What's Happening?

[Cinnebuns]

I'm having an issue with my 10 gal fry tank. It all started when I replaced the old 10 gal with a different used one off marketplace. The tank holds guppy and panda cory fry along with ramshorn snails. The guppies are completely fine but the cories and snails keep dying.

It's a split tank and at first it only seemed to effect one side, now, it's effecting that side the most, but the snails on the other side also do not look well. When I first noticed this I decided to clean the bottom really well EVERY day with a turkey baster (barebottom). Even while doing this, I keep finding dead and dying cories and snails. 

Given it started when I got the new tank, is it possible it's something in the tank itself?  Maybe a bacteria or something. If so, is all the equipment in the tank now no good too?  Ideas?

Edit to add:  one other change that happened is with the filters. All other equipment are the same. Each side has their own sponge filter. At first I had ACO small on one side and nano on the other. I moved the small to a different tank and put in a new out of the box nano. I don't think it's from the filter cycling because my parameters are spotless and I've been checking them 1-2x a week as well as changing the water 1-2x a week because of all the cleaning. But idk. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Cinnebuns

[Cory]

Have a picture? Could they be starving?

[nabokovfan87]

This setup Cory had may or may not indicate what's going on with flow.  (middle sections doesn't have the flow it needed, etc.

Looking forward to seeing it!
 

 

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/21/2022 at 9:56 PM, Cory said:

Have a picture? Could they be starving?

I took this video. It's possible I need to divide it into 2 tanks instead of the 1 divided but this problem started when I had half the amount of guppies in here so I'm not convinced it's a bioload issues. Especially since I have been checking parameters 1-2x a week and they always come out ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0, nitrate usually around 10. I end up adding water back from what I take out from daily cleaning about 2-3x a week for the past 2 weeks. Before that was roughly once. 

I feed 3-5x a day and I admit it usually is first bites or bug bites. Occasionally I will drop an algae wafer in. Seems a lot of the flakes do drop to the bottom but that doesn't mean guppies don't grab them. 

 

[Cinnebuns]

Update:  I did just now notice the female side a lot of fish have red gills so I tested again thinking maybe ammonia. Didn't find any. Red gills from anything other than ammonia that might be the issue?

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/21/2022 at 8:44 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Red gills from anything other than ammonia that might be the issue?

For the corydoras do they seem stressed, breathing very very very rapidly?

Could it a temp issue? 

I don't think it's oxygenation based on setup, but that's the only other reason I can think for what you're seeing.

 

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:02 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

For the corydoras do they seem stressed, breathing very very very rapidly?

Could it a temp issue? 

I don't think it's oxygenation based on setup, but that's the only other reason I can think for what you're seeing.

 

They don't seem stressed at all until they start to get pale. 

Double checked temp. A little on the low side but not worryingly. 75.2. I bumped it up a little. 

[Cinnebuns]

@nabokovfan87 one guy on Facebook suggested a large water change to possibly get out something in the water causing the issues. I have been doing lots of little but he said a large would be better. What do you think?  Another thought is I just got some activated carbon I can maybe run to possibly take out whatever bad is causing issues if it IS a contaminant in the water. Might not hurt to try regardless. Experimenting is a way to find answers. I threw on one of my internal filters today to possibly help so I could throw the carbon in there. 

[nabokovfan87]

I don't think there's any issues running carbon at all. It definitely doesn't hurt to do that.

Turn off the pump for a second, check the water surface, do you see a film or no?

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:46 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I don't think there's any issues running carbon at all. It definitely doesn't hurt to do that.

Turn off the pump for a second, check the water surface, do you see a film or no?

No film

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/21/2022 at 9:49 PM, Cinnebuns said:

No film

I don't think that's the issue then.  What food options do you have on hand besides the bug bites?

Edit:

To clarify, if you want to "clean the tank" so to speak, I'd drop the level by 10-15% and then you would rinse everything around the rim area into the water column, scrub the sides, etc.  Then you go ahead and drain it a bit more until you're about halfway (with fry it's difficult to do this in a large volume).  Then I'd go ahead and rinse everything with a new sponge or something similar scrub anything you need to with clean water/sponge, and then do the rest of your water change.  Try to get everything into the water column and then out.

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:57 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I don't think that's the issue then.  What food options do you have on hand besides the bug bites?

 

Lots and lots lol. Honestly the biggest reason i settled on bug bites for when they get older was its more crushed up than my other flake food. Idk. I guess at this age they could eat anything tho. I have far too many other options. I'll list what I can remember. 

