Rookie issues

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/15/2022 at 5:45 AM, Mark C. said:

Yep, he gone! He wedged himself up in the piece of driftwood and died. I couldn’t hardly get him out of there. I just don’t get it. Maybe I should just try to get a few Otos instead of another Pleco?

😩 I'm very sorry you're struggling and lost another fish. I reread the whole thread and I think for the time being it's best to just let's things settle and try to take a step back and figure out, double check, that everything is ok. The KH takes times to buffer, you've been doing a lot of water changes, and a lot of stuff is going on causing a lot of frustration (in both tanks).

If you can, let us know what each tank looks like, what the filter is in each tank, and let's just determine what the KH and PH is in both tanks as well as what you're doing on a daily or weekly basis right now.

The fish ultimately need stability, no matter what it is. So let's try to get that first before anything else. Whatever you decide to purchase needs to go through QT, which brings its own challenges as well.

Do you feel like the tanks themselves are cycled, buffered KH, stable PH, and are doing ok?

Did the RL have any ich spots?

[Mark C.]

The Rubber lip shows now signs of sickness at all. He looks good. 
 

Just tested my KH and PH. My KH turns from blue to yellow after one extra drop. So I guess that is 2 degrees of KH which I think is somewhere in the 30 something range of ppm. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what some of the parameters are because they colors are so close to each other. It looks like my PH has dropped some to around 6.6.  It may be time to change the coral out maybe? It has been a little higher. The coral has been in there about a month. 

The other fish in the tank are doing great. The angelfish I have had about 3 weeks or so now and she is doing awesome.  And except for those two rasboras that I cooked on a water change the others are thriving as well. Plants are thriving and growing like crazy. I had to cut the runner off the Amazon sword because it was growing out of the water. There is now some algae starting to build up on the glass surfaces. But overall it seems like the rest of the tank is doing pretty well. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:51 AM, Mark C. said:

Just tested my KH and PH. My KH turns from blue to yellow after one extra drop. So I guess that is 2 degrees of KH which I think is somewhere in the 30 something range of ppm. I have a hard time figuring out exactly what some of the parameters are because they colors are so close to each other. It looks like my PH has dropped some to around 6.6.  It may be time to change the coral out maybe? It has been a little higher. The coral has been in there about a month. 

Let me run a test on mine for comparison.  I have been trying another method to stabilize my KH as well. 

I did some research and I don't know how valid this is but BN can handle 2 dKH as a low up to harder water.  RL pleco requires a bit higher KH.  When I had mine I think it was about 100 ppm KH.  I had issues with BN, but I did have one of my two that lived after acclimation without issue.  The RL pleco, I had two, both acclimated fine, one died when I was having an equipment issue.

Have you modified the basket in any way on the tidal?  One issue is that the bypass might just be making the water not go through the bypass and not through the buffering media.  Hopefully someone else with a different filter (I have the tidal as well) can report back maybe what to look for when the crushed coral is used up and needs to be replaced.

Edit:  Here's mine.  I started at ~50 ppm and it drops off pretty quickly.  PH starts at 6.8 and drops off pretty quickly over a week.  WC help raise PH, but ultimately I would prefer to buffer KH slightly and have some stability.  Even if it's just limiting from 6.8 down to 6.5 as the drop instead of 6.8 down to 6.2 normally.

Edited June 15, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

I was searching on google and found this clip that might be relevant.  I'll end up re-watching but it's talking about the struggle you're going through. (should start at the right time, about 22 minutes in)
 

 

[Mark C.]

On 6/15/2022 at 4:15 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Let me run a test on mine for comparison.  I have been trying another method to stabilize my KH as well. 

I did some research and I don't know how valid this is but BN can handle 2 dKH as a low up to harder water.  RL pleco requires a bit higher KH.  When I had mine I think it was about 100 ppm KH.  I had issues with BN, but I did have one of my two that lived after acclimation without issue.  The RL pleco, I had two, both acclimated fine, one died when I was having an equipment issue.

Have you modified the basket in any way on the tidal?  One issue is that the bypass might just be making the water not go through the bypass and not through the buffering media.  Hopefully someone else with a different filter (I have the tidal as well) can report back maybe what to look for when the crushed coral is used up and needs to be replaced.

