med trio and anchor worms

[Tabeth]

Hey everyone.  I really, really need some advice and help, please.  I've asked some questions earlier and I've still not combated these worms. Red worms (cam), white tape worm, and ANCHOR WORMS. I'm getting panicked and need some advice. I want to treat him asap.  Using my microscope I found a million anchor worms two days ago. 

I've done 5 treatments of general cure for the last month or so. I didn't know about the anchor worms. Should I use the trio and something for the anchor worms? I only have access to Microbe-life lice and anchor worm treatment. The main ingredients look the same.

I've removed the substrate/sand because I cannot believe how many were there.

his surface breathing symptom started a couple months ago. I've had him for 2 years. 40 gallon, prime..

He has been losing scales for months

then a month or two....Breathing on top.

I saw white worms out his mouth one night. Advised to get Fritz expel p and did several treatments a couple months ago.

I've tried paraguard, general cure, fritz expel P, (xtra O2), 2 epsom salt baths, and the salt in his tank is 1 tbslp per 2 gallons

Yesterday was the 5th treatment of general cure (I didn't know about the anchor worms)

He is active and eating and hasn't been surface breathing until right now as I type this. Maybe I stirred around all the worms in the sand. 

(I got a betta last fall, didn't quarantine and i'm sure transferred the worms)

Thanks for listening. I don't have fish people!

I will update with water parameters and pics....

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Tabeth

[Colu]

Anchor worms  inbed in the side of your fish do they look this have you got a picture of the fish 

[Tabeth]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:03 PM, Colu said:

Anchor worms  inbed in the side of your fish do they look this have you got a picture of the fish 

They don’t look like that. 

[Colu]

I think the best course of action with the symptoms your describing with the white worms coming out of there mouth would be to do a course of fenbendazole in food  feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days @jazmin

Edited August 9, 2022 by Colu

[Tabeth]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:54 PM, Colu said:

I think the best course of action with the symptoms your describing with the white worms coming out of they mouth would be to do a course of fenbendazole in food  feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days @jazmin

So the worms aren’t still out the mouth. That stopped. 
 

I tried expel p. Did my pics come up?

[Colu]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:55 PM, Tabeth said:

I

I can't see any signs of anchor worms in your picture with symptoms you describe fenbendazole  is the best treatment options

[Tabeth]

You had helped me before! But it isn’t fixed. 
 

thede things are all in his poop microscope.

I’ve treated with paraguard

exoel p

Geneeal cure. 5 treatments. 
mum sorry

to be so needy. 

Do these pics show up? Worms?

[Colu]

That why am recommending fenbendazole it a more powerful dewormer that treats different types of parasites then general cure some of the same types of parasites that Expel p treats has been proven effective when Expel p hasn't worked it isn't very water soluble so it best added to food looking at your picture of the parasites  possible camullanus worms or tape worms am not 100% on that it's difficult to tell for sure

Edited August 9, 2022 by Colu

[nabokovfan87]

@Biotope Biologist might be able to help us here, especially with the microscope stuff!

The med trio is missing one piece that might help. well two.

First I would dose the tank with salt and just start with that while everyone is trying to provide help.

General Cure / Paracleanse will work for:
 

Quote

Commonly used to treat:

• Gill & Skin Flukes (Gyrodactylus)
• Swollen Abdomen
• Wasting Disease
• Hole in Head 
• Internal Tapeworms

Expel-P and other meds would focus on:
 

Quote

Expel-P from Fritz Aquatics is used as a deworming medication and is intended to treat parasites such as Planaria, Nematodes (like Camallanus Red Worms), Roundworms, Nodular Worms and Hookworms. Symptoms in new and sick fish can include worms visibly protruding from the anus of the fish, wasting, abdominal bloating, disinterest in food, or rapid breathing or gasping. The active ingredient used in Expel P is Levamisole HCl. Expel-P will not harm biological filtration, plants, invertebrates or fish which are not infected. 

Another one to look at would be prazipro

@Odd Duck has recommended these for treatment with the random worms I found in my tank.  I started with expel-p and salt, then after fish had some time to recover and a few very big cleanings, this is what I've been following.
 

Quote

Week 1: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout for 24 hours, siphon and WC, prazi.

