Water Chemistry and Porcupine Scales

[FyaNyan]

Hi. Today I noticed my goldfish has very slight porcupining scales, which I assume means bloating. I immediately tested my water and I got the following results.

ammonia = 0.25 ppm

nitrite = 0 ppm

nitrate = 0 ppm

I was a bit confused by the results because I’ve had the tank up for several months, so it should be cycled by now. There is algae growth among other things that signal a cycled tank.

Anyway, I haven’t done a water change in a while, so I will do that. But do you think the ammonia is what’s causing the bloating? I am very worried for the fish! I had another goldfish that died from dropsy, so I truly hope I caught this soon enough to reverse the effects!

[Guppysnail]

You say you have not done a water change in awhile. Goldfish tanks are typically not real heavily planted so a 0 nitrate reading is odd. (If your is heavily planted some of this info may not apply)
what test are you using? 
If you are using api liquid are you shaking the nitrate test solution bottle and test tube properly both times as the instructions say? If not it produces a zero reading. If you have done several tests out of those bottles improperly it will skew all other readings. 
If you are using strips I recommend trying a different type or getting Aquarium Coop strips or taking water to a local fish shop for testing. 
Pineconing is a symptom of many different issues so that alone cannot diagnose your fish however most of the causes for those different things start with poor water quality. 
@Colu or @Odd Duckis who I would ask for med info but definitely start with salt to help your kiddo out. Large water change is appropriate also including more regular water changes. 
edit to clarify: do not use table salt use aquarium salt aco has levels to treat with in their blog. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Guppysnail

[FyaNyan]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:21 AM, Guppysnail said:

You say you have not done a water change in awhile. Goldfish tanks are typically not real heavily planted so a 0 nitrate reading is odd. (If your is heavily planted some of this info may not apply)
what test are you using? 
If you are using api liquid are you shaking the nitrate test solution bottle and test tube properly both times as the instructions say? If not it produces a zero reading. If you have done several tests out of those bottles improperly it will skew all other readings. 
If you are using strips I recommend trying a different type or getting Aquarium Coop strips or taking water to a local fish shop for testing. 
Pineconing is a symptom of many different issues so that alone cannot diagnose your fish however most of the causes for those different things start with poor water quality. 
@Colu or @Odd Duckis who I would ask for med info but definitely start with salt to help your kiddo out. Large water change is appropriate also including more regular water changes. 
edit to clarify: do not use table salt use aquarium salt aco has levels to treat with in their blog. 

0 nitrate is odd. I have several Anubius plants, but I wouldn’t call that heavily planted.

I am using API liquid test kit. I added the drops and shook the test tubes exactly as the instructions said. That’s part of why I was confused.

Also, to clarify, my other fish that died of dropsy was in different conditions and a different tank. That is not connected with this situation. I realize I didn’t make that clear.

I have aquarium salt and kanaplex. I believe @Colu gave me some instructions on medication last time. I will move the sick fish into quarantine and start treatment. I will also do a 75% water change on the display tank so that if there is a water chemistry issue, it won’t affect the other goldfish who lives in that tank.

[Guppysnail]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:10 AM, FyaNyan said:

added the drops and shook the test tubes exactly as the instructions said.

Did you shake the solution bottle for at least 30 seconds before putting the drops in the test tube?  I forget that more often than I care to admit. 

[Colu]

Also can your take a picture as raised scales can be caused by a number of things constipation kidney disease causing excessive fluid buildup poor water quality 

[The endler guy]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:10 AM, FyaNyan said:

0 nitrate is odd. I have several Anubius plants, but I wouldn’t call that heavily planted.

I am using API liquid test kit. I added the drops and shook the test tubes exactly as the instructions said. That’s part of why I was confused.

Also, to clarify, my other fish that died of dropsy was in different conditions and a different tank. That is not connected with this situation. I realize I didn’t make that clear.

I have aquarium salt and kanaplex. I believe @Colu gave me some instructions on medication last time. I will move the sick fish into quarantine and start treatment. I will also do a 75% water change on the display tank so that if there is a water chemistry issue, it won’t affect the other goldfish who lives in that tank.

i had 0nitrates once, i had lots of algae, used easy green and that fixed both problems

[FyaNyan]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:12 AM, Guppysnail said:

Did you shake the solution bottle for at least 30 seconds before putting the drops in the test tube?  I forget that more often than I care to admit. 

I added drops of solution #1, shook for 30 seconds, added drops of solution #2, shook for 1 minute. Let rest for 5 minutes. Was I supposed to shake the actual bottle before adding to the rest tube? I did not do that.

