Marimo moss ball- bad hair day

[Knew tooth is]

I purchased a Marimo Moss Ball. It was a tidy, round ball of about an inch in diameter. Now, the "ball" is around 5 inches average diameter. The quotation marks and "average" indicate that the plant doesn't really resemble much of a ball, but it's like it has a very bad hair day, with pieces growing out here, there, and beyond. Is there a way to make the Marimo Moss Ball a tidy, large, ball? I'd rather not give it a haircut. Could one maybe grow it in a light penetrable bag? If so, what kind of bag would be recommended? Thanks.

[nabokovfan87]

Can you share a photo of what you have vs. what you'd want it to look like?

[Odd Duck]

On 1/4/2023 at 2:50 PM, Knew tooth is said:

I purchased a Marimo Moss Ball. It was a tidy, round ball of about an inch in diameter. Now, the "ball" is around 5 inches average diameter. The quotation marks and "average" indicate that the plant doesn't really resemble much of a ball, but it's like it has a very bad hair day, with pieces growing out here, there, and beyond. Is there a way to make the Marimo Moss Ball a tidy, large, ball? I'd rather not give it a haircut. Could one maybe grow it in a light penetrable bag? If so, what kind of bag would be recommended? Thanks.

Sometimes Marimo balls end up with some hair algae, too.  That might be what you’re seeing.  Pics are helpful.

Have you been rolling your Marimo ball regularly to keep it round?  You can potentially split/divide it into multiple smaller balls if it’s a true Marimo ball and bigger than you want it to be.  It has to be a true Marimo ball not just an algae or moss covered, artificial ball.  Some are formed around a variety of ball insides to get a larger size.

Marimo “moss” balls are actually an algae Aegagropila linnaei that form in specific conditions in certain cold water lakes, but they’ve become popular enough in the trade that they are now grown artificially.  They’ve become hard to find because some were found to be contaminated with zebra mussels and many had to be destroyed.  They are just starting to come back on the market.  Larger, true, clean, Marimo balls are quite expensive now, FYI.

[Knew tooth is]

Hi Odd Duck and Nabakovfan87- thanks for the responses. Attached is an image of the Moss Ball. I gently, with a net, took the "ball" out of the tank, and placed in a bowl of tank water, when I syphoned the mulm because the ball collects the debris. The fry like pecking at the ball, probably because it collects some food and maybe the algae (I didn't realize that the moss ball was a form of algae. thanks). I was wondering if I could get the Moss Ball to grow more evenly. I've been rotating the ball every week and a half to 2 weeks, at the time of water change.  Thanks.

[JJenna]

I wonder if you could get some netting (I was thinking something like an onion bag) and gather up the edges to shape it back into a ball. You can squeeze it and roll it around in your hands without squeezing too much water out. 

[Knew tooth is]

JJena- I was wondering, do you think that too much like a ball may prevent light from entering the inner core? Perhaps more log shaped? Related to this is that the strands of moss are somewhat fragile and have a tendency to break off if one isn't careful. Overall, though, I'm pleased that the moss is growing, that the fish like it, and it does have a free-form attractiveness of its own. So maybe it is what it is.

[Rube_Goldfish]

I've seen people split them open from ball shaped into a sort of flat mat, though I've never tried it myself (I got into the hobby right after the zebra mussel sales ban). A log shape would probably work.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Rube_Goldfish
Added parenthetical

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:09 AM, Knew tooth is said:

Hi Odd Duck and Nabakovfan87- thanks for the responses. Attached is an image of the Moss Ball. I gently, with a net, took the "ball" out of the tank, and placed in a bowl of tank water, when I syphoned the mulm because the ball collects the debris. The fry like pecking at the ball, probably because it collects some food and maybe the algae (I didn't realize that the moss ball was a form of algae. thanks). I was wondering if I could get the Moss Ball to grow more evenly. I've been rotating the ball every week and a half to 2 weeks, at the time of water change.  Thanks.

