Are some of your plants slackers?

[Tanked]

As a young fish keeper,  I bought a Banana Plant because it was super easy to grow. It wasn't.  As an old fish keeper, I tried again. After it dropped it's initial leaves, the "bananas" floated around for six months or more. they did not grow, nor did they rot.  It might still be in there somewhere.  At present I have a 2 year old Amazon Sword and a 1 year old Tiger Lotus bulb. The Sword will replace damaged leaves , but that is all.  The Tiger lotus dropped its first set of leaves and is now rootless as well.  One year later, the new leaves are the size of the head on a thumbtack and the entire plant easily fits inside the ACO shot glass.  I have tried anchoring the bulb down against the substrate, but it likes to travel.  I have also added the ACO light in the hopes of getting things moving.   Any thoughts?

• ACO light 30% 7 hours
• UGF and HOB
• 76-78 degrees
• 35-50 ppm Nitrate
• 6.6 PH
• 300+ GH
• 40 KH
• Easy Green Liquid weekly and half dose mid week. 
• Root Tabs occasionally.
• Lightly planted and stocked

 

[Mmiller2001]

That GH is pretty high, could be that. I would try fresh bulbs and see.

[Confetto]

Welcome to my tank.

I have two anubias - I believe one is a nana & the other might be a petite, a bucephalandra, a mystery plant that looks like hornwort and frogbit that my Betta enjoys pulling the roots off of. I've had my planted tank up and running since July 2022 and though I know I have slow growing plants, my goodness they are sloooow.  

I have noticed new roots on buce, and have had new leaves on the anubias but no real size growth. In one of the videos that Irene/Girl Talks Fish hosted, she said slow growing plants are slow to die so I guess the upside to this glacially slow landscape I have created is that in theory, it should be around a while. From other videos that I watched, perhaps the secret to super plant growth may be and CO2 injection. That is a commitment I'm not ready to take on myself. My goal was to have a planted countertop tank that shouldn't take a tremendous amount of time to upkeep. I have a simple natural environment for my betta and my snail to live their best lives.

[Tanked]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:31 PM, Confetto said:

Welcome to my tank.

I have two anubias - I believe one is a nana & the other might be a petite, a bucephalandra, a mystery plant that looks like hornwort and frogbit that my Betta enjoys pulling the roots off of. I've had my planted tank up and running since July 2022 and though I know I have slow growing plants, my goodness they are sloooow.  

I have noticed new roots on buce, and have had new leaves on the anubias but no real size growth. In one of the videos that Irene/Girl Talks Fish hosted, she said slow growing plants are slow to die so I guess the upside to this glacially slow landscape I have created is that in theory, it should be around a while. From other videos that I watched, perhaps the secret to super plant growth may be and CO2 injection. That is a commitment I'm not ready to take on myself. My goal was to have a planted countertop tank that shouldn't take a tremendous amount of time to upkeep. I have a simple natural environment for my betta and my snail to live their best lives.

They are definitely slow!  At this point I would like to see any growth.  None of the plants you mentioned require bright light or CO2.  I am playing with a passive CO2 setup, but I have no real interest. I have Anubia Nana, PSO, Wisteria and Elodea in a light and pest snail only countertop setup.  The Nana has put on 1 leaf in a month. I have also had Nana shut down for months after a cutting or algae treatment. The tank is almost zero maintenance, but your Betta would require a heater. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Tanked

Root growth, and overall growth, are effected by a number of factors including the water parameters and nutrient levels.

I have a couple of questions and a request please.
1)  Does the water come out of the tap at 300ppm hardness or is it the tank water that hard?
2)  Do you do weekly water changes?  What percentage do you change?

Can you please provide a pictures of plants in your tank, both healthy and suffering.

Thank you, -Roy

[Confetto]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:32 PM, Tanked said:

...your Betta would require a heater. 

I do. I have a preset heater that runs 76-78.

[knee]

What size is your tank?

[Tanked]

On 1/29/2023 at 7:59 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Tanked

Root growth, and overall growth, are effected by a number of factors including the water parameters and nutrient levels.

I have a couple of questions and a request please.
1)  Does the water come out of the tap at 300ppm hardness or is it the tank water that hard?
2)  Do you do weekly water changes?  What percentage do you change?

Can you please provide a pictures of plants in your tank, both healthy and suffering.

Thank you, -Roy

 

Hello @Seattle_Aquarist

The water comes out of the tap at 300ppm.  I'm thinking it is considerably harder.  Water changes are about 50% every other week.  Top offs are required about twice weekly. I know the tank is an Algae farm. This was part of the reason for switching away from a DIY light.  The ACO light has been in use for 3 weeks the aquarium setup is 4+ years.  The anubia is the same age.  The tallest is also the youngest. The lotus is sitting on top of the substrate and is rootless.  The sword is on the substrate, and rooted  The crypt in the foreground is as old  as the sword, The background crypts, lobelia, and cabomba, are 8 weeks.