Tropical flakes (I got tons of these cause I kept getting them from hobbyists getting out of the hobby), shrimp pellets, blood worms, vibra bites, crab cuisine, algae wafers for commercial food then I have prepared and frozen cucumbers, blanched kale, and green beans. I went too far buying food when I started and I've collected more since from random people. 

Oh and frozen bbs. I always forget about that. Idk why cause it's so good for them. Maybe cause I have too much other stuff

[nabokovfan87]

I would try vibra bites and or flakes. Put them into a bag and try to get it into a very very fine powder. Then try feeding that to see if you see any improvement or increased appetite.

Whatever is easier to get to a fine powder, go for that longer term.  I think you might just have issues where they are eating, but not as much as they could.  When I have had cory fry, I never did anything special, but some of the foods I have (like the sera spirulina tabs) turn into a fine powder pile after a little while.  They usually eat off the mulm in a colony type of setting.  Whenever I do get more eggs, I'm going to be going through a lot of what you are and I definitely understand the stress side of it.

Little bits, less than you think, as your food and just see what they respond to. 

Beyond that, I just don't know what could be causing the falloffs. Corys are usually pretty easy to know when it's temp/oxygen or something like that so right now I think you've narrowed it down to chemical / food issues.  It doesn't seem to be a chemical thing based on what you're seeing, but there could be a residue from when the tank was cleaned that wouldn't show up on a test. rinsing heavily should resolve that if we know for certain food isn't the issue.

Edited May 24, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/22/2022 at 12:07 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would try vibra bites and or flakes. Put them into a bag and try to get it into a very very fine powder. Then try feeding that to see if you see any improvement or increased appetite.

Whatever is easier to get to a fine powder, go for that longer term.  I think you might just have issues where they are eating, but not as much as they could.  When I have had cory fry, I never did anything special, but some of the foods I have (like the sera spirulina tabs) turn into a fine powder pile after a little while.  They usually eat off the mulm in a colony type of setting.  Whenever I do get more eggs, I'm going to be going through a lot of what you are and I definitely understand the stress side of it.

Little bits, less than you think, as you food and just see what they respond to. 

Beyond that, I just don't know what could be causing the falloffs. Corys are usually pretty easy to know when it's temp/oxygen or something like that so right now I think you've narrowed it down to chemical / food issues.  It doesn't seem to be a chemical thing based on what you're seeing, but there could be a residue from when the tank was cleaned that wouldn't show up on a test. rinsing heavily should resolve that if we know for certain food isn't the issue.

Ty so much that's a huge help. I'm gonna put that into action for sure. And even if the carbon wasn't needed it won't hurt so I'm glad I did that as a safety. 

[Cinnebuns]

@nabokovfan87 ok so I thought of another factor I forgot. When I got the tank it still had some residual substrate in it. I cleaned it out really well but it's impossible to get every grain. I was told it was sand mixed with planted substrate. I have been finding larger "crystals" than I otherwise find in other fry tanks. They look kinda like salt crystals but I doubt it's salt or it would dissolve. Thoughts?

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/22/2022 at 12:50 PM, Cinnebuns said:

ok so I thought of another factor I forgot. When I got the tank it still had some residual substrate in it. I cleaned it out really well but it's impossible to get every grain. I was told it was sand mixed with planted substrate. I have been finding larger "crystals" than I otherwise find in other fry tanks. They look kinda like salt crystals but I doubt it's salt or it would dissolve. Thoughts?

Could it have been used for saltwater previously and you're just having one heck of a bacteria mix right now?

Depending on local water, It could be hard water (stuff on the lid / rim that acts very similarly).  GH might be an indicator for that one.

I don't think having any "old substrate" would be doing anything like what you're seeing but it could mean you have less of a risk of chemical contamination.  If they didn't take the tank to the front yard and hose it off, it's likely they didn't use any harsh cleaners or anything on the inside.

It may also be crushed coral if its not translucent.

Edited May 22, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/22/2022 at 3:14 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Could it have been used for saltwater previously and you're just having one heck of a bacteria mix right now?

Depending on local water, It could be hard water (stuff on the lid / rim that acts very similarly).  GH might be an indicator for that one.

I don't think having any "old substrate" would be doing anything like what you're seeing but it could mean you have less of a risk of chemical contamination.  If they didn't take the tank to the front yard and hose it off, it's likely they didn't use any harsh cleaners or anything on the inside.