It looks like it's started to die off.  Are you dosing the tank with easy carbon or anything like that?  Keep rotating it, make sure the tank is getting enough light / ferts and then let us know how it's doing in a few weeks.  The fish are pecking at the dead plant matter, so that's just food for them. 

It should recover a little bit, give it time, check your water and all that.

I would also try to give the substrate a good siphon in that area of the tank.

[Knew tooth is]

Thanks for the tips, Nabakovfan87, on taking better care of the Marimo Moss Ball. I will be more regular on my upkeep.

Odd Duck, and others, because the moss ball isn't moss at all, but an algae, will a Chinese Algae eater eat it?

Rube-Goldfish- a mat is an interesting idea. I'll look for some pictures.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/6/2023 at 9:47 AM, Knew tooth is said:

Odd Duck, and others, because the moss ball isn't moss at all, but an algae, will a Chinese Algae eater eat it?

CAE's don't really go after algae.  Something like a rainbow shark, flying fox, SAE have different mouth shapes (same as a panda garra) and they will graze on the algae.  They won't eat the ball though, most times they go after aufwuchs and things on the moss.  When moss dies, most fish and shrimp will get rid of the dead tissue and leave the healthy sections.

[Odd Duck]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:09 AM, Knew tooth is said:

Hi Odd Duck and Nabakovfan87- thanks for the responses. Attached is an image of the Moss Ball. I gently, with a net, took the "ball" out of the tank, and placed in a bowl of tank water, when I syphoned the mulm because the ball collects the debris. The fry like pecking at the ball, probably because it collects some food and maybe the algae (I didn't realize that the moss ball was a form of algae. thanks). I was wondering if I could get the Moss Ball to grow more evenly. I've been rotating the ball every week and a half to 2 weeks, at the time of water change.  Thanks.

That’s got some hair algae in it, see how some of it branches?  Marimo “moss” does not branch at all that I’ve ever seen.  Or it may branch at the very base, but it doesn’t beach at the ends.  It is very consistent texture and fairly consistent height.  I had some Marimo “moss” get on a piece of wood once and each bit of “moss” was a single, very tiny, thin thread of algae.  It formed a nearly smooth carpet across the wood that only tapered down at the margins.

I’m pretty sure you’ve got hair algae in your moss ball.  The good news, is that you can potentially save your moss ball.  Marimo moss is apparently fairly resistant to reverse respiration treatment (like black beard algae) but hair algae isn’t resistant.  I would NOT treat the entire moss ball at once since we haven’t yet determined exact treatment times for hair algae vs Marimo algae.  I would plan on breaking it into 3-4 pieces and you can do your own research project and refine our knowledge a bit more!  I would treat one section a soak it in seltzer water, in the dark, for about 6-8 hours, then return it to a lit tank.  Wait a few days and see if the hair algae part (the “ragged” looking, branchy bits start looking red, pink, grey, or white.  Discoloration is a sign of the algae dying.

If you don’t see any discoloration of the hair algae, then try treating again for the same time frame.  If still no discoloration, then you may need to treat longer.  If you still see good green color in the deeper parts of the ball and the less organized bits are dying, then you probably know the right time frame.  If you’re still feeling brave, I would try treating the next section of Marimo ball longer if the first section needs 2 treatments.  I would push out to 10 hours of treatment and see how things look after a couple days.  The hair algae may even turn color quicker than a couple days.

If you have to do a second treatment on the 10 hour ball, if the base ball still has good green color, then consider doing a 12 hour treatment on another piece of ball.  If another treatment is needed, then go to 14 hours, etc.  I think somewhere in the RR thread we decided it takes somewhere between 12-18 hours treatment to kill BBA, but I can’t guarantee that it would take 18 hours to kill the Marimo algae.  Hence, the stepwise treatments or repeating treatments at the same time frame since that sometimes kills algae when a single treatment doesn’t.

If you don’t want to risk your entire Marimo ball (which could already be dying inside the hair algae), then treating only sections of it could find you the perfect time for killing hair algae without killing Marimo algae.  Then it would likely be safer to treat the rest of the ball.

[JJenna]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:04 PM, Knew tooth is said:

too much like a ball may prevent light from entering

Yes, you are right, I should have clarified better how to shape it using mesh. I'm going to use a cooking analogy. Have you ever made meatballs? The best tasting meatballs are made by handling the mixture as little as possible. I cup my hands around the mixture and with as little pressure as possible I roll them into their round shape. I was envisioning doing this to the moss ball, the mesh would act as something to contain the ball. 

 

[Knew tooth is]

JJena, meatballs- good (and hungry) analogy. Looks like from the other comments I might be forming hair algae meatballs. First step is to make hairless meatballs, so to speak.

JJena, meatballs- good (and hungry) analogy. Looks like from the other comments I might be forming hair algae meatballs. First step is to make hairless meatballs, so to speak.

[Knew tooth is]

Odd Duck and Nabakovfan87: lot's of food for thought.

Odd Duck- I notice that you didn't mention Easy Carbon. Is there a reason why you may not favor this chemical approach? Experiment with Seltzer water would be of interest. Certainly worth a bit of the hair algae-moss ball.

Nabakovfan87- I do have Easy Carbon, but have not been using it. While the glutaraldehyde reportedly doesn't hurt fish, would it be safe to use when fry are present? Seems like the fry would be more susceptible to negative effects, as if one were overdosing. Any ideas on where one might start out with dosing?

How about nerite snails? I viewed Cory's blog and perhaps these creatures would be helpful, taking a ride while eating. I'll see if I can get a SAE from my LFS (getting a couple of these abbreviations in).  

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:47 PM, Knew tooth is said:

Rube-Goldfish- a mat is an interesting idea. I'll look for some pictures.

At the 12:00 mark on this MD Fishtanks shrimp build video on YouTube, you can see him reshape his Marimo balls in the way I'm describing:

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/7/2023 at 3:19 PM, Knew tooth is said:

Nabakovfan87- I do have Easy Carbon, but have not been using it. While the glutaraldehyde reportedly doesn't hurt fish, would it be safe to use when fry are present? Seems like the fry would be more susceptible to negative effects, as if one were overdosing. Any ideas on where one might start out with dosing?

It might negatively impast the marimo moss, that's why I was asking.  So good to know.  I wouldn't use it right now until you have a grasp on things causing the issue.

On 1/7/2023 at 5:56 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

At the 12:00 mark on this MD Fishtanks shrimp build video on YouTube, you can see him reshape his Marimo balls in the way I'm describing:

Little rock wigs, 😂. Glad to see someone do this!

Edited January 8, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Odd Duck]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:19 PM, Knew tooth is said:

Odd Duck and Nabakovfan87: lot's of food for thought.

Odd Duck- I notice that you didn't mention Easy Carbon. Is there a reason why you may not favor this chemical approach? Experiment with Seltzer water would be of interest. Certainly worth a bit of the hair algae-moss ball.

Nabakovfan87- I do have Easy Carbon, but have not been using it. While the glutaraldehyde reportedly doesn't hurt fish, would it be safe to use when fry are present? Seems like the fry would be more susceptible to negative effects, as if one were overdosing. Any ideas on where one might start out with dosing?

How about nerite snails? I viewed Cory's blog and perhaps these creatures would be helpful, taking a ride while eating. I'll see if I can get a SAE from my LFS (getting a couple of these abbreviations in).  

I don’t know what Easy Carbon would do to the moss balls.  We do have some experience trying to treat the BBA, which is proving to be challenging.  Marimo algae is related to BBA, which is pretty much the only reason I’ve suggest the Reverse Respiration technique.  I’m not sure what page it’s on, maybe @Guppysnailremembers, but somewhere in here there’s some discussion about how long it takes to knock out BBA. I would expect the Marimo algae to have at least somewhat similar resistance to seltzer damage but it might be tricky to find just the right amount of seltzer damage to hair algae vs too much damage to Marimo algae.  That’s the lone we need to find and here you are with potentially the ideal, ahem, “test subject”.  😉 

 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Odd Duck
Always the typos. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[Guppysnail]

When I tested I went hour by hour doing microscope shots to determine BBA death. 5 hours was my magic number but there are different bba strains apparently. 12 hours should do the trick. Marimo was RR resistant and required several treatments to kill marimo or seltzer to alkaline water to kill marimo rather than plain aerated water. 
I imagine the ph shift that kills it is also dependent on your tap ph. My aerated tap is 8-8.4. If your aerated tap /tank water is a lower ph it will be less damaging and may take several treatments. 
Hope that helps. 
@Odd Duck I remember all the threads I think are interesting but specific page number???  🤣 no photographic memory here.  
 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Guppysnail

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 1/7/2023 at 1:31 AM, Odd Duck said:

I’m pretty sure you’ve got hair algae in your moss ball.  The good news, is that you can potentially save your moss ball.  Marimo moss is apparently fairly resistant to reverse respiration treatment (like black beard algae) but hair algae isn’t resistant.  I would NOT treat the entire moss ball at once since we haven’t yet determined exact treatment times for hair algae vs Marimo algae.  I would plan on breaking it into 3-4 pieces and you can do your own research project and refine our knowledge a bit more!  I would treat one section a soak it in seltzer water, in the dark, for about 6-8 hours, then return it to a lit tank.  Wait a few days and see if the hair algae part (the “ragged” looking, branchy bits start looking red, pink, grey, or white.  Discoloration is a sign of the algae dying.

If you don’t see any discoloration of the hair algae, then try treating again for the same time frame.  If still no discoloration, then you may need to treat longer.  If you still see good green color in the deeper parts of the ball and the less organized bits are dying, then you probably know the right time frame.  If you’re still feeling brave, I would try treating the next section of Marimo ball longer if the first section needs 2 treatments.  I would push out to 10 hours of treatment and see how things look after a couple days.  The hair algae may even turn color quicker than a couple days.

If you have to do a second treatment on the 10 hour ball, if the base ball still has good green color, then consider doing a 12 hour treatment on another piece of ball.  If another treatment is needed, then go to 14 hours, etc.  I think somewhere in the RR thread we decided it takes somewhere between 12-18 hours treatment to kill BBA, but I can’t guarantee that it would take 18 hours to kill the Marimo algae.  Hence, the stepwise treatments or repeating treatments at the same time frame since that sometimes kills algae when a single treatment doesn’t.

If you don’t want to risk your entire Marimo ball (which could already be dying inside the hair algae), then treating only sections of it could find you the perfect time for killing hair algae without killing Marimo algae.  Then it would likely be safer to treat the rest of the ball.

On 1/8/2023 at 5:26 AM, Guppysnail said:

When I tested I went hour by hour doing microscope shots to determine BBA death. 5 hours was my magic number but there are different bba strains apparently. 12 hours should do the trick. Marimo was RR resistant and required several treatments to kill marimo or seltzer to alkaline water to kill marimo rather than plain aerated water. 
I imagine the ph shift that kills it is also dependent on your tap ph. My aerated tap is 8-8.4. If your aerated tap /tank water is a lower ph it will be less damaging and may take several treatments. 
Hope that helps. 
@Odd Duck I remember all the threads I think are interesting but specific page number???  🤣 no photographic memory here.  
 

@Knew tooth is, we were (especially me) surprised that Marimo's were remarkably resistant to RR but @Guppysnail 's testing on timing for RR's algicidal effects pretty much applied to most of the other types of algae. I felt I needed to know if Marimo's had some kind of immunity or were simply denser. I put them through 4 consecutive RR treatments before I saw any cellular damage in the Marimo's. They appeared ragged and paler after 4 days. A few browned and died and a few recovered.

