High altitude livebearers always failing

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

I've tried quite a few livebearers but I never get fry long term (more that 6 broods out of each purchased or 1st generation female) which I am always intrigued by

The previous tries , Celebes Halfbeak, variatus platy,maculatus platy, black chin livebearer, black prince goodeid, rainbow goodied, Limia Perugia (Boca de Cachon), Xenotoca doadrioi (San Marcos), Zoogoneticus tequila (Rio Teuchitlan),  least killifish, red swordtails, highland swordtail.

I have run various temperatures and ph crushed coral 300 tds etc. Harder versions of the puffer setups. Good food and cover. My theory is high altitude negatively impacts livebearers by somehow causing issues with the mother and eventually crashing the colony. 

Do you think this is possible ? Why would that be more of an impact on livebearers than egglayers?

Edited July 14, 2022 by mountaintoppufferkeeper

[Scapexghost]

Here's an Article of feral guppies in a mountain spring.

Water density doesn't vary with altitude, no liquid does. Liquids have a fixed volume regardless of outside pressure. Dissolved gases will, but with an airstone this can be remidied easily. David Clapsaddle's old farm was in/near santa fe, nm, which is at 7200'. Whatever the issue is, it is not altitude.

[Dancing Matt]

What about second and third generations? Could it be that the first generation is not adapted to your water?

[modified lung]

Could be oxygen. I'm as sea level but I was having a similar problem. Turned out they were using a lot more oxygen than I expected. Adding an airstone fixed the problem for me.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

On 7/14/2022 at 10:07 AM, Dancing Matt said:

What about second and third generations? Could it be that the first generation is not adapted to your water?

Same for those no more than 6 just an interesting 

 

On 7/13/2022 at 11:53 PM, Scapexghost said:

Here's an Article of feral guppies in a mountain spring.

Water density doesn't vary with altitude, no liquid does. Liquids have a fixed volume regardless of outside pressure. Dissolved gases will, but with an airstone this can be remidied easily. David Clapsaddle's old farm was in/near santa fe, nm, which is at 7200'. Whatever the issue is, it is not altitude.

I haven't tried guppies yet they may be the next up if the highland swords do not figure it out. It's certainly an odd pattern considering the rest of the species breeding up here longer term. 

On 7/14/2022 at 10:46 AM, modified lung said:

Could be oxygen. I'm as sea level but I was having a similar problem. Turned out they were using a lot more oxygen than I expected. Adding an airstone fixed the problem for me.

I do run live plants and box filters it is an odd one for me. 

[Hobbit]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:06 AM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

I do run live plants and box filters

Do box filters produce a lot of bubbles? I’ve never used one myself. Keep in mind that plants only produce oxygen when they have light. At night they’ll actually be producing CO2 and using up oxygen.

Do you have your livebearers all mixed together, males and females? Probably a stupid question but just making sure. Females can store some sperm but it’s not an infinite supply.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

@Hobbit sorry on the delay I was positive i replied back then.

I did do some additional research on dissolved oxygen at altitude. Based on my limited understanding of Henry's law and using this calculator https://www.waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/dosatcalc.html

it seems that up here at 9,137 ' my water has the capacity for 5.92 mg/l  dissolved oxygen at 75⁰. At 7,200' that number is 6.40 mg/l and at sea level that is 8.43 mg/l. 7.5% less dissolved oxygen capacity from 7200' and 29.7% less than sea level may just be a little too far to get the fish who live birth young really thriving but I'm still working on breaking the code to get a livebearer really happy up here. 

All other conditions being equal, I still think altitude may be a contributing factor to the livebearer experiences up here. I do wonder if the limitation on dissolved oxygen is possibly causing changes in the blood of the livebearer , similar to humans, and that in turn causes stress on the female and prevent or reduces the ability carry those young to birth in successive broods.