Week 2: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout for 24 hours, siphon and WC.

Week 3: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout for 24 hours, siphon and WC, prazi.

Week 4: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout for 24 hours, siphon and WC.

Week 5: WC and siphon, levamisole and blackout for 24 hours, siphon and WC, prazi (or can do only prazi this week and skip 5th treatment of levamisole).

Week 6: WC and siphon, then back to routine maintenance.

 

[Tabeth]

I’ve used prazi pro for a a month!

 

I do have salt in there 1 tablespoon per  2 gallons ;I started lower) I’ve done something right (I hope)

 

thank you!!!

[Odd Duck]

@TabethAre the worms you’re seeing moving under the microscope?  Most of what I’m seeing in your pics looks like fibers and insect parts.  I can’t see anything that is convincing me they are actually parasites.  It’s much more difficult to tell with photos than videos, especially if the photos are blurry.  I know it’s very hard to get good photos or videos of things under the microscope (it’s truly an art form in itself).  But worms will look like they have “parts” inside them (their organs) and nothing you posted looks like that as far as I can tell.  Certainly if you were seeing white worms coming out of the mouth and red worms coming out of the vent, those undoubtedly need treated.  But anchor worms are usually on the skin or can be on the gills (often you’ll see them on the gill margins).  You might be panicking about parasites needlessly.

Anchor worms can be cured with salt alone for 30 days but the usual recommendation is to push to 1 level tablespoon per gallon for anchorworms.  Do you only have goldfish?  Do you have live plants?  Goldfish can handle those salt levels but other species of fish and most live plants may not.  I can see you have some air bubbling, that’s great.  What filtration do you have?  Have you removed the substrate to help clear any remaining parasites?  I don’t always recommend that, but with 2 different types of worms ID’d, I would remove all substrate.  You can disinfect it with bleach water, then rinse it like mad about 10 times more than you think you need.  I would then soak it with dechlorinator for a full day, stirring every couple hours through the day just to be certain if you’re using sand.  Gravel likely doesn’t need quite so much rinsing or stirring while soaking before re-using.  Or you can just discard it all and start over after the treatment is finished.  It can be very difficult to fully clean substrate of all parasite eggs.

I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this, but you should be certain there are parasites that need such drastic treatment before proceeding.  @Colu’s recommendation of trying Expel-Pi’s good, since that will take care of most of the common fish intestinal parasites.  It isn’t as effective for anchorworms, but I don’t see evidence of anchorworms in your pics of the fish or in your microscope pics.

[Tabeth]

Thank you so very much 🙂 

This began first with some scale issues and I scraped one scale that fell off and I decided to analyze his poop and saw the white and red worms. Two other fish died around this time his pal goldie and a betta. The betta had a swollen belly and I thought stupidly that it was a turmor. He was 2.

 

More details.....

• I have one goldfish in this 40 gallon tank without plants and 4 airstones with a large marineland hob filter with media stones and sponges.
• I removed the substrate today.( After I did this he began surface breathing and hadn't started doing that since I began general cure about a month) I figured it stirred them up. 
• I have not seen any wiggling things. Nothing seems alive.

He has aquarium salt 1 tablelspoon per 2 gallons (started yesterday. Prior to this I was doing 1 per 5

He has had a couple epsom salt baths over the weekend.

Tonight I ran and got the med that Colu recommended. i followed some online recipe for medicated  food and fed him some. Ive given him a pea twice today to help push out the worms. He is pooping unusual poops...some white, twisted, thin thick...etc)

I'm really concerned with his scale loss as well. I do understand anchor worms are external but I thought I read they can be both. 

All of this began this past fall.....will grab parametesr now.

 

 

[laritheloud]

Hi @Tabeth! I went back to read your journey with your fish, and I really feel for you. I'm sorry you're going through so much anxiety with this.

I think your best course of action is to follow @Colu and @Odd Duck's advice and proceed with one more treatment. My inkling is that if you have treated your fish multiple times over with many different medications and you're not seeing an alleviation of 'symptoms' you're seeing--I am almost certain it means this is

a) misdiagnosed and/or
b) overmedicating.