I have not made any mods to my basket yet. I have watched your videos and stuff about the changes but haven’t done any of them yet. Hopefully someone else can tell me about the crushed coral, how to know when it needs to be changed!

Maybe a BN would actually make it? I just don’t know man. This is all stuff that you should really figure out a lot earlier than I did lol

[nabokovfan87]

I think you're at the point where I just want to make sure you're ok with the tank, the tank is "stable" and over time KH will raise up.  If you're seeing major issues still or changing water daily, or dosing prime daily, it's not a good situation to try to acclimate a fish.

I updated the post above with results. I'm running crushed coral, and then during each WC I buffer the water with a dose of Alkalinity buffer (seachem).  Thankfully it was on sale randomly so I was able to get some.

[Mark C.]

On 6/15/2022 at 4:47 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think you're at the point where I just want to make sure you're ok with the tank, the tank is "stable" and over time KH will raise up.  If you're seeing major issues still or changing water daily, or dosing prime daily, it's not a good situation to try to acclimate a fish.

I updated the post above with results. I'm running crushed coral, and then during each WC I buffer the water with a dose of Alkalinity buffer (seachem).  Thankfully it was on sale randomly so I was able to get some.

Yeah I’m not dosing anything in the tank at all really. And I haven’t done a water change in the tank in roughly 2 weeks or so. So I feel like the tank is pretty stable that’s why it doesn’t make sense. However I see that my PH has drop some so maybe it is the crushed coral. I guess it can’t hurt anything to replace the crushed coral and see if it helps in the next few days

I haven’t had any ammonia issues or anything in a little while. So I haven’t been putting any chemicals in

[Mark C.]

On 6/15/2022 at 4:47 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think you're at the point where I just want to make sure you're ok with the tank, the tank is "stable" and over time KH will raise up.  If you're seeing major issues still or changing water daily, or dosing prime daily, it's not a good situation to try to acclimate a fish.

I updated the post above with results. I'm running crushed coral, and then during each WC I buffer the water with a dose of Alkalinity buffer (seachem).  Thankfully it was on sale randomly so I was able to get some.

Would I need the alkalinity buffer in my water going into the tank, the freshwater? My pH out of the tap is almost 8 but the KH brings it way down. I wouldn’t think I’d want to raise the pH I just need to raise the KH and that should bring it up together, I would think?

[Torrey]

On 6/15/2022 at 2:45 PM, Mark C. said:

Hopefully someone else can tell me about the crushed coral, how to know when it needs to be changed!

I never replaced my crushed coral when I lived in WA, I just added more as the minerals dissolved in the water. I have found in the past (and may need to start up again as our water authority has changed something that lowered the KH out of the tap, but our GH is still over 300+) when I lived in states with lower KH, that keeping a Rubbermaid trashcan full of water for water changes, with an airstone and crushed coral in it, kept my water parameters much more stable. The airstone allows offgassing so CO2 isn't affecting pH, the crushed coral in a filter sock with the airstone underneath it dissolves the minerals, and the water is stabilized before doing the water change. It makes dechlorination easier, too.

Currently, I have one tank (nano for shrimp) that I had gotten stable (and uses ZeroWater + Salty Shrimp)) but I had a flare that prevented regular maintenance and now I am losing plants... so there is an imbalance in a tank that is over 2 years established... it happens. 

My first clue something was wrong, was zero nitrates, followed by no new algae growth anywhere, followed by plants melting (that were established  months ago). I'm making small changes, only one change every 3 to 6 weeks, until everything is back in balance, and then once homeostasis is regained I'll get the rest of the shrimp from the breeder.

Slow is the fastest route to success. Try to be patient, give yourself a little grace because it is physically impossible to know what you don't know (I managed to underfeed my shrimp and snail tank during my flare, so now I have to restabilize... who knew?) and the day any of us quits learning is when the casket needs to be ordered.

I really like Cory's videos on seasoned tanks versus cycled tanks, because they explain the difference and the impact on stability. If KH is identified as part of the problem, try a Rubbermaid trashcan on wheels to pretreat & prestabilize your water.

