Phosphates too low

[Tommy Vercetti]

I have 14 gallon cube, 4 months old. Heavily planted, pressurized co2 injected, chihiros wrgb2 light running at 80%, fluval stratum substrate, dosing easy green at 5 pumps every other day, water change 50% once every week.

Ammonia 0

Nitrites 0

Nitrates 20 to 30 ppm

Ph 7.2

dKH 7

Phosphates 0 (using api liquid test kit)

Plant list; S repens, dwarf baby tears carpet, cabomba, alternanthera reineckii, water sprite, pearl weed, cardinal plant, Monte Carlo, hygrophila pinnatifida, and a few other plants that I don't know the names of.

 

Live stock: 7 Panda Corydoras, 9 cherry barbs, 3 pygmy cory doras, 3 male guppies, 5 guppy fry (from a female that was moved to another tank). 6 amano shrimp, 3 neocardina shrimp, estimated 10 to 15 bladder snails.

I have staghorn algae (I think). I have been spot treating it with seachem excel (1.5 ml everyday). That treatment does kill the algae but it has become a game of wack-a-mole. The algae just pops up somewhere else in the tank. I was told by my local and respected fish shop that low phosphates may be the cause of this algae. 

I don't know where to start should I just start with seachem Phosphorus and see where that goes? Maybe I am way off base. 

 

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Tommy Vercetti

[Tommy Vercetti]

[Tommy Vercetti]

I forgot to mention the photo period is a total of 8 hrs with a 1 hour ramp up and a 1 hour ramp down 

[Mmiller2001]

This is the point where dry fertilizers make sense. You can definitely use Seachem, but you are paying a large some of money for something you can buy for pennies.

This is what I would recommend. 

https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/mono-potassium-phosphate-kh2po4-1lb-bag.html

I would also look at buying the EI package, in jars and start learning Estimative Index dosing.

That said, the tank looks pretty good.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Tommy Vercetti]

Thanks, for your help. I will order that and cross my fingers. I have been researching this all morning and I think I will try to target phosphates at 2ppm.

[Tommy Vercetti]

Should I just go ahead an buy this kit: (can't post links because I am new) GLA PRO PPS ?

[Tommy Vercetti]

On 2/27/2022 at 11:07 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

This is the point where dry fertilizers make sense. You can definitely use Seachem, but you are paying a large some of money for something you can buy for pennies.

This is what I would recommend. 

https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/mono-potassium-phosphate-kh2po4-1lb-bag.html

I would also look at buying the EI package, in jars and start learning Estimative Index dosing.

That said, the tank looks pretty good.

I guess I need EDTA+DTPA because my PH is 7.2 before my co2 kicks on. Then ph is 6.4 when the co2 turns off. Is this correct? That would be this kit:

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Tommy Vercetti

[Mmiller2001]

That's the cheapest option, and yes the EDTA + DPTA is what I would use. 

You may not need the MgSO4, but if you ever move to RO water, it's what I use too.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Tommy Vercetti]

On 2/27/2022 at 11:49 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

That's the cheapest option, and yes the EDTA + DPTA is what I would use. 

You may not need the MgSO4, but if you ever move to RO water, it's what I use too.

Okay, I have it ordered. Thanks again! 

[Mmiller2001]

On 2/27/2022 at 12:56 PM, Tommy Vercetti said:

Okay, I have it ordered. Thanks again! 

Np, if you have any questions on how to do calculations or anything, let me know.

But here's a link.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/fertilize-planted-tank/mixing-dry-aquarium-fertilisers

[Tommy Vercetti]

Thank you for link. I will study while I wait for delivery of the GLA kit. Shipping was steep ($$$) so I went ahead and paid for 2 day shipping to help me cope with the sting. 

[Jennifer V]

I have nothing to add -- it's way out of my scope of understanding -- but I have to tell you, algae or not, your tank is really beautiful. Great job! 😊

[Tommy Vercetti]

On 2/27/2022 at 1:09 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Np, if you have any questions on how to do calculations or anything, let me know.