It may also be crushed coral if its not translucent.

It was used freshwater but our local water is SUUUUUPER hard. Mine comes out of the tap 19 GH and he's in in same town

[Brian]

I have kept saltwater aquariums years ago.  I can not think of anything that would survive in both environments that would cause this.  With that being said, some prior medications have been known to linger on.  
I bet it’s something simple.  Did you maybe not clean under the plastic rim? Maybe caused the cycle to start over? Prior to changing over the tank possible you had contaminants on your hands?  Soap?  
Good Luck

[Guppysnail]

On 5/22/2022 at 12:03 AM, Cinnebuns said:

start to get pale

Pale is a stress sign and catfish when not getting enough food go pale. Cory graze eat all day long vs binge eat like most fish. Try making sure they have food at all times to graze. Maybe cut back on cleaning. A bare bottom is harder on Cory because of no microfauna to eat. With just switching tanks any microfauna they were getting is gone. I also agree it could have been something used previously in the tank. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/23/2022 at 9:42 AM, Guppysnail said:

Pale is a stress sign and catfish when not getting enough food go pale. Cory graze eat all day long vs binge eat like most fish. Try making sure they have food at all times to graze. Maybe cut back on cleaning. A bare bottom is harder on Cory because of no microfauna to eat. With just switching tanks any microfauna they were getting is gone. I also agree it could have been something used previously in the tank. 

Yeah I thought of that the second I said "pale."  I was like "hmm..wouldn't any organism go pale if they aren't eating enough?"  I think what happened is my guppy population grew and therefore less food is getting to the bottom. 2 solutions I can think of. #1 I'm doing right now and #2 maybe later. 1.  Drop more sinking food in or food that will last longer like veggies and such. 2.  Stop keeping guppies and cories growing out together and get seperate tanks set up. 

For tank setup I'm thinking what might work is 10 gal for males, 10 gal for females, split 10 gal one side new fry and one side cories cause i don't get as many of those. Likely the culprit is I didnt adjust in time to my growing population. That said, one of my breeding females died so my growth is now in half. Which is fine lol. 

Side note:  after all this checklist of possibilities it looks like what @Cory asked right away may be the answer. Damn him for being right! Lol

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/23/2022 at 6:25 PM, Cinnebuns said:

Side note:  after all this checklist of possibilities it looks like what @Cory asked right away may be the answer. Damn him for being right! Lol

That's awesome, I'm glad you are making progress!

As a bit of a thing, if you can. Try to find some nano moss balls for the cory fry tank. They have cover they need and it helps to trap some mulm for them to graze on. Worked really well for my pandas.

Sera O nip spirulina tabs are great for that too and they turn into really fine powder if you drop just a little chunk or something and let it dissolve. Vibra bites would be my second food for them.

[Brandon p]

When I breed I try in to change and thing in the tank except small water changes. Asonn as there old enough to move to a grow out tank. If the conditions are right for the fish to lay I don’t see any reason to change much. Fort me the fish produce more if I don’t mess with this to much. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 5/24/2022 at 12:17 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

. Try to find some nano moss balls for the cory fry tank.

If you mean marimo moss balls I have that as well as Java moss. 

[Cinnebuns]

@nabokovfan87 @Guppysnail this honestly may be a case where we never know. I'm now not convinced it's starvation at least for snails, the cories are still up for debate. I moved the male guppies and all the snails to a different 10 gallon and kept feeding exactly the same. This means even less food as the tank did not have mulm built up. The snails look far healthier. They have more color and are moving around.

The first tank of issue is now not divided. It has female guppy fry (1 adult female), 2 panda cory juveniles and 1 snail that I know of along with eggs that had been laid when the snails were in there before. The 1 snails seems ok but i will be interested to see how this goes. Idk maybe there was something with the divide. 

May honestly be a case where we never know but at least things are looking up. 

[nabokovfan87]

I would run the guppies at the temp you have, drop the pandas and the snails to 73 degrees and then keep an eye on red gills and tank height.

They might have too much pressure trying to get to the height of the tank, wearing themselves out.

Lower temp, more success with food, more oxygen in the water might help the snails and Corys get over the hump.

You're correct though, it might be something where we don't really know what's going on. It could also be a mix of a few issues.

For the snail, all I could think was mineral issue, but I know you said your water was very hard. Maybe their food doesn't have enough calcium?

I hope you feel confident enough to say it isn't a result of the tank itself (chemical) but something else going on.