No need to remove "spent" crushed coral, just top off the filter sock if it's in the filter (and make sure the water can't bypass the filter sock) or add fresh to the substrate. And until you find the homeostasis sweet spot, the tank and beneficial bacteria will appreciate only one change at a time:

Water change *or* clean a filter

Clean one layer of filtration, not all layers

Only one change for a couple of weeks to monitor how it affects stability (meaning don't start the Rubbermaid trashcan *and* SeaChem buffer at the same time. Try one, give it 3 to 6 weeks, see what happens)

 

Or, as my momma used to say, "Patience is a virtue, virtue is a Grace, Grace is a little girl who wouldn't wash her face"

Patience is hard for me, too.... Planted tanks made waiting for fish infinitely much easier.... as did embracing snails.

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:53 PM, Mark C. said:

Yeah I’m not dosing anything in the tank at all really. And I haven’t done a water change in the tank in roughly 2 weeks or so. So I feel like the tank is pretty stable that’s why it doesn’t make sense. However I see that my PH has drop some so maybe it is the crushed coral. I guess it can’t hurt anything to replace the crushed coral and see if it helps in the next few days

I think it's good then. Bi-weekly changes. Aq Advisor might be a good place for "how much" to change per time. And then let's give the tank some time to see if KH and stuff holds steady or if it's going to drop off before you have to mess with the coral. The video I saw said the expected time is 3 months or so in a HoB and someone in this thread earlier (or another) gave the same report back as for use.

Let's see what the tank does and give it a chance.

Before any water change, test your KH and PH and let's keep track.

On 6/15/2022 at 1:58 PM, Mark C. said:

Would I need the alkalinity buffer in my water going into the tank, the freshwater? My pH out of the tap is almost 8 but the KH brings it way down. I wouldn’t think I’d want to raise the pH I just need to raise the KH and that should bring it up together, I would think?

So the "real PH" of your water is going to be whatever the PH is after 24 hours of aeration. After things off gas.

My focus has been to ultimately try to stabilize PH by stabilizing my KH.

Adding the buffer during WC adds the KH slowly over time and hopefully soon it's at a level where I can just maintain it and the crushed coral or buffer itself will do that for me. I'm not sure which. Preconditioning the water with the buffer is also another route.

Essentially, if you have high PH water, no KH, you add that water to your tank. Because of the bioload it's going to drop the PH quickly if you don't have any buffering to hold some of that bioload (KH = your trashcan).  So to answer the question, yes, adding the buffer helps. But you are adding the buffer. We just need to give it time and make sure it's increasing.  If it's not, then we'd know that by tracking and be able to decide to add the buffer or add more crushed coral.

Edited June 15, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Tanked]

On 6/15/2022 at 8:45 AM, Mark C. said:

Yep, he gone! He wedged himself up in the piece of driftwood and died. I couldn’t hardly get him out of there. I just don’t get it. Maybe I should just try to get a few Otos instead of another Pleco?

I'm also considering Otos.  In the past I have lost two plecos in as many days, in an otherwise healthy tank.  They seemed to be healthy, then on separate days they rolled over on there sides and were no longer able to remain upright.  I hope someone can come up with a more definitive answer to your pleco problem. 

[Mark C.]

I’m back to having an ammonia issue in my 10G. I’m wondering if I need a bigger sponge filter or if I just need to add another one? I have an Aquarium Co-op Small sponge filter in there and 5 or 6 plants. I would think the plants would do more. I don’t feel like we are over feeding them at all. 
This fish keeping stuff isn’t that easy at first. Dang. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/20/2022 at 7:15 PM, Mark C. said:

This fish keeping stuff isn’t that easy at first. Dang

Definitely gets easier. I'm sorry you're struggling.

On 6/20/2022 at 7:15 PM, Mark C. said:

I don’t feel like we are over feeding them at all. 

When you're feeding them, are you noticing a lot of food on the substrate after 10-15 minutes? A little bit is fine, but are you noticing a lot?

On 6/20/2022 at 7:15 PM, Mark C. said:

I’m back to having an ammonia issue in my 10G.

Don't waste a test or anything, but do you recall what the test results were? Did you test nitrite and nitrate?

[Mark C.]

When feeding them I do notice a small amount on the substrate, but not a lot. I’m trying to be very cautious about over feeding them. 
 

it was between .5 and 1 ppm. I did not test the other two this time but I will today. All I have right now is the Master Test kit. 

[nabokovfan87]

Sounds good. I'm curious what is really going on. Like you mentioned before, maybe you just need more sponge or something in there to give it a kick.

 

@Torreyhhave you ever had a situation like this where things just never stayed cycled?

[Mark C.]

On 6/21/2022 at 6:28 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Sounds good. I'm curious what is really going on. Like you mentioned before, maybe you just need more sponge or something in there to give it a kick.

 

@Torreyhhave you ever had a situation like this where things just never stayed cycled?

Yeah I don’t know man. The water is crystal clear. I haven’t done any water changes in this tank since I was last having this issue like 2 weeks ago. I just ran all the water tests except for KH because I know that’s low because I haven’t ever had any coral in the 10 gallon. My PH is still super low but that’s nothing new. My ammonia has come down a little bit. Looks to be between .25 and .5 to me. Zero Trites. Some but not a lot of Trates!

The fish seem great. My Betta is doing well. There are a couple of super plump Cherry Barbs in there. A few glow light tetras that look good then the one Rummy Nose Tetra that survived when I had those in there. 

[nabokovfan87]

Plants might be using up the nitrates, but it would be nice to say that and see 0 on the ammonia.

I would just keep tracking ammonia and see if it goes up or down. The low PH is good for this situation too.

[Torrey]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:24 PM, Mark C. said:

Yeah I don’t know man. The water is crystal clear. I haven’t done any water changes in this tank since I was last having this issue like 2 weeks ago. I just ran all the water tests except for KH because I know that’s low because I haven’t ever had any coral in the 10 gallon. My PH is still super low but that’s nothing new. My ammonia has come down a little bit. Looks to be between .25 and .5 to me. Zero Trites. Some but not a lot of Trates!

The fish seem great. My Betta is doing well. There are a couple of super plump Cherry Barbs in there. A few glow light tetras that look good then the one Rummy Nose Tetra that survived when I had those in there. 

That looks like pH of 6.0? or is it lower? Doing a reverse filter on your picture makes it easier to see.

Which may be the problem. Lower pH, the acidic water keeps the ammonia in a safer form which is helpful as the bacteria don't grow as well (the ammonia compromises the integrity of the bacteria). You may have found your answer, it's been too long since I have lived anywhere that didn't have liquid rock (it took me almost a year and an incredible amount of tannins to get *one* of my tanks down to 6.8 pH) to remember the chemistry regarding pH, ammonia, and plant health.

Essentially, there may be too low pH for the plants to adequately uptake all of the available ammonia from the food left over. I generally ghost feed my tanks for about 6 months before thinking about adding live creatures, and I feed for what I want to have, so by the time I add fish the tank is stable. Until I fail epically at an experiment... like lowering TDS to get rid of cyanobacteria, lol

[Mark C.]

On 6/22/2022 at 4:15 AM, Torrey said:

That looks like pH of 6.0? or is it lower? Doing a reverse filter on your picture makes it easier to see.

Which may be the problem. Lower pH, the acidic water keeps the ammonia in a safer form which is helpful as the bacteria don't grow as well (the ammonia compromises the integrity of the bacteria). You may have found your answer, it's been too long since I have lived anywhere that didn't have liquid rock (it took me almost a year and an incredible amount of tannins to get *one* of my tanks down to 6.8 pH) to remember the chemistry regarding pH, ammonia, and plant health.

Essentially, there may be too low pH for the plants to adequately uptake all of the available ammonia from the food left over. I generally ghost feed my tanks for about 6 months before thinking about adding live creatures, and I feed for what I want to have, so by the time I add fish the tank is stable. Until I fail epically at an experiment... like lowering TDS to get rid of cyanobacteria, lol

So should I try to buffer the water in any way to increase my KH which will raise the PH some? Or should I just leave it alone and monitor it to make sure the ammonia doesn't get higher? I have been dosing the tank with Prime to keep it less toxic.

[Torrey]

On 6/22/2022 at 12:46 PM, Mark C. said:

So should I try to buffer the water in any way to increase my KH which will raise the PH some? Or should I just leave it alone and monitor it to make sure the ammonia doesn't get higher? I have been dosing the tank with Prime to keep it less toxic.

Depends on what species you are keeping, goals long term, how much you enjoy stress, etc.

You have an opportunity for a science experiment, and you can just test, observe, monitor.

You have an opportunity to add crushed coral, or some other long term stabilizer, and see how that efffects your cycle.

The world (or in this case your fish tank) is literally your oyster, and you get decide which pearl you want to grow:

low pH testing and observations? means more work monitoring, and can also be fun!

add KH? can alleviate worry and also be fun!