But here's a link.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/fertilize-planted-tank/mixing-dry-aquarium-fertilisers

Okay Mmiller2001, I need a little help.

I have used the calculator to learn the quantity of fertilizers to use in my 500ml bottles. I could not find GLA micros on the Drop-down list, so i did some research and found that "Plant-Prod Chelated Micronutrient Mix" is exactly that same listed ingredients and that product is on the calculator's list. 

 I would like to try EI dosing of an arbitrary 15ml daily (alternating macros one day the micros the following day Etc.) Below is my recipe for the mix. Could you please have a look and let me know if this looks okay to you? I am a newb after all and it could not hurt to get an expert to weigh in with advice. Please let me know what you think. Thank you!

 

Macros:
To reach your target of 7.5ppm NO3 you will need to add 21.6 grams (equivalent to 3 tsp + 1/8 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp ) of KNO3 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 14gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
KNO3        7.5
13.7 - 0 - 46
N        1.69
K        4.73

To reach your target of 1.3ppm PO4 you will need to add 3.29 grams (equivalent to 1/2 tsp + 1/16 tsp + 1/64 tsp ) of KH2PO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 14gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
KH2PO4     1.3
0 - 52 - 34
P        0.42
K        0.54

To reach your target of 7.5ppm K you will need to add 29.53 grams (equivalent to 1 tbsp + 1 tsp + 1/2 tsp + 1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp ) of K2SO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 14gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
K2SO4        7.5
0 - 0 - 52
S        3.08
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI. Classic EI depends on good CO2, good circulation, and regular water changes. Light past moderation is not so important.

Micros:
To reach your target of 0.2ppm Fe you will need to add 5.05 grams (equivalent to 1 tsp + 1/8 tsp ) of Plant-Prod Chelated (same as GLA EDTA+DTPA "Chelated Iron (Fe) (actual) 7%, Chelated Manganese (Mn) (actual) 2%, Chelated Zinc (Zn) (actual) 0.4%, Chelated Copper (Cu) (actual) 0.1%, Boron (B) (actual) 1.3%, Molybdenum (Mo) (actual) 0.06%, EDTA (Ethylene diamine tetraacetate) 42%, DTPA (Diethylene triamine pentaacetate) 14%"  to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 14gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
Fe    0.2
Fe as EDTA    0.12
Fe as DTPA    0.04
Mn    0.057
Zn    0.011
Cu    0.003
B    0.037
Mo    0.002
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI. Classic EI depends on good CO2, good circulation, and regular water changes. Light past moderation is not so important.

 

[Mmiller2001]

I'll need to be at my PC to double check and that will be later tonight. 

I messaged GLA some time ago and asked them what to use, in calculator, when working with the EDTA DPTA mix. They told me to use Plantex CSMB. Try messaging them to confirm which one is right. 

Otherwise, I will check the above numbers tonight.

FYI, you can just throw the dry powder right into the tank if you don't want to mix a solution. Seems like every time I made a solution, I wanted to change a number a few weeks later. It was annoying after some time. 😆

[Tommy Vercetti]

Thank you!

 

Guaranteed Analysis:
Green Leaf Aquarium EDTA+DTPA Micromix
Chelated Iron (actual) (Fe) - 7.0%
Chelated Manganese (actual) (Mn) - 2.0%
Chelated Zinc (actual) (Zn) - 0.4%
Chelated Copper (actual) (Cu) - 0.1%
Molybdenum (actual) (Mo) - 0.06%
Boron (actual) (B) - 1.3%
EDTA (Ethylene diamine tetraacetate) - 42%
DTPA (Diethylene triamine pentaacetate) - 14%

Guaranteed Minimum Analysis
Plant-Prod Chelated Micronutrient Mix
Chelated Iron (Fe) (actual)    7%
Chelated Manganese (Mn) (actual)    2%
Chelated Zinc (Zn) (actual)    0.4%
Chelated Copper (Cu) (actual)    0.1%
Boron (B) (actual)    1.3%
Molybdenum (Mo) (actual)    0.06%
EDTA (Ethylene diamine tetraacetate)    42%
DTPA (Diethylene triamine pentaacetate)    14%

 

[Mmiller2001]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:49 PM, Tommy Vercetti said:

Thank you!