[Guppysnail]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:35 AM, FyaNyan said:

I added drops of solution #1, shook for 30 seconds, added drops of solution #2, shook for 1 minute. Let rest for 5 minutes. Was I supposed to shake the actual bottle before adding to the rest tube? I did not do that.

Yes you have to shake the bottle before using it for 30 seconds or more vigorously or it gives you a zero result. 

The reagent cakes in the bottom of the bottle 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Guppysnail

[FyaNyan]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:42 AM, Guppysnail said:

Yes you have to shake the bottle before using it or it gives you a zero result. 

Ah there we go. I bet nitrates are the cause. I added another goldfish a while ago, and I must not be doing enough water changes to accommodate them both.

Edited December 14, 2022 by FyaNyan

[Odd Duck]

Unfortunately, if you have been running the test without adequately shaking the solution bottle, then the concentration of your test solution is now skewed and all further tests are inaccurate.  You will need new bottles to run the test accurately now.

Please clarify how often you are changing water, what size tank, how many fish of what kind, how big are they, etc.  More details allows us to develop a better picture of the conditions in your tank and any advice will be more accurate than guessing, which is where we are right now.  Pictures of the tank and fish are helpful, as well.  If you have some test strips, those will be enough to get a start on figuring out next steps.

Definitely add some salt since goldfish tend to like that anyway.  Start low at just 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons until we figure out some more details.

[FyaNyan]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:51 AM, Odd Duck said:

Unfortunately, if you have been running the test without adequately shaking the solution bottle, then the concentration of your test solution is now skewed and all further tests are inaccurate.  You will need new bottles to run the test accurately now.

Please clarify how often you are changing water, what size tank, how many fish of what kind, how big are they, etc.  More details allows us to develop a better picture of the conditions in your tank and any advice will be more accurate than guessing, which is where we are right now.  Pictures of the tank and fish are helpful, as well.  If you have some test strips, those will be enough to get a start on figuring out next steps.

Definitely add some salt since goldfish tend to like that anyway.  Start low at just 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons until we figure out some more details.

Ok, I thought it was the test tube that needed to be shook. I guess I didn’t understand the instructions. I will add salt and get some test strips.

Some information I can give now:

• 40g breeder

• lightly planted tank

• 1 oranda goldfish (4 inches) And 1 fantail goldfish (6 inches)

• I feed a small pinch of omega one goldfish pellets every other day

• I don’t have a water change schedule, but I haven’t done a water change in at least two or more weeks. I want to do at least a 50-75% every week from now on. My angelfish tank I do 50% every few weeks and they seem fine, but there’s tons of plants in there. Goldfish produce more waste so I know I should be doing a change every week. I was having mental health problems so I haven’t been doing as much as I should. But I want to fix that. I actually got rid of a BN Pleco tank because I could not keep up with maintenance.  

I will send pictures when I can.

Edited December 14, 2022 by FyaNyan

[Odd Duck]

If you only have the 2 goldfish in a 40 breeder, I would consider that lightly stocked at this point with the sizes you listed, which is great!  Very helpful info.

Yes, not shaking the solution bottle enough is by far the most common mistake people make with the test kits.  It’s why others know to ask about that.  You can get replacement bottles for just the nitrate test for less than the cost of replacing the whole kit but usually you have to order online since it can be difficult to find that kit locally.

I completely understand about struggling with keeping up on water changes since I struggle with that myself.  I have a wacky schedule at times, plus I get frustrated with use of when things aren’t going how I want “I’ve been keeping fish since 1975, why isn’t this working?” and I get mad at myself for not doing better.  I’m the first to admit that I don’t follow my own advice very well.  It’s one of the reasons I do heavily planted tanks.  It gives me more leeway on my water changes when I just can’t get my 60 year old bod out of the chair to do the water changes after a few long, stressful shifts in a row.

It sounds like you have a solid plan now, so keep us posted on any changes as you institute your regular water change plan, keep low dose salt (dose only for the amount of water you replace since the salt doesn’t evaporate, it’s only removed by water changes), and get the meds in the water.  Oh, I forgot to ask, did you treat the tank water or put the Kanaplex in the food?  Kanaplex is not significantly absorbed orally so there’s no point in putting it into the food.  It’s one that needs to be used in the water unless it’s a purely gastrointestinal problem you’re aiming at.  It’s a great antibiotic but might not be my first choice in this situation.  I’d tend toward metronidazole (Metroplex) in the food or Maracyn 2 (minocycline).