Ironically Marimo's took to seltzer much the same way as aquarium plants. one RR round and they became greener and stiffer and under a microscope, we saw a bizarre increase in the chloroplast count which still confounds me. I saw no damage at all until they were soaked 4X or 96 hours. @Odd Duck and @Guppysnail have much more experience with RR as an algicide than I do but I think (please correct me if I'm wrong here guys) that they found no algae forms yet that would survive 2+ RR treatments?

As a tangential note, we are not alone! The first group tested Marimo's in carbonated water of varying strengths in an attempt to eliminate the infamous zebra mussel. Pesticides and poisons were only partially successful. I assume this to be the protective ability of the mussel, not unlike our experiences with MTS, but as we saw with MTS, the seltzer pressure overcomes this, and they saw 100% efficacy in extermination of zebras after 96 hours:

Use of carbon dioxide in zebra mussel (Dreissena polymorpha) control and safety to a native freshwater mussel

And much less scientific but telling as these people don't seem to know why it works but they soak their Marimo's in club soda because they say it makes them grow better, asserting "a photosynthetic boost":

Using Club Soda (CO2) to Help Boost Marimo Photosynthesis - MossBall.com

Either way, it seems very safe to apply 2-3 RR treatments on Marimo's and that should eliminate the unwanted algae. Again guys, jump in if I'm wrong as I've not done as much testing on algae as you have. 

[kendrq]

I have to weekly roll my balls around to keep it even otherwise they turn yellow. They don't really need plant food. If you have a stocked tank that should do it. I started with 1 a couple years ago and have already split it 3 times 

Edited January 8, 2023 by kendrq

[Knew tooth is]

Dear Rube_Goldfish: saw the moss ball being superglued to the wood. once the hair algae-moss ball gets rid of the former component, fingers crossed, I can implement something like this (except for the British accent).

[Knew tooth is]

Thanks all. And nice picture, kendrq. Something to work towards, along with exercising the weekly (egg) role.

Looks like, for a quarter of the growth, Club Soda for a couple hours and in the dark. I don't usually drink this way (JK). But if it works, it works. Worth a try to donate some mixer to the cause.

pH is more on the acidic side. So, as I read, perhaps even a more selective -cidal effect on the hair algae. 

Now I'm curious if the entire greenery is hair ball (as in, my cat's hair ball). We'll see if it whittle downs to the size of a pea or, for that matter, split pea.

A cliff hanger, but stay tuned.

Thanks for all the input.

[Guppysnail]

On 1/8/2023 at 2:45 PM, Knew tooth is said:

Club Soda for a couple hours and in the dark

We used plain seltzer for testing. Club soda does have some salt. Others have used it on some things without issue. I could not find seltzer last week so used club soda on Val new sprouts I was moving to a project tank. The club soda killed the new Val sprouts. But that’s not definitive because they may have not been big enough or strong enough yet it was a chain of 4 1.5 inch tall. 
On tough Marimo it’s probably fine but I wanted to make you away. Good luck. 

[Mary W.]

My moss ball looked like that, some algae growing on top and a bit mushy.  I followed a suggestion in an online source and rinsed it off in cold tap water, then put it in a cup of water in the refrigerator for 24H.  It really perked it up, so now I do that every few weeks.  I've used plain seltzer water a couple of times and it seemed to like that as well.  Evidently the lakes they grow in naturally are in colder climates (northern Japan, Iceland, etc), and also they are constantly gently rolling around so not picking up stuff as they might in our tanks.  So you might consider that.  Good luck with it!

[Knew tooth is]

Dear Mary W.- "refrigerator therapeutics". Sounds good. I'll give this method a shot, too. Current update: Couldn't find Seltzer in the nearby grocery so went for Diet Tonic Water. It's been about a week post-treatment. The treated hair ball portion has turned a lighter green. Could be due to death of the hair algae, consistent with observations from Forum contributors. Hopefully, under the mop is some sort of Moss Ball. The "control" hair ball, that is, untreated, looks the same as it did a week ago, not unexpectedly. In any case, more rolling and refrigeration on the agenda. Thanks for your input. And, of course, glad your moss ball is all perked up, ready for Prom.