 

Guaranteed Analysis:
Green Leaf Aquarium EDTA+DTPA Micromix
Chelated Iron (actual) (Fe) - 7.0%
Chelated Manganese (actual) (Mn) - 2.0%
Chelated Zinc (actual) (Zn) - 0.4%
Chelated Copper (actual) (Cu) - 0.1%
Molybdenum (actual) (Mo) - 0.06%
Boron (actual) (B) - 1.3%
EDTA (Ethylene diamine tetraacetate) - 42%
DTPA (Diethylene triamine pentaacetate) - 14%

Guaranteed Minimum Analysis
Plant-Prod Chelated Micronutrient Mix
Chelated Iron (Fe) (actual)    7%
Chelated Manganese (Mn) (actual)    2%
Chelated Zinc (Zn) (actual)    0.4%
Chelated Copper (Cu) (actual)    0.1%
Boron (B) (actual)    1.3%
Molybdenum (Mo) (actual)    0.06%
EDTA (Ethylene diamine tetraacetate)    42%
DTPA (Diethylene triamine pentaacetate)    14%

 

Makes sense. I'm going to have to message them. They told me wrong!

[Mmiller2001]

They just got back to me and you want to use the drop down Plant Prod micro mix. 

[Tommy Vercetti]

Thanks I will do that. 

 

 

Nice, it works out to the same 5.05 grams.

[Mmiller2001]

Alright, just got home and everything looks correct calculator wise. Those additions to 500ml of RO* water are all correct but I see a few problems.

Firstly, your 14 gallon tank is not 14 gallons. You have substrate, rocks and other items that displace the water. To give you an example, I have calculated my 75 gallon to be about 66 actual gallons + or -. Measure from the top of your substrate to the water line, then measure length and depth. Then calculate LxWxH(from top of substrate to waterline) then divide by 231. This will give you a close true gallonage. You will also need to guesstimate plants, fish, decor and subtract from the total. Also keep in mind filter and reactor volumes. You then use this number for gallons in Rotala.

Secondly, Your numbers are a bit steep and I will explain why. There's 2 sets of numbers going on. There are dosing numbers and accumulation totals. If you have an inert aquarium with 10 gallons of water in it and you dose 10ppm NO3 every week and change 50% of the water every week; you can never exceed 20ppm NO3. This goes for everything we dose.

10ppm NO3/50% water change=5ppm NO3 (Week 1)

5ppm NO3+10ppm NO3=15ppmNO3/50%change=7.5ppm NO3 (week 2)

7.5ppm NO3+10ppm NO3=17.5ppm NO3/50%change=8.75ppm NO3 (week 3)

8.75ppm NO3+10ppm NO3=18.75ppm NO3/50%change=9.375ppm NO3 (week 4)

9.375ppm NO3+10ppm NO3=19.375ppm NO3/50%change=9.6875ppm NO3 (week 5)

9.6875ppm NO3+10ppm No3=19.6875ppm NO3 and so on and so on. You will always approach 2 times the dose and at some point, way down the road, you will finally get there but those number get tiring, right!

However, our tanks aren't inert. We have fish and plants. But that's okay, EI dosing covers these issues by dosing more than enough and 50% water changes resets nutrients. Let's look at your totals

You are dosing per day:

7.5ppm NO3

1.3ppm PO4

12.77ppm K

Per week total:

7.5x3=22.5ppm NO3 or 45ppm NO3 accumulation

1.3x3=3.9ppm PO4 or 7.8ppm PO4 accumulation

12.77x3=38ppm K or 76.62ppm K accumulation. 