I do know that if you make your decision out of a fear of failure, you are 90% more likely to experience what you fear. So literally, my recommendation is pick the path that you think you will have the most fun with, commit fully, and embrace whatever happens as a hilariously entertaining learning opprotunity.

It keeps the hobby more fun that way.🤷🏼‍♂️

[Not everyone appreciates my sense of humor, so results vary wildly]

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/22/2022 at 11:53 AM, Torrey said:

You have an opportunity to add crushed coral, or some other long term stabilizer, and see how that efffects your cycle.

He added crushed coral to the HoB and got KH from 0 to about 20ppm.  Unfortunately with water changes and so forth it's back down to near 0 it seems.

I would grab a bottle of the seachem alkaline buffer and try that whenever you change water. Obviously start slow, but it's pretty easy to use in my experience once you determine how much to add each WC.

It's been off/on sale on Amazon and I ended up getting the big bottle for $20.  I use a 1/8 tsp to dose mine. Anywhere between 1/2 up to 1 tsp per WC depending on volume.

If what @Torreywas saying makes sense, low PH like that is causing the bacteria issues, fix KH, fixes PH and you won't have the absolutely major crashes you're experience day in and day out.

[Mark C.]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:53 PM, Torrey said:

Depends on what species you are keeping, goals long term, how much you enjoy stress, etc.

You have an opportunity for a science experiment, and you can just test, observe, monitor.

You have an opportunity to add crushed coral, or some other long term stabilizer, and see how that efffects your cycle.

The world (or in this case your fish tank) is literally your oyster, and you get decide which pearl you want to grow:

low pH testing and observations? means more work monitoring, and can also be fun!

add KH? can alleviate worry and also be fun!

I do know that if you make your decision out of a fear of failure, you are 90% more likely to experience what you fear. So literally, my recommendation is pick the path that you think you will have the most fun with, commit fully, and embrace whatever happens as a hilariously entertaining learning opprotunity.

It keeps the hobby more fun that way.🤷🏼‍♂️

[Not everyone appreciates my sense of humor, so results vary wildly]

Well thanks for all of those options. I have used the same water in this tank from the beginning so I feel like the fish are adapted to it but I also have a fear that my wife will shoot me if her Betta dies lol. I think I will leave it alone and maybe do one or two smaller water changes per week and see what happens? The fish all seem to be fine. There are two ghost shrimp in there that don't look so hot. Their bodies look frosted white with a hint of blue but they are still kicking. But the other fish are thriving at this point. So I'm just going to keep on keeping on until I notice the fish in some sort of distress. Then I will make some other serious moves. I'm already having to battle with my 29 gallon tank to keep the KH levels up a little to buffer the water. I don't need a secondary issue right now. I have only been in this fish game for a few months now. I'm just wondering when it's gonna get easier lol. But I can say, I have already learned so much so it's already less sucky so I have high hopes!

[nabokovfan87]

On 6/22/2022 at 12:42 PM, Mark C. said:

Their bodies look frosted white with a hint of blue but they are still kicking. But the other fish are thriving at this point.

Could just be molting time.

 

On 6/22/2022 at 12:42 PM, Mark C. said:

I'm already having to battle with my 29 gallon tank to keep the KH levels up a little to buffer the water. I don't need a secondary issue right now.

Does the Betta tank have crushed coral? It would be a good candidate to add some (more) to the substrate if she doesn't mind the white.

Edited June 22, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Mark C.]

On 6/22/2022 at 3:45 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Could just be molting time.

 

Does the Betta tank have crushed coral? It would be a good candidate to add some (more) to the substrate if she doesn't mind the white.

The betta tank is the 10 gallon and no it doesn't have any crushed coral. It's the one that I am having the ammonia issue in. But if the low PH is making the ammonia less toxic then it makes me feel better.

It has black sand as a substrate.

[nabokovfan87]

If you don't want to add crushed coral, I'd recommend the buffer mentioned above. You control where the KH goes and it's easy to use.

You can raise KH, reduce PH too.

That being said, the whole problem originally was starting with very high PH and having it go from 8->6 (or below 6) and having issues. If you get KH higher than 0, you get PH higher than 6, you'll be doing ok. The PH you want to avoid with ammonia showing is well over 7 I believe.