[FyaNyan]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:36 AM, Odd Duck said:

If you only have the 2 goldfish in a 40 breeder, I would consider that lightly stocked at this point with the sizes you listed, which is great!  Very helpful info.

Yes, not shaking the solution bottle enough is by far the most common mistake people make with the test kits.  It’s why others know to ask about that.  You can get replacement bottles for just the nitrate test for less than the cost of replacing the whole kit but usually you have to order online since it can be difficult to find that kit locally.

I completely understand about struggling with keeping up on water changes since I struggle with that myself.  I have a wacky schedule at times, plus I get frustrated with use of when things aren’t going how I want “I’ve been keeping fish since 1975, why isn’t this working?” and I get mad at myself for not doing better.  I’m the first to admit that I don’t follow my own advice very well.  It’s one of the reasons I do heavily planted tanks.  It gives me more leeway on my water changes when I just can’t get my 60 year old bod out of the chair to do the water changes after a few long, stressful shifts in a row.

It sounds like you have a solid plan now, so keep us posted on any changes as you institute your regular water change plan, keep low dose salt (dose only for the amount of water you replace since the salt doesn’t evaporate, it’s only removed by water changes), and get the meds in the water.  Oh, I forgot to ask, did you treat the tank water or put the Kanaplex in the food?  Kanaplex is not significantly absorbed orally so there’s no point in putting it into the food.  It’s one that needs to be used in the water unless it’s a purely gastrointestinal problem you’re aiming at.  It’s a great antibiotic but might not be my first choice in this situation.  I’d tend toward metronidazole (Metroplex) in the food or Maracyn 2 (minocycline).

Thanks for the reply! It’s good to know I’m not the only one struggling with water changes. I don’t have a sink near enough to use hoses, so I have to do bucket water changes. It’s very exhausting after doing manual labor outside all day!

I have not added any kanaplex yet, but when I used it last time, I put it directly in the water. I don’t have metroplex or maracyn 2 on hand. I have regular maracyn, but I don’t think that will work. I’ll order some meds. Would you suggest maraplex or maracyn 2 more? Or should I get both for future?

Also, are you advising to dose the main tank with meds and salt and not move the sick fish into QT?

Edited December 14, 2022 by FyaNyan

[JJenna]

If I'm hijacking the thread I apologize...but a couple of you have talked about the struggle with water changes. I can no longer pick up a 5 gal jug to shoulder height. I have an R/O system that only has a 2 gal tank and it takes a couple of hours to recharge. I always have 2.5 gals ready. My question is...If I do smaller water changes over the course of several days that total 30% is that the same as doing it all at once? The math logic to answer this is escaping me. I know it won't be the same as doing it all at once because over several days I would just be diluting existing water less. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by JJenna

[Guppysnail]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:30 PM, JJenna said:

If I'm hijacking the thread I apologize...but a couple of you have talked about the struggle with water changes. I can no longer pick up a 5 gal jug to shoulder height. I have an R/O system that only has a 2 gal tank and it takes a couple of hours to recharge. I always have 2.5 gals ready. My question is...If I do smaller water changes over the course of several days that total 30% is that the same as doing it all at once? The math logic to answer this is escaping me. I know it won't be the same as doing it all at once because over several days I would just be diluting existing water less. 

Try it. Test your water throughout the week using the new smaller way. Over the course of a few weeks you will know if that is enough to keep your nitrates down. I would start with 1 large one so you are not playing catch up. Good luck I hope it does well for you. 

[JJenna]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:39 PM, Guppysnail said:

ry it. Test your water throughout the week using the new smaller way

I have been doing it but more in an effort to stabilize my gh/kh after my over-correction. I've never had nitrates, but I've had success in bringing my GH down slowly into a normal range. 

 

On 12/14/2022 at 10:06 AM, FyaNyan said:

40g breeder

That's the size of mine as well and I can relate to the water change struggle as well. 

[FyaNyan]

Should I move the goldfish into QT or dose the main tank with salt and meds? What usually works better for a tank my size, and what stresses out the fish the least?

[FyaNyan]

Should I move the goldfish into QT or dose the main tank with salt and meds? What usually works better for a tank my size, and what stresses out the fish the least?

I bought test strips and tested the nitrates of some of the water I saved to see what was wrong with it. It looked to be zero or near zero. I’m very confused.

[FyaNyan]

Update. I noticed the sick fish has some small fibers hanging off of it on various parts of the body. They kind of wiggle as it moves back and forth. Is this just fish slime? Or could it be something more sinister? Both fish have it. I tried to upload the video of the fibers, but it said it can’t do videos. Does anyone know how to upload videos?