What I would recommend is to stop after whatever course you're on now and focus on good, clean water and simply observing your fish. Try not to microanalyze small scrapes and put the microscope away. I nearly bought a microscope myself to help diagnose issues with my pets, but I realized before I sunk in the money that I don't know how to assess whether I'm correct about what I'm seeing, and whether any parasite activity is at a level that should be treated. Sometimes the best treatment is clean water and good husbandry, and I'm saying this as someone with a fully stocked fish meds cabinet that has learned a lot in her rookie year as a new fishkeeper in 2020.

Good luck, and I really hope you are pleasantly surprised by improvement in your sweet goldfish!

Edited August 9, 2022 by laritheloud

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:00 PM, Tabeth said:

He is pooping unusual poops...some white, twisted, thin thick...etc

Very likely to be internal tapeworms or some sort of internal parasite.  Going back to what's already mentioned, but I would focus on using Expel-P for ~3 weeks of treatment.  This one IS something where you want to make sure you turn off the lights, black out the tank for the first 24 hours.  Perhaps the light in the tank destroyed the meds before they could do their job if you had used them previously.

[Tabeth]

once I stop treatment he would be back surface breathing which he has never done in the past.

So, its been his scale loss and surface breathing that set of alarms for me. He doesn't stay up all day but he spends time up there in a corner.

I know I'm anxious. I'm sorry...I'm new 🙂

[laritheloud]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:37 PM, Tabeth said:

once I stop treatment he would be back surface breathing which he has never done in the past.

So, its been his scale loss and surface breathing that set of alarms for me. He doesn't stay up all day but he spends time up there in a corner.

I know I'm anxious. I'm sorry...I'm new 🙂

I understand. I have an anxiety disorder and when I was new to fishkeeping I was fretting over everything… it was hard to enjoy my tanks. You’re providing the best for your fishy and doing what you can to help them. It shows how much you care!

If you don’t have airstones running in the tank I would try adding more airstones to increase dissolved oxygen. Wormers tend to affect dissolved oxygen especially at warmer temps. Oxygen willI help with healing through treatment and beyond — I saw some interesting research posted on these forums about it. 

[Tabeth]

On 8/9/2022 at 5:35 AM, laritheloud said:

I understand. I have an anxiety disorder and when I was new to fishkeeping I was fretting over everything… it was hard to enjoy my tanks. You’re providing the best for your fishy and doing what you can to help them. It shows how much you care!

If you don’t have airstones running in the tank I would try adding more airstones to increase dissolved oxygen. Wormers tend to affect dissolved oxygen especially at warmer temps. Oxygen willI help with healing through treatment and beyond — I saw some interesting research posted on these forums about it. 

Thank you! Anxiety sucks, doesn't it. I'm ok but I know the fish trigger me!

I have 3 airstones running with no heater.  He's been doing great, active and eating and then tonight he's at the top of the water not 100% of the time though.How much of that is normal?

If he has something in his gills will I see it? I know flukes are microscopic but I've been seeing some clear/whitey/yellow  flakes and I wondered it it was something in his gils because it wasn't his poop.. Could something be expelling as he gets treated?It doesn't look likr poo

I made medicated food with the dewormer ingredient. I was nervous. He seemed mostly ok. At one point after I had started feeding him the meds he did a little darting kind of thing...fast zippy movements (maybe flashing?) but only for a minute or so and then he was fine. Could the parasites be dying and irritating him? Definitely there is lots of pooping all kinds of colors and textures. 

[Odd Duck]

I truly do NOT see any parasites in your pictures.  Parasites will be alive and moving.  If you are not seeing movement they are NOT worms and most definitely not parasites.  The red and white that are in the picture together look like fibers, not worms at all.  I can even see some twist in the big clump of white fibers, like thread has.  I definitely don’t see parasites that are likely to cause respiratory symptoms.  Tapeworms don’t cause respiratory issues and would not make your fish need to breathe at the surface.  No intestinal parasites will cause that.  Overmedicating can cause that.  Please take a step back from panic and just focus on excellent husbandry for a while.  I’m sorry to have given deworming advice without being more specific about whether I thought you were truly dealing with parasites or not.

I’m sorry I didn’t realize everything that’s been going on with your fish.  I don’t generally read the diseases section since I already see too many sick and dying animals at work, I don’t like to see it when I’m off work, too.  I usually only get involved if someone tags me.  Which I don’t mind, I just don’t want to get involved in every single case since it gets to be too much overall.