Yes box filters are the green filter here with either airline or an air diffuser pushing bubbles to create the flow. I have had issues with livebearers even in this setup long term. I normally have mixed ratios and cull any that have any visible issues which may weaken the line.  This is the typical rack tank where I use the box filters and a barbed fitting on the water supply line to give me some pressure and oxygenate the water. This runs 24x7 for my colony of Scleromystax sp. C112 Baianinho II . A male is on the filter in the clip. 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

This is really an interesting pattern.  From the list of species you've tried, it appears you have tried both ovoviviparous and true viviparous species.  Given that in the ovoviviparous species the eggs aren't drawing on the mother's O2 supply in the same way, I'm not sure what the mechanism is.  Plus, if I understand correctly, you are seeing attenuation through generations, and not total failure of broods.  Is that right?  

Here is what I propose...  I suspect you might be right that O2 concentrations could be playing a role here, but I wonder if it is doing so through developmental issues, i.e. the fish raised in the lower O2 environment are not developing properly, leaving them unable, or less able, to successfully reproduce as adults.  This would account for why you are able to breed for a time, but not maintain stable populations long-term.  If it was simply an acute lack of O2 to the pregnant females and their broods, I would expect lower number, but stable, brood sizes, or increased maternal mortality.  But it doesn't sound like that's what you are observing.  So my guess is there is an underlying developmental component to this. 

Obviously the way to test this would be to get a DO meter and then a means to super saturate the O2 in the water - however that might be prohibitively expensive.  Maybe @modified lung or @Biotope Biologist have some other ideas about means to test the low O2 hypothesis.  I'd also be curious about their takes on my suggestion about the role of development in the pattern you are observing. 

[modified lung]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:07 AM, OnlyGenusCaps said:

This is really an interesting pattern.  From the list of species you've tried, it appears you have tried both ovoviviparous and true viviparous species.  Given that in the ovoviviparous species the eggs aren't drawing on the mother's O2 supply in the same way, I'm not sure what the mechanism is.  Plus, if I understand correctly, you are seeing attenuation through generations, and not total failure of broods.  Is that right?  

Here is what I propose...  I suspect you might be right that O2 concentrations could be playing a role here, but I wonder if it is doing so through developmental issues, i.e. the fish raised in the lower O2 environment are not developing properly, leaving them unable, or less able, to successfully reproduce as adults.  This would account for why you are able to breed for a time, but not maintain stable populations long-term.  If it was simply an acute lack of O2 to the pregnant females and their broods, I would expect lower number, but stable, brood sizes, or increased maternal mortality.  But it doesn't sound like that's what you are observing.  So my guess is there is an underlying developmental component to this. 

Obviously the way to test this would be to get a DO meter and then a means to super saturate the O2 in the water - however that might be prohibitively expensive.  Maybe @modified lung or @Biotope Biologist have some other ideas about means to test the low O2 hypothesis.  I'd also be curious about their takes on my suggestion about the role of development in the pattern you are observing. 

I think you're right on. Low O2 during embryonic phase significantly slows development, shortens life span, and often results in deformities at birth. It can also negatively affect sperm and egg. I wouldn't be surprised if their reproductive systems didn't develop properly.

For some species up to 4 mg/L is too low. Full saturation at 5.9 mg/L doesn't give a very big margin for error. At sea level my 80 gal guppy tank was only at 4.5 mg/L with a single sponge filter and I was seeing deformities and shortened life spans. Circulating the water more with a pump didn't help much. Adding a 6 inch fine bubble curtain line brought it up to 7.5 mg/L.

Salifert has an oxygen test but I've never used it. Dissolved oxygen meters can be expensive but maybe worth it in this case? @mountaintoppufferkeeper If you decide on getting a meter I can help pick one out. They're a lot more complicated than pH meters.

[mountaintoppufferkeeper]

 

@OnlyGenusCaps @modified lung thanks kindly. I do loose livebearer females quicker than males but it's a few cycles deep before they start slowly dying off and the batches slow until the line ends.