 

On 1/30/2023 at 12:48 AM, knee said:

What size is your tank?

29 gallon

[knee]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:18 AM, Tanked said:

 

Hello @Seattle_Aquarist

The water comes out of the tap at 300ppm.  I'm thinking it is considerably harder.  Water changes are about 50% every other week.  Top offs are required about twice weekly. I know the tank is an Algae farm. This was part of the reason for switching away from a DIY light.  The ACO light has been in use for 3 weeks the aquarium setup is 4+ years.  The anubia is the same age.  The tallest is also the youngest. The lotus is sitting on top of the substrate and is rootless.  The sword is on the substrate, and rooted  The crypt in the foreground is as old  as the sword, The background crypts, lobelia, and cabomba, are 8 weeks.

 

29 gallon

Plants are not getting enough PAR with 30% power from the ACO light. Might need to bump it to 50% or whatever the next level is and observe for growth. If they're receiving enough PAR you'll see growth within a week or two.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:18 AM, Tanked said:

 

Hello @Seattle_Aquarist

The water comes out of the tap at 300ppm.  I'm thinking it is considerably harder.  Water changes are about 50% every other week.  Top offs are required about twice weekly. I know the tank is an Algae farm. This was part of the reason for switching away from a DIY light.  The ACO light has been in use for 3 weeks the aquarium setup is 4+ years.  The anubia is the same age.  The tallest is also the youngest. The lotus is sitting on top of the substrate and is rootless.  The sword is on the substrate, and rooted  The crypt in the foreground is as old  as the sword, The background crypts, lobelia, and cabomba, are 8 weeks.

 

 

29 gallon

Hi @Tanked

Looking at the lumen ratings of the ACO lights you may need to increase light intensity however I do not believe that is the major problem effecting plant growth.  Based upon the internodes of the Cabomba the stem/plant seems to be getting adequate light. 

Your 300 ppm of hardness, which is about 17 dGH, is considered 'hard' and likely all that hardness is calcium (Ca).  Based upon the puckering of the leaf margins of the older leaves of the Anubias there appears to be insufficient available magnesium (Mg).  High calcium levels effect the uptake of iron and low levels of magnesium would also account for the lack of chlorophyll in the leaves of the lily resulting in the light green overall coloration in spite of the more than adequate amount of available nitrate.

Here is what I suggest:
1)  Pick up some Easy Iron or Seachem Iron and start dosing it twice a week per the instructions on the label.

2)  Go to your local drug store and buy some Epsom Salt (MgSO4*7H2O / Magnesium sulfate).  Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with not additives, scents, etc.

3)  Do an initial dose to your tank of 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons.  It is non-toxic and can be added directly to the tank.  This will add a little over 5 ppm of Mg to your tank and increase your hardness by about 1.0 dGH.

4)  Please start doing the weekly water changes- with the high calcium levels in your tap water and the amount of evaporation you are experiencing it is causing minerals to build up in your tank.

5) Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change add 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of water removed.

6) Now the hard part..............................waiting.  Do the above for 4 weeks.  Watch the new leaves as they emerge on your plants; do not watch existing leaves they will not change appreciably.  Do the new leaves look healthier and greener?  You may also notice growth is quicker on your stem plants.  As the new leaves on the Anubias mature you should not see the 'puckering' you see now.

Let us know how it goes, hope this helps! -Roy

 

[PineSong]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:45 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Your 300 ppm of hardness, which is about 17 dGH, is considered 'hard' and likely all that hardness is calcium (Ca).  Based upon the puckering of the leaf margins of the older leaves of the Anubias there appears to be insufficient available magnesium (Mg).  High calcium levels effect the uptake of iron and low levels of magnesium would also account for the lack of chlorophyll in the leaves of the lily resulting in the light green overall coloration in spite of the more than adequate amount of available nitrate.
 

This is very interesting to me as I live in a limestone region and also have super hard water (out of the tap and in my tanks both read 300 on ACO strips), and my older anubias leaves may be exhibiting this puckering, too. I wasn't sure why they were looking like that. Thank you, @Seattle_Aquaristfor the detailed response.

I'm always puzzled by what I can and cannot grow well, or when things grow well for a year and then fade away. 

@Tanked, I hope you won't give up and you will find some plants that do well for you. I have always had some slacker plants. Right now it's Brazilian pennywort. I have one piece and it's about 3 inches long and has been 3 inches long for the past few months. 

