believe that it could come with really huge risks. I'm not sure how old your rams are but as they get older their aggression will spike. Black rams are notoriously known for being extremely aggressive and it shows, they even go after my 7inch angelfish... I would say to just stick with one of them.  

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:18 PM, tolstoy21 said:

I have kept a couple cacatuoides in a community tank in the past, and they were fine with the other fish.  But I guess they were the only cichlid in there.

 

On 3/14/2023 at 7:46 PM, Lennie said:

Cool!

yea I keep my tank around 80-82F. 
 

I actually have a 50x50 cube that is quite planted as well. That one has a stocking of red lizard whiptails, otos, pygmy cories, neocaridinas and mystery snails. It is a super chill tank without any centerpiece fish really.

Isk to what extend apistos would fit in that peaceful environment, and if they would bother anything there?

Also, apistos are never being sold alone here. So always either a 1m:1f, and sometimes 1m:2f.

so for 50cube and considering stockings, would apistos be a fit there as a 1m:1f? Or 1m:2f? Especially borelliis or fire reds? Or any other recommendations if these are too agressive? 
more importantly do they go after shrimp and snails?

This is the 50cube tank. I keep this one 25C:

Would they make an okay tank mate in this tank, or would they potentially be bullies with this stocking? Have you ever kept them with shrimp and snails?

On 3/14/2023 at 8:19 PM, DiscusLover said:

I also have black rams and well, they are like devils. I had two pairs in my 55 and my pair had killed off one of the female and left a male. I believe that it could come with really huge risks. I'm not sure how old your rams are but as they get older their aggression will spike. Black rams are notoriously known for being extremely aggressive and it shows, they even go after my 7inch angelfish... I would say to just stick with one of them.  

Amazing  looking fish 🙂

Mine are very small yet, like a half size of a honey gourami. I assume around 1 month old or so? 

All I see, for now, is they sometimes turn around each other in a circle trying to be bossy, and rarely shoo each other away by pecking and following for a short distance.

 

[Lennie]

Mine can be black/blues too. I don't know really.

Idk if they are pure black as juveniles, but mine currently look like the juviniles of black and blues.

If both have similar juvenile phase, then I don't know.

they currently look like these:

Edited March 14, 2023 by Lennie

[knee]

I've kept apistos (macmasteri, agassizii and viejita) with both types of rams (Ramirezi and Altispinosus). They coexisted fine with some chasing here and there but that's typical for most cichlids. 

They were also kept with a bunch of nano fish (lampeye killi, ember tetra, rosy loach, zebra hovering loach, pygmy cory)

No experience with black rams but I kept regular blue, gold and electric blue. Tank was about 40-45g (40" x 18" x 16"). Not saying it will work all the time, just speaking from my experience that it can work.

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:27 PM, knee said:

I've kept apistos (macmasteri, agassizii and viejita) with both types of rams (Ramirezi and Altispinosus). They coexisted fine with some chasing here and there but that's typical for most cichlids. 

They were also kept with a bunch of nano fish (lampeye killi, ember tetra, rosy loach, zebra hovering loach, pygmy cory)

No experience with black rams but I kept regular blue, gold and electric blue. Tank was about 40-45g (40" x 18" x 16"). Not saying it will work all the time, just speaking from my experience that it can work.

That's interesting.

Fish do have characters. Maybe yours were on the peaceful side, or others' were on the agressive side? 

I'm totally down to keep them in different tanks, but cichlid behavior worrys me with shrimp and maybe snails. So that might be a pass too

 

On 3/14/2023 at 8:10 PM, Guppysnail said:

My friend has macmasteri and one other type I don’t remember the name of. I’ve just not done Apisto or any cichlid other than my GBR so I was going with whatever fry he has at the time I’m ready to get my feet wet with them. 

Lucky! None of my friends are into fishkeeping. Sounds very nice

 

[DiscusLover]

On 3/14/2023 at 10:21 AM, Lennie said:

 

Would they make an okay tank mate in this tank, or would they potentially be bullies with this stocking? Have you ever kept them with shrimp and snails?

Amazing  looking fish 🙂

Mine are very small yet, like a half size of a honey gourami. I assume around 1 month old or so? 

All I see, for now, is they sometimes turn around each other in a circle trying to be bossy, and rarely shoo each other away by pecking and following for a short distance.

 

Thats normal for rams in general but be aware if its gets too extreme. 

On 3/14/2023 at 10:26 AM, Lennie said:

Mine can be black/blues too. I don't know really.

Idk if they are pure black as juveniles, but mine currently look like the juviniles of black and blues.

If both have similar juvenile phase, then I don't know.

they currently look like these:

Looks more blueblack then midnight

[Lennie]

On 3/14/2023 at 8:47 PM, DiscusLover said:

Thats normal for rams in general but be aware if its gets too extreme. 

I will keep an eye on them! It rarely happens for now.

Moving to a bigger tank soon will help even more I bet.

Other than that they usually socialize and spend time hanging out together

Edited March 14, 2023 by Lennie

[nabokovfan87]

Longer tanks, I think it's easier to divide them up and separate territories.  For taller tanks, I don't think it would work well to mix them up, given the limited area.  This is all relative to the size of the tank though.

In general terms, they occupy the same place in the tank and there is room for confrontation.  When breeding, they will have their area and no one is getting in.  It might be stressful on the parents if you have things mixed in that way and they feel like they have to be on guard and highly protective of their lay spots.  Apisto have their cave and should generally have an easier time of it, but if you have stations / setups for each species it can work.

I would only, personally, opt for one of them though.

Edited March 14, 2023 by nabokovfan87
punctuation

[anewbie]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:10 PM, Lennie said:

Do you have any online source that would give in depth detail about spefic apistos? Everything seems to be super generalised.

I would love to nerd some and learn more about the ones I like

Not really; you can find some species in mergus cichild atlas vol 1, 2 and toms website (tomc.no) but none of these resources really provide a whole lot of information. They mostly cover where they are caught and sometimes water conditions in those area. Occasionally tom makes a comment on aggression he observed but nothing very exhausted. You rarely find information (other than the common domestic ones like macs, hongsloi, borelli, agazii, cockatoo, ...) if they are pair forming or harem breeders (most are harem breeders). To make matters worse some of the less common species have changed names over the years making it more difficult to find user experience with them and on top of that a few of the species have multiple names...