Unless I can be super saturated in dissolved oxygen with the live plants (no pearling) and air in the room, the salifert test seems slightly high the was at 75⁰ from the top of the tank at 815 pm mountain time tank light sunsets and slowly fades to off from 830 to 9pm.

Looks like it is closer to 8 mg/L than 6 mg/L  to me but the link previously posted says im limited to 5.9 mg/L @75⁰ water @ 9100 feet. 

I imagine that content can swing a bit here as well with the air density and temperature fluctuations throughout the day. 

Dissolved oxygen test @815pm

The room temperature sensor at time of collection. 

The water in the tank at time of collection for testing. 

@modified lungI'd take any advice you have on dissolved oxygen meters. I'm interested to see what a more calibrated instrument would say. My assumption is this is related to livebearing processes at altitude because it's more notocable in those species. There are definately losses of gravid females and eventual loss of adults with no production after a few broods.

The egg depositors, egg scatterers, and mouthbrooder methods all do pretty well up here. To the point that I think the altitude fires most fish up to spawn regardless of their difficulty at lower altitude.

I've got more wild caught puffers producing F1 fry and F2 puffers spawning of than I could have imagined. They produce like I would have expected livebearers to produce. 

Pao cf palustris F1 fry 30 in the tank 

day 40 (tonight)

F1 palustris born here spawning 9 months old 

 I am certainly making some assumptions based off anecdotal evidence and it could easily be a case of confirmation bias that is bringing me to blame the spawning method and altitude vs any number of other contributing factors that I have yet to notice.

To me it seems like the act of carrying the eggs to live birth,at arguably very high altitude, may be shortening the lifespan significantly and some level.of fertility for whatever reason. 

[modified lung]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:26 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

My assumption is this is related to livebearing processes at altitude because it's more notocable in those species.

That's interesting. The oxygen requirements can be very different at different stages of development. I don't know much about livebearers specifically but maybe they have a more demanding developmental stage before birth compared to egg layers? I feel like that would make sense.

On 8/10/2022 at 8:26 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

I am certainly making some assumptions based off anecdotal evidence and it could easily be a case of confirmation bias that is bringing me to blame the spawning method and altitude vs any number of other contributing factors that I have yet to notice.

Lol That's really all we can do with most of this stuff.

On 8/10/2022 at 8:26 PM, mountaintoppufferkeeper said:

I'd take any advice you have on dissolved oxygen meters. I'm interested to see what a more calibrated instrument would say.

There's 3 main types of DO sensors: optical, galvanic, and polarographic.

If you can find a probe with an optical sensor that's decently priced, these are by far the easiest. They need almost no maintenance or replacement parts and hold calibration for a long time. But they're the most expensive up front.

Galvanic and polarographic sensors are faster but their membranes and electrolyte solution needs to be replaced every 3 to 8 months. So they're usually cheaper up front but more expensive in the long term.

If you go with one of these i'd recommend checking the prices of membrane replacement kits and buying from a well established brand (Milwaukee, Hanna, etc.) so you know the kits will always be available. Kits for cheap probes off Amazon may not always be around.

Galvanic probes are the fastest but they take readings by constantly oxidizing part of the sensor (even when the probe is turned off) which means the sensor inside the probe also has to be replaced every year or two.

Also, when looking at prices, make sure the unit says it comes with a sensor. Some companies make probes with interchangable sensors so they sell the hand held unit separately from the actual sensor. 

Edited August 11, 2022 by modified lung

[nabokovfan87]

They have air based oxygen stones for very fine bubbles that might be super helpful for you to try to get oxygen maxed as high as possible given what the water can hold. 

Sometimes they are marketed as anti-algae devices, sometimes they are marketed as sterilizers, but it's just a very fine membrane to make tiny bubbles similar to a CO2 system. Aquario also makes the neo ceramic varieties for air (ACO sells the co2 varieties).

Atomizer/sterilizer: