Question about Water Hardness and Livebearers

[Fish Folk]

We have really soft water here from our tap. It usually takes three drops for a KH test from the tap, but after water sets in an aquarium for a few weeks, the first titration drop is already converted.

Because we are all generally advised that livebearers prefer harder water, I've added crushed coral to some tanks where I keep them.

But I have been thinking about our success with keeping and breeding Guppies outside in our mini-pond water gardens...

This water is really soft. We use our tank water to start, and rainwater to fill. Later in the summer, I add more tank water to top off. It is all really soft water. But the Guppies do wonderfully.

Any reflections on this? On what data / studies / demonstrable facts is the hard-water recommendations generally based?

Let me hasten to add one key: we use guppies that were _born_ in _our water_ in the first place. So from fry, they've been accustomed to our soft water.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Fish Folk

[lefty o]

i honestly believe tropical fish we keep care more about consistent water than they do what the books call for. especially guppy's, they seem to do well in anything from mildly brackish, to fairly soft water, so long as you dont take them from one extreme and drop them straight into the other extreme.

[Ken Burke]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:09 PM, lefty o said:

i honestly believe tropical fish we keep care more about consistent water than they do what the books call for. especially guppy's, they seem to do well in anything from mildly brackish, to fairly soft water, so long as you dont take them from one extreme and drop them straight into the other extreme.

I’m with you there. We need to shoot for stability rather than target

[Cinnebuns]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:09 PM, lefty o said:

i honestly believe tropical fish we keep care more about consistent water than they do what the books call for. especially guppy's, they seem to do well in anything from mildly brackish, to fairly soft water, so long as you dont take them from one extreme and drop them straight into the other extreme.

You took the words out of my mouth. I think too often in this hobby we underestimate the fish. Some are pickier than others yes, but guppies aren't one of them. 

[nabokovfan87]

Kind of a difficult one to answer, but I equate it to this...
 

Some people prefer beef, some prefer chicken, some seafood, and a lot of that is based on regional cuisine based on what they grow up around.  In terms of how species adapt to their surroundings with diet and preference, they also adapt in many ways to the environment in terms of PH, KH, GH, etc.

Best example I can give you from the hobby is discus. Many people say they need very specific parameters, are a very sensitive fish, and ultimately "can only be kept" in that type of an environment.  Shrimp are the same way. But then we hear across the pond they have them under completely different parameters.

The problem is that we live in a world where information is available, but not necessarily the information we actually need. Plato's Cave. We can only make opinions and gain knowledge based on what's right in front of us.  I might go to the store, see one set of requirements.  Then I'll check online on a trusted website and find another set of requirements.  Then I talk to a friend and they tell me what they use with the same fish.  Unfortunately, one of the biggest things we cannot control and don't know is what is the fish actually used to. 

I had a new species come in and I had pretty much no information on them whatsoever. I didn't know if they preferred warmer water or cooler water. I didn't know what type of food they preferred or how much light they preferred.  I don't know what type of a scape to give them to make them feel comfortable and it wasn't a species where I could just look online and find out.  Ultimately, I started with what I thought made sense, and I watched.  Then I would raise the temp or try different things and try to listen to what the fish did.  They wouldn't eat when the temp was a certain point.  Then at one point they did eat, but then they wouldn't swim at all.  Then they would only eat one type of food and not others that I assumed they would enjoy.

That is where all of this information is coming from is people trying things, trying to figure it out, and then trying to bounce that off of what does the natural environment tell us.  Same thing when people ask if corydoras must have sand.  Not at all.  Is it better for them? Pretty much, yes.

Do the fish need a PH of 6.5 or 7?  I mean, my water changes that much daily it seems like.

Do they need "hard water" or just "slightly hard water"?  I'd refer to shrimp, discus, and cichlids as to why they would or wouldn't. But I think we all agree stable tank, acclimating to those parameters and being able to thrive, that's what matters.  I also don't know if having fry equals success.  You might start seeing deformities down the line.

This is probably a really good question to ask Goliad Farms.

[Torrey]

On 6/6/2022 at 8:58 PM, Fish Folk said:

We have really soft water here from our tap. It usually takes three drops for a KH test from the tap, but after water sets in an aquarium for a few weeks, the first titration drop is already converted.

Because we are all generally advised that livebearers prefer harder water, I've added crushed coral to some tanks where I keep them.

But I have been thinking about our success with keeping and breeding Guppies outside in our mini-pond water gardens...

This water is really soft. We use our tank water to start, and rainwater to fill. Later in the summer, I add more tank water to top off. It is all really soft water. But the Guppies do wonderfully.

Any reflections on this? On what data / studies / demonstrable facts is the hard-water recommendations generally based?

Let me hasten to add one key: we use guppies that were _born_ in _our water_ in the first place. So from fry, they've been accustomed to our soft water.

I suspect you feed them enough calcium in quality food. 

I have had experiences with livebearers that developed problems (it's almost always the females) due to insufficient calcium.

However, you have gorgeous plants that aren't showing any signs of calcium deficiencies. Water hyacinth is a calcium hog on par with hornwort, so what are you fertilizing with? Are you taking plants out to fertilize, or are you putting ferts in your water?

If your fish need more calcium, you'll see it in the ladies first... all those pregnancies will eventually take a toll. Otherwise, I would say you are meeting their needs and they are thriving.

[Fish Folk]

On 6/7/2022 at 12:28 AM, Torrey said:

I suspect you feed them enough calcium in quality food. 

I have had experiences with livebearers that developed problems (it's almost always the females) due to insufficient calcium.

However, you have gorgeous plants that aren't showing any signs of calcium deficiencies. Water hyacinth is a calcium hog on par with hornwort, so what are you fertilizing with? Are you taking plants out to fertilize, or are you putting ferts in your water?

If your fish need more calcium, you'll see it in the ladies first... all those pregnancies will eventually take a toll. Otherwise, I would say you are meeting their needs and they are thriving.

Thanks @Torrey, I'll be sure to remember this and keep an eye out. We do not do anything by way of fertilizers outside. I do keep the soil that potted plants come in in their containers. Perhaps that leeches into the water. We feed mosquito larvae, along with other fly larvae from standing water tubs. I also feed daily with some live BBS, some ACO Easy Fry Food, some crushed flake food. But it may be a matter of time before things fall apart. There sure are a ton of fry so far!

On 6/7/2022 at 12:18 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Kind of a difficult one to answer, but I equate it to this...
 

Some people prefer beef, some prefer chicken, some seafood, and a lot of that is based on regional cuisine based on what they grow up around.  In terms of how species adapt to their surroundings with diet and preference, they also adapt in many ways to the environment in terms of PH, KH, GH, etc.

Best example I can give you from the hobby is discus. Many people say they need very specific parameters, are a very sensitive fish, and ultimately "can only be kept" in that type of an environment.  Shrimp are the same way. But then we hear across the pond they have them under completely different parameters.

The problem is that we live in a world where information is available, but not necessarily the information we actually need. Plato's Cave. We can only make opinions and gain knowledge based on what's right in front of us.  I might go to the store, see one set of requirements.  Then I'll check online on a trusted website and find another set of requirements.  Then I talk to a friend and they tell me what they use with the same fish.  Unfortunately, one of the biggest things we cannot control and don't know is what is the fish actually used to. 

I had a new species come in and I had pretty much no information on them whatsoever. I didn't know if they preferred warmer water or cooler water. I didn't know what type of food they preferred or how much light they preferred.  I don't know what type of a scape to give them to make them feel comfortable and it wasn't a species where I could just look online and find out.  Ultimately, I started with what I thought made sense, and I watched.  Then I would raise the temp or try different things and try to listen to what the fish did.  They wouldn't eat when the temp was a certain point.  Then at one point they did eat, but then they wouldn't swim at all.  Then they would only eat one type of food and not others that I assumed they would enjoy.

That is where all of this information is coming from is people trying things, trying to figure it out, and then trying to bounce that off of what does the natural environment tell us.  Same thing when people ask if corydoras must have sand.  Not at all.  Is it better for them? Pretty much, yes.

Do the fish need a PH of 6.5 or 7?  I mean, my water changes that much daily it seems like.

Do they need "hard water" or just "slightly hard water"?  I'd refer to shrimp, discus, and cichlids as to why they would or wouldn't. But I think we all agree stable tank, acclimating to those parameters and being able to thrive, that's what matters.  I also don't know if having fry equals success.  You might start seeing deformities down the line.

This is probably a really good question to ask Goliad Farms.

Interesting video! Thanks for the time taken to provide a thoughtful reply. "You might start seeing deformities down the line." I'll definitely need to stay tuned for that. Right now, they're just pumping out fry.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/6/2022 at 9:37 PM, Fish Folk said:

Right now, they're just pumping out fry.

Quite amazing fry too.  Charles (goliad) might have some relevant info on his website for his livebearer issues he's had. I don't know if any is tied to water parameters.