Now that you’ve mentioned the scale loss and breathing, I remember seeing some of your other posts.  I think you might just need to stop treating, do weekly water changes of at least 25%, and just watch your fish for a few days and tell me what you’re seeing.  Test for everything daily (pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate - make very certain to shake the nitrate reagent bottles very well) for at least a week and post up results for me, please?  I’m sure you’ve posted about your testing results before, but can you please review them for me so I can give more intelligent and appropriate advice?

On 8/8/2022 at 10:00 PM, Tabeth said:

He is pooping unusual poops...some white, twisted, thin thick...etc)

This could just as well be from diet changes as from parasites.  Go back to feeding a steady diet of a formulated goldfish food for the next week, please, while doing daily testing.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Odd Duck

[Tabeth]

On 8/10/2022 at 4:00 AM, Odd Duck said:

 thank you so much for your help! Thanks so much for listening to me yammer. I will reply to each thought after them!

 

But I truly do NOT see any parasites in your pictures.  Parasites will be alive and moving.  If you are not seeing movement they are NOT worms and most definitely not parasites.

🙂But if I"m treating them wouldn't they be dead?

 

 The red and white that are in the picture together look like fibers, not worms at all.  I can even see some twist in the big clump of white fibers, like thread has.

🙂 Where ever would he get these threads? The red threads in these minuscule poop samples? 

 

 I definitely don’t see parasites that are likely to cause respiratory symptoms.  Tapeworms don’t cause respiratory issues and would not make your fish need to breathe at the surface.

🙂This is so good to hear. It was a big change for him to be at the top.  I'm noticed recently when he is up there he isn't gasping water. He's under the water and no mouth on top. I do have 3 airs stones as well.

 

 

 No intestinal parasites will cause that.

🙂  Overmedicating can cause that.  Please take a step back from panic and just focus on excellent husbandry for a while.  I’m sorry to have given deworming advice without being more specific about whether I thought you were truly dealing with parasites or not. ALso please don't be sorry for a second. Your experince is great and I trust what your are telling me.

I’m sorry I didn’t realize everything that’s been going on with your fish.  I don’t generally read the diseases section since I already see too many sick and dying animals at work, I don’t like to see it when I’m off work, too.  I usually only get involved if someone tags me.  Which I don’t mind, I just don’t want to get involved in every single case since it gets to be too much overall.

🙂 I absolutely agree. It triggers me so I don't come reading. I should just skip this section.

Now that you’ve mentioned the scale loss and breathing, I remember seeing some of your other posts.  I think you might just need to stop treating, do weekly water changes of at least 25%, and just watch your fish for a few days and tell me what you’re seeing.  

🙂 Currently he isn't pooping much.  😞 

Test for everything daily (pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate - make very certain to shake the nitrate reagent bottles very well) for at least a week and post up results for me, please?  I’m sure you’ve posted about your testing results before, but can you please review them for me so I can give more intelligent and appropriate advice?

🙂 Yes I will do this. I appreciate this so much!. I've started a little blog to explain what has gone on completely in proper form. I will post here as well. 

Testing: (last nights numbers. these were strips though. I will use the master test kit next. I just wanted to get back and reply)

• ph 7.6
• Hardness 0
• Ammonia 0
• Nitrite 0
• Nitrate 50
• Nitrite 0
• chlorine 0
• alkalinity 40

 

On 8/10/2022 at 4:00 AM, Odd Duck said:

This could just as well be from diet changes as from parasites.  Go back to feeding a steady dieto o, of a formulated goldfish food for the next week, please, while doing daily testing.

🙂 Which do you think? I've been feeding repashy occassional and a standard pellet as well.  I am really thankful for your help! Obviously I'm a newbie but....I'm going on the second year. I started out changing the waster anytime I had ammonia for which was daily. There really is so much info out there. I should stick around and read. I joined the youtube channel.

Hi! I'm sorry for taking so long to get back here. First off, thank you so much for the help! Super appreciate it. Just a couple of points I had forgoten to ask. If I'm killing the worms or whatever parasite wouldn't they be dead?