The number of plants I have completely failed with is probably larger than the number I can grow well. I've failed with plants that others find easy: pogo octopus, crypt lucens, water sprite, staurogyne repens, bacopa, more than one hygrophila. I do plan to try some of them again. Luckily for me, aponogetons, corkscrew val, regular val, sagittaria, anubias, java fern (but only the wendelov variety), frogbit, guppy grass and amazon swords have done well. I hope you'll find the non-slackers for your tank and water and will be able to enjoy!

[bryanisag]

I have 300 plus ppm gh too and I have failed at many easy plants but some others do well so I just work with what works. I really want AC lights on ALL my tanks now! I have one on my 37 gallon that I crank all the way up because it's a tall tank but I want one on my 20 long because I think the annubius in there is getting too much light and I can't turn that light down... 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Tanked

Here are some species that others have had success with in hard water:
Ludwigia Arcuata
Ludwigia Repens
Ludwigia Rubin
Pearlweed
Dwarf Hairgrass
Tall Hairgrass
Buce sp.
Crypt. Wendtii (var. brown, green)
Crypt. Lucens
Pogostemon erectus (give it lots of time)
Limnophila Aromatica
Hydrocotyle Japan
Marsilea Hirsuta
Amazon Frobit
Water Wisteria
Anubias sp.
Java fern sp.
Java moss
Christmass moss
willow moss
peacock moss
Brazilian Pennywort
Syn. Sp. (including Manaus)
Bacopa Caroliana
Bacopa Monnieri
Stargrass
HHygrophila polysperma
Sagittaria subulata
Egeria densa
Pistia stratiotes
Duckweed
Echinodorus bleheri, ozelot
Crinum calamistratumygrophilia Corymbosa Compacta
Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides
Nymphaeaceae
Echinodorus grisebachii
Echinodorus amazonicus
Vallisneria sp.
Ludwigia Glandulosa (if not added already)Ludwigia palustris
Murdannia keisak
Rotala rotundifolia
Sagittaria subulata

[Tanked]

Thanks for the help and the plant list Roy.

I have been thinking about iron for a while now, and I need to go to the LFS anyway so iron is on the list.  I already have the Epsom Salt for this purpose, but have been hesitant to use it.  I 'll use your dosing, and time will tell.  Waiting is the easy part. 

Another Question:

A water sample measures 300+ ppm hardness.  If I cut it by 50% with RO water 4X, in order to get something on the chart. Is it reasonable to think that the original sample was closer to 1200ppm?  Am I just wasting test strips?

 

@kneeFor me, this is like starting over. The ACO light is my first adjustable light, so I thought that 30% would be a good starting point as the algae is already a serious issue.  The larger Cabomba has doubled its size in about 3 weeks.  The Lotus in the picture might have added an extra leaf or two. If the invisible Italian Val in the foreground emerges from the substrate, I will know I'm on the right track. 

@PineSongI have no intention of giving up. There are only 14 fails on my plant list.  I have brought Wisteria, Italian Val and PSO back from the brink in the project tank, with no water changes.  Conditions there should be much worse than in my 29. That's a puzzle. I hope to reintroduce them to the 29. 

 

@bryanisagAny kind of light diffuser will help until you get the ACO light

 

 

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Tanked

 

Quote

Another Question:

A water sample measures 300+ ppm hardness.  If I cut it by 50% with RO water 4X, in order to get something on the chart. Is it reasonable to think that the original sample was closer to 1200ppm?  Am I just wasting test strips?

Sorry, not sure if I understand your question.  -Roy

[Tanked]

On 2/1/2023 at 12:21 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Tanked

 

Sorry, not sure if I understand your question.  -Roy

My water is somewhere over 300ppm GH, the top range of ACO test strips. 

I begin with a 40ml sample.  I pour off 20ml (50%) of the sample and I replace it with 20ml of RO water.  I repeat this process, cutting the sample by 50% four or more times.  After the fourth cut I have a GH level of 25-75ppm.  4 x 300ppm = 1200ppm +-   Does this make sense, or am I going about this all wrong (wasting test strips)?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Tanked

(1) The first time you cut the water with 50% RO your GH should read 150 ppm and the "real" GH of your water is 150 X 2 = 300 pm

(2) If you cut the result in (1) above with 50% RO your GH should read 75 ppm and the "real" GH of your water is 75 X 4 = 300 ppm

(3) If you cut the result in (2) above with 50% RO your GH should read 37.5 ppm and the "real" GH of your water is 37.5 X 8 = 300 ppm

Does that answer your question? -Roy

Edited February 2, 2023 by Seattle_Aquarist

[Tanked]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:54 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Tanked

(1) The first time you cut the water with 50% RO your GH should read 150 ppm and the "real" GH of your water is 150 X 2 = 300 pm

(2) If you cut the result in (1) above with 50% RO your GH should read 75 ppm and the "real" GH of your water is 75 X 4 = 300 ppm

(3) If you cut the result in (2) above with 50% RO your GH should read 37.5 ppm and the "real" GH of your water is 37.5 X 8 = 300 ppm

Does that answer your question? -Roy

Yes, it confirms that I am wasting test strips!  Thanks Roy

[Fonske]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:14 AM, Tanked said:

Any thoughts?