The above numbers are too high.

Going back, we have fish and plants. Plants consume, fish produce. And if we assume we have even less than 14 gallons, these numbers really get out of control. So you will want to make adjustments to account for this. 

Personally, I didn't want to go out and buy every test. It's expensive and using EI removes the need for testing. I like to think about my accumulation totals. Where is it that I want my parameters to be? If I want 20ppm in my tank, then I dose 10ppm per week. I can divide that out however many days I want to. If we use EI as a guide, we dose every 3 days. So 10ppm/3=3.33ppm NO3 each dose. Now I do have all the tests 😂 and have tested the tank out of curiosity. I have found, with my plant and stocking levels, that my tank/s consume. So if I put in 10ppm NO3, at weeks end (before water change) I have less than 10ppm NO3. So, I adjust up on that weekly total so that I can hit my 20ppm accumulation totals.

Your NO3 is high, I'd might start with a 5ppm per dose, that's 15ppm per week with a 30ppm accumulation total. If you see GDA, drop that by 2ppm every couple of weeks and the GDA should go away. Your PO4 dosing looks great, plenty of room there to work with. K, I would shoot for no more than 30ppm accumulation, so same dosing as NO3. Start there and see what happens. If you want to slow growth down, go lower, if you want to speed growth up, go higher. Usually just adjusting NO3 up and down is all you need to do.

For micros, don't calculate accumulation totals. Just calculate per week dose and divide by the days you want to dose. I've found .4ppm Fe (as proxy) is my sweet spot, but .6 was fine too, it's just puts the other micros (Cu, B, Mn ect.) a bit high. When I dropped to .4, magic happened, but milage may vary! 

Hopefully this wasn't too long winded or just explained what you already know! 😁

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Tommy Vercetti]

Thank you, I will take your advice. I have been shooting for 20 ppm to 40 ppm N03 with the Easygreen. I do have Phosphate test and I don't mind buying other test if needed. The way you explained the dosing and accumulated totals makes much more sense than any other source of my research thus far. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me.

I have a busy weekend but hopefully I find the time to rework my calculations and start my EI dosing schedule on Monday.

Once again, thank you. I realize that was a lot of effort for no reward and I am grateful. I am a diesel technician and automotive mechanic so if there is ever any information that you need, from my field of expertise, I would be more than happy to oblige. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Tommy Vercetti
sp

[Mmiller2001]

On 3/4/2022 at 10:38 PM, Tommy Vercetti said:

Thank you, I will take your advice. I have been shooting for 20 ppm to 40 ppm N03 with the Easygreen. I do have Phosphate test and I don't mind buying other test if needed. The way you explained the dosing and accumulated totals makes much more sense than any other source of my research thus far. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me.

I have a busy weekend but hopefully I find the time to rework my calculations and start my EI dosing schedule on Monday.

Once again, thank you. I realize that was a lot of effort for no reward and I am grateful. I am a diesel technician and automotive mechanic so if there is ever any information that you need, from my field of expertise, I would be more than happy to oblige. 

I'm a nerd, this is fun to for me. Absolutely no problem 😆

When I was using the recommendation for EI (GLA charts and such) I would get rapid growth but GDA came with it. I would try the higher numbers just so you can see how it effects growth.

I recently tried Mr. Wong's numbers and I think he's right in the sweet spot. I had no GDA, slower growth and the tank really liked these levels.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/beginners-planted-tank-101/how-much-to-dose?_pos=4&_sid=99734e597&_ss=r 

All I test these days is Nitrates and phosphate. They are easy and luckily, we can dose potassium high with little negative effects. I've gone as high as 30ppm a week. Honestly, I was just wasting salts, I saw no improvement. 

The picture I'm posting consumed (potassium) 15ppm a week and I dosed 25ppm a week. I think most people would be very safe dosing 25ppm K.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Tommy Vercetti]

WOW, that aquarium is beautiful!