[Tabeth]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:03 PM, Colu said:

Anchor worms  inbed in the side of your fish do they look this have you got a picture of the fish 

I did exactly this. And those worms looked like that which were expelling. This is what they looked like as he was pooping them out (I thought). Quite long like white a piece of chopped coconut. Thank you!  

On 8/8/2022 at 5:03 PM, Colu said:

 

[laritheloud]

Anchor worms are external and won't be pooped out. White stringy poops is shed intestinal lining. That doesn't necessarily mean your fish has a disease; it could mean he hasn't eaten for a few hours, he's stressed, or his diet has changed in some way. My gouramis all occasionally have white poop, they're healthy and have been healthy for the year and a half I've had them.

If you're seeing white COTTONY discharge instead of poop, that's mucus and inflammation and generally means internal infection. I saw that come out of my pacific blue-eyed rainbowfish as they aged and died off.

It's more important to pay attention to the overall behavior of your fish, their appetite, and their water quality before throwing treatments at them. It's really tough to swallow sometimes, I get it; you want to take action as soon as possible to halt what COULD be a problem. But sometimes trying to treat and treat and treat without any certainty can do more harm than good, and after going through my own cycle of fretting over fish health, I have learned that patience and clean water is often a very good medicine for fish. Bigger worm infestations -- especially roundworms or camallanus worms -- are typically visible to the naked eye when they are expelled. If you haven't seen worms come out of your goldfish, I don't think he has worms, and I would trust @Odd Duck when they ask you to focus on water changes and a baseline before doing any more treatments. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by laritheloud

[Odd Duck]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:23 PM, Tabeth said:

Hi! I'm sorry for taking so long to get back here. First off, thank you so much for the help! Super appreciate it. Just a couple of points I had forgoten to ask. If I'm killing the worms or whatever parasite wouldn't they be dead?

Most of the dewormers paralyze but don’t kill the worms, so they can be expelled from the fish’s GI tract.  This is why it’s important to siphon the bottom of the tank thoroughly after treatments.  They will still not look like a fiber, especially not a twisted fiber like thread looks.  They will look like they have organs inside, because they do have organs inside.  They don’t look smooth and homogenous throughout the organism.  Your red “worms” are exactly the same color throughout their length with no difference from side to side or end to end.  Same with the white fibers in your pics.  Most fish GI tracts are fairly short, so the paralyzed worms may, or may not, be partially digested as they are expelled.  The remnants will still have some structure to them with visible organs.

@laritheloudhas it right.  The anchorworms are surface/external parasites, not internal parasites.  They will certainly not be expelled, they would just drop off.  They would be killed by the treatments needed to eliminate them (this is why they need a different treatment than other parasites).  When worms are killed, they would disintegrate quickly.  Our aquariums are full of bacteria that are excellent at doing their job, which is breaking down proteins.  These are the beneficial bacteria we so patiently wait to develop.  Worms are very high in protein and would get digested very quickly to the point where I don’t think you would usually see them.  Typically when we see Camallanus worms, they are so abundant they are being forced out of the GI tract by their fellow parasites.

I know you’re very concerned but I think you may be overly focused on the idea of parasites.  I think you’ve done appropriate, preventative deworming and you can stop. Just focus on excellent maintenance and preventive care.  If you get more fish, do the deworming regimen in a quarantine tank before they go into your primary tank and you should be pretty well covered.

[Tabeth]

Mr. Odd Duck,

Thank you so much for your hand holding here. I AM focused on parasites. I understand everything you've said and it all makes sense. I have done plenty of deworming treatments.I don't get the red threads tho he does have some red silk plants which I have removed. I used to have some real plants in there but he ate them all. 

I will concentrate on his water/tank and food and his adorableness. 🙂 I look forward to getting to know everyone outside of this disease section.

I truly appreciate your help!

Tabatha

[Tabeth]

I just started a little fish blog….come see Clem! 

https://clumseyfishlady.wordpress.com/2022/08/13/fave-vid/

[Odd Duck]

On 8/13/2022 at 1:31 PM, Tabeth said:

I just started a little fish blog….come see Clem! 

https://clumseyfishlady.wordpress.com/2022/08/13/fave-vid/

He’s sooooo gorgeous!

The closeup pics showed how pretty his scales were, but the vid shows off much better how gorgeous he is overall!