Edited December 14, 2022 by FyaNyan

[Odd Duck]

On 12/14/2022 at 11:29 AM, FyaNyan said:

Thanks for the reply! It’s good to know I’m not the only one struggling with water changes. I don’t have a sink near enough to use hoses, so I have to do bucket water changes. It’s very exhausting after doing manual labor outside all day!

I have not added any kanaplex yet, but when I used it last time, I put it directly in the water. I don’t have metroplex or maracyn 2 on hand. I have regular maracyn, but I don’t think that will work. I’ll order some meds. Would you suggest maraplex or maracyn 2 more? Or should I get both for future?

Also, are you advising to dose the main tank with meds and salt and not move the sick fish into QT?

It’s nearly always best to move the sick fish out of a community tank and into quarantine for treatment because it makes it much easier to tell if they’re eating, you don’t dose fish that don’t need medication, it is less expensive to dose a smaller tank, you don’t mess up the main tank’s biofiltration.  Some exceptions would be if the affected fish would be excessively challenging to catch, or if multiple fish are showing signs of illness, sometimes it’s worth treating the whole tank.  If it’s intestinal parasites, treat the whole tank since those will infect multiple species.

Any chance you can get a video of the fibers?

You can add salt to the whole tank since goldfish do well with salt to the point that some people always keep some salt in their goldfish tank.  I wouldn’t routinely use antibiotics in the whole tank unless it is warranted.

[Guppysnail]

On 12/14/2022 at 5:20 PM, FyaNyan said:

Does anyone know how to upload videos?

Upload to YouTube it’s super easy step by step instructions…if I can do it anyone can I’m tech illiterate. Then post a YouTube link here. 
Good luck with the fish. 

[FyaNyan]

On 12/14/2022 at 6:01 PM, Odd Duck said:

It’s nearly always best to move the sick fish out of a community tank and into quarantine for treatment because it makes it much easier to tell if they’re eating, you don’t dose fish that don’t need medication, it is less expensive to dose a smaller tank, you don’t mess up the main tank’s biofiltration.  Some exceptions would be if the affected fish would be excessively challenging to catch, or if multiple fish are showing signs of illness, sometimes it’s worth treating the whole tank.  If it’s intestinal parasites, treat the whole tank since those will infect multiple species.

Any chance you can get a video of the fibers?

You can add salt to the whole tank since goldfish do well with salt to the point that some people always keep some salt in their goldfish tank.  I wouldn’t routinely use antibiotics in the whole tank unless it is warranted.

This makes sense. I’ll move him into QT. Should I try kanaplex first? Or should I order maracyn 2 or metroplex (that will be a few days for it to arrive). My LFS did not have either, but they had the API liquid nitrate test, so I bought that and will dispose of my old one.

I did a 60% water change today, and added salt and prime conditioner to the main tank, as the benefits of salt seem good. I will try and do at least a small water change every day or two just to cycle out the old water in the main tank. It’s still odd that the nitrates were at zero. I’m not convinced they truly were. I will also add salt to the QT tank.

I’ll try to post a video soon.

[FyaNyan]

Here is a video. Look near the gill. There is something flopping around. Immediately after I filmed this is fell off, so maybe it’s just sludge from the aquatic environment. By the way, this is Percy, the fish that doesn’t appear to be sick (as in no pineconing).

https://youtu.be/8Xz9T-OqLsk

[Odd Duck]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:37 PM, FyaNyan said:

Here is a video. Look near the gill. There is something flopping around. Immediately after I filmed this is fell off, so maybe it’s just sludge from the aquatic environment. By the way, this is Percy, the fish that doesn’t appear to be sick (as in no pineconing).

https://youtu.be/8Xz9T-OqLsk

Thanks for the video.  That doesn’t look like a parasite, fortunately.  It seems likely to be a bit of mucus/slime coat and because it fell off so readily, I’m reasonably certain it isn’t anything to worry about.

Do you think you could get a video of the wispy stuff on the other side of the fish in the photo you posted?  That’s looks like potential fungal infection.  I need a better look if you can get it.

Oh, and go ahead and dose with the Kanaplex again.

[FyaNyan]

The wispy stuff comes and leaves, and is gone now, so I’m guessing it was more slime coat/mucus and hopefully nothing to worry about.

Ludwig (sick fish) is looking less bloated after adding salt. I’ll keep you updated if anything changes during the kanaplex dosing.