 

I found some time to recalculate my fertilizer recipe and have come up with the following:

 

Macros:
To reach your target of 5ppm NO3 you will need to add 12.34 grams of KNO3 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
KNO3        5
13.7 - 0 - 46
N        1.13
K        3.15

To reach your target of 1.3ppm PO4 you will need to add 2.82 grams of KH2PO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
KH2PO4     1.3
0 - 52 - 34
P        0.42
K        0.54

To reach your target of 5ppm K you will need to add 16.87 grams of K2SO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
K2SO4        5
0 - 0 - 52
S        2.05
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI. Classic EI depends on good CO2, good circulation, and regular water changes. Light past moderation is not so important.

Micros:
To reach your target of 0.133ppm Fe you will need to add 2.88 grams of Plant-Prod Micro Mix (Green leaf Aquarium EDTA+DTPA to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
Fe    0.133
Fe as EDTA    0.076
Mg    0.089
Zn    0.008
Cu    0.002
B    0.025
Mo    0.001
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI. Classic EI depends on good CO2, good circulation, and regular water changes. Light past moderation is not so important.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Right @Tommy Vercetti? @Mmiller2001's tanks are nothing less than gorgeous. He should be in COMPETITIONS! 😉 

[Mmiller2001]

On 3/5/2022 at 6:57 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

He should be in COMPETITIONS! 😉

I see what you did there! Updates coming. Hint: Moss wall being built now and should be in this week <wink>.

 

On 3/5/2022 at 6:53 PM, Tommy Vercetti said:

WOW, that aquarium is beautiful!

 

I found some time to recalculate my fertilizer recipe and have come up with the following:

 

Macros:
To reach your target of 5ppm NO3 you will need to add 12.34 grams of KNO3 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
KNO3        5
13.7 - 0 - 46
N        1.13
K        3.15

To reach your target of 1.3ppm PO4 you will need to add 2.82 grams of KH2PO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
KH2PO4     1.3
0 - 52 - 34
P        0.42
K        0.54

To reach your target of 5ppm K you will need to add 16.87 grams of K2SO4 to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
K2SO4        5
0 - 0 - 52
S        2.05
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI. Classic EI depends on good CO2, good circulation, and regular water changes. Light past moderation is not so important.

Micros:
To reach your target of 0.133ppm Fe you will need to add 2.88 grams of Plant-Prod Micro Mix (Green leaf Aquarium EDTA+DTPA to your 500mL dosing container. Add 15mL of that mix to your 12gal aquarium to yield:
Element    ppm/degree
Fe    0.133
Fe as EDTA    0.076
Mg    0.089
Zn    0.008
Cu    0.002
B    0.025
Mo    0.001
Dose these levels 2-4 times a week for EI. Classic EI depends on good CO2, good circulation, and regular water changes. Light past moderation is not so important.

That looks real good and should be a good starting point. To be completely honest, don't be afraid to dose more or less. Try both so you can see how it effects your tank. But always give any change at least 3 weeks before you make a judgement call. If you start dosing these numbers, expect your plants to get made at you. To quote my hero Greggz, "plants love stability", and this new fertilization method may cause a temporary temper tantrum. So don't get discouraged. I would, if you could, get a TDS meter and start analyzing your source water and tank water. A TDS meter is an amazing tool to analyze consistency.

When I was also trying to figure out how to make fertilizer solutions, Mrs. Walstad (allegedly) advised me that a larger dosing volume is more accurate. So maybe look into mixing 1000L bottles and dosing 20ml to 30ml doses. Again FYI.

Best of luck and keep us updated.

And thank you. My tanks were never possible without people helping me. I say it often and I will say it here. "I cheated my way to a decent tank". My progress was never possible with out amazing journals posted by top aquarists. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Mmiller2001]

I you don't know who Greggz is; here you go.

https://scapecrunch.com/gregg-zydeck/