Just observations from my tanks that might or not be helpful... I got better growth on many "easy" plants and got rid of ugly algae by reducing light (I have the cheapest non-plant growing lights and even those were too bright, apparently) and fertilizing daily. I also find that plants are healthier in heavily planted and heavily stocked tanks (when I had an emergency and had to put ~4"of fish per liter in one tank for a while - the plants went bananas in there, one amazon sword had to be pruned repeatedly to keep it in check).  Many plants don't like water movement. And I always find better growth in tanks with shrimp (and snails), not sure why. 

[Tanked]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:03 PM, Fonske said:

I got better growth on many "easy" plants and got rid of ugly algae by reducing light (I have the cheapest non-plant growing lights and even those were too bright, apparently)

 Plants that failed in the pictured tank above, are growing well in my poorly lit, snail only project tank. That tank was almost algae free.  In addition to @Seattle_Aquarist's suggestions, the plan for the the moment is to begin reintroducing those plants to the 29.  The Aquarium pictured above is not as bright to the human eye as the camera sees it.  At 30% the new ACO light is dimmer (to the eye) than the DIY lights previously on the aquarium.  Water movement is an interesting part of the puzzle. The Lotus bulb has more problems with water changes than the side mounted HOB.  I like the side mount enough to make a modification to accommodate the new light.  I may try adding shrimp again at some point. I briefly had Amanos, but at $7. each locally, they won't be replaced for a while.

[Fonske]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:55 PM, Tanked said:

Plants that failed in the pictured tank above, are growing well in my poorly lit, snail only project tank. That tank was almost algae free.  In addition to @Seattle_Aquarist's suggestions, the plan for the the moment is to begin reintroducing those plants to the 29.  The Aquarium pictured above is not as bright to the human eye as the camera sees it.  At 30% the new ACO light is dimmer (to the eye) than the DIY lights previously on the aquarium. 

Lights can be adjusted in unexpected ways...My tank below used to look like yours for a long time (or worse, everything covered in ugly brown and green algae, the plants struggling) until I added the piece of semi-translucent packaging foam on the lid (to keep the air warm there for the pearl gourami during the cold month). In a week or so, all the algae was magically gone and never returned ever since. The anubias got green and perky, the bacopa is poking through the lid all the time and the tiny crypts are still there despite not being root-fed for a long time. The foam worked on its twin-tank too. Was the effect due to the lower overall light intensity or because the foam cut off some algae-preferred part of the spectrum, I don't know, but I now treasure my foam :)

On the other hand, my amazon sword (same/similar narrow-leaf one as yours) used to "travel" from its place towards the sunlit part of the tank and was growing like crazy when the tank was getting a ton of fish food and poop. These days the same sword is doing ok semi-floating (roots just pinned to the floor by a stone) in a bare-bottom, poorly-lit tank with larger fishes...so my guess yours might be happier in a brighter tank with lots of fertilizer. 

Does your cabomba grow well in the snail tank? I never managed to have it pretty and gave up after reading that it prefers soft water (mine is hard too). 

[Tanked]

As of yesterday the tank received a serious cleaning and a 50% water change. Magnesium dosing has begun, and most of the algae covered leaves were removed. This led to the discovery of a Ramshorn🐌!   

@FonskeThe traveling Lotus has lost all of it's leaves again, and is now glued to a piece of gravel.  If this doesn't work, it will travel to the project tank to take its chances. Lighting has been something that keeps me guessing. I have just reintroduced a single Italian Val to the 29 that has been recovering in the project tank. It is the sole surviving Val that migrated to the front of the tank seeking sunlight, and ultimately failed.  This was part of my decision to buy my first "plant light".

Did the packing foam filter out the light preferred by algae? Who knows, but I like the idea. For a long time I had Hornwort or Elodea creating diffused lighting, but only the Anubia and snails appreciated it.

This is my first attempt at Cabomba.  It is too soon to tell if it will grow well in the project tank.  Everything in this tank grows painfully slow. The cutting is floating again this morning, but has some really fine roots so I will glue a piece of gravel to it and plant it again.