Plant Nutrients

[Guppysnail]

Readings off today. I forgot to plug the hob I had the purigen in back in. Not part of the norm. The marine lands in other tanks seem to work better than aquaclears 29 and other tanks. 29 nitrate am prefeed 37.9 up 3 pts pho’s down only slightly. A few more gsa spots so I upped that tank to 4 pho’s. I added 2 purigen packs to the 407 canister. Tested 5 -6 hours later 20.4. Both readings verified with coop and api liquid. So I’m pleased. 

40 nitrate only rose 1 pt even without purigen but pho’s went from appx3 down to one so plants are kicking back in. Also increased that one to 4 pho’s so I don’t run out. 

Ordered purigen for the other 5 fluval cans today. Iron should be here tomorrow. Found more new growth but it not showing the reds and pinks the way it used to so looking forward to iron and the dry fertz. 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Guppysnail]

@Mmiller2001, @Seattle_Aquarist

Please bear with me on this very long explanation but I need specific numbers and help. I thank you in advance for your time and really appreciate the help.

Excess calcium and magnesium 

i have this. I experience blossom end rot in tomatoes most often associated with calcium deficiency but the condition is much worse with excess. I was looking at other plant charts and it reminded me I have this issue of excess calcium blocking uptake phos potassium and iron. It also binds them in a form unusable to plants is my loose understanding from my terrestrial gardening understanding.    This I believe may be my issue rather than lack of phos pot iron and here is why I think that. 

I get unsoftened water from an exterior hose for all my tanks. I usually use softened faucet water to heat on the stove to bring to temp for wc.  This is the first year my hose bib has frozen completely shut. I have bypassed my softener to obtain all water now so I am no longer mixing in soft water. This is the time my bursitis flared so I did not make the connection of what else changed that my plants went from fantastic to dying. Also the calcium binding the pho’s into unusable would explain the gsa (I think???)

The questions...

1 could this be it or am I way off base. 

2 at what level is calcium and magnesium to high and blocks phos iron potassium  uptake  

3 what are ideal calcium magnesium levels in a planted tank so I can appropriately mix softener water to correct this problem?

Thank you again. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Guppysnail

First of all sorry about your hose bib, you know it is cold when that happens!  Calcium and magnesium are two secondary nutrients that tend to be overlooked in their importance in plant health and their effects on other nutrients.  I grew up in the midwest where there is a lot of limestone which can put high amounts of calcium in the water.

Quote

 

The questions...

1 could this be it or am I way off base. 

2 at what level is calcium and magnesium to high and blocks phos iron potassium  uptake  

3 what are ideal calcium magnesium levels in a planted tank so I can appropriately mix softener water to correct this problem?

 

1)  No, I don't think you are necessarily 'off base' if you have looked at the levels of your macro-nutrients and they are in good shape.

2)  I don't believe are specific levels of nutrients where Mulder's Nutrient Interactions "start".  I believe that the interaction effect is gradual in that in antagonistic nutrient relationships the more one nutrient is present the less of another nutrient becomes available. And yes, excess calcium adversely effects the uptake of the macro-nutrients potassium and phosphorus as well as the secondary nutrients, magnesium and iron along with several micro-nutrients.

3) I have the opposite problem that you have, I deal with very, very soft water with parameters pH@7.0 (degassed), dKH@0-1.0, and dGH@2.0-3.0.  I don't worry about my dKH but I try to maintain a dGH in the 5.0 - 8.0 range and my calcium level at about 15.0-20.0 ppm and magnesium level at about 4.0 - 5.0.  These seem to produce good results for me. 

Remember, pictures always help me analyze plant health when I am trying to helping folks deal with nutrient issues. -Roy

"Simplified" Mulder's Chart of Nutrient Interactions

[Mmiller2001]

What he said 😆. 

All I can offer is my current numbers.

21ppm Ca-2.94dGH

7ppm Mg-1.62dGH 

Totals:

3:1 @ 4.56dGH 

I've tried 2:1 with 5.2dGH (roughly) to 4:1 with around 3dGH. It's hard to say which was better, but currently 3:1 @4.56dGH is working well. It also could be my lower Micro dosing or a combination of both. I feel like the 75 is doing pretty well right now.

I will never be on @Seattle_Aquaristlevel. All I can do is follow my favorite aquarists and try to emulate what they do. Over time, as I transition the tank to what they do, I discover this tanks sweet spots. 

 

 

[Torrey]

On 2/28/2022 at 8:39 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Guppysnail

First of all sorry about your hose bib, you know it is cold when that happens!  Calcium and magnesium are two secondary nutrients that tend to be overlooked in their importance in plant health and their effects on other nutrients.  I grew up in the midwest where there is a lot of limestone which can put high amounts of calcium in the water.

1)  No, I don't think you are necessarily 'off base' if you have looked at the levels of your macro-nutrients and they are in good shape.

2)  I don't believe are specific levels of nutrients where Mulder's Nutrient Interactions "start".  I believe that the interaction effect is gradual in that in antagonistic nutrient relationships the more one nutrient is present the less of another nutrient becomes available. And yes, excess calcium adversely effects the uptake of the macro-nutrients potassium and phosphorus as well as the secondary nutrients, magnesium and iron along with several micro-nutrients.

3) I have the opposite problem that you have, I deal with very, very soft water with parameters pH@7.0 (degassed), dKH@0-1.0, and dGH@2.0-3.0.  I don't worry about my dKH but I try to maintain a dGH in the 5.0 - 8.0 range and my calcium level at about 15.0-20.0 ppm and magnesium level at about 4.0 - 5.0.  These seem to produce good results for me. 

Remember, pictures always help me analyze plant health when I am trying to helping folks deal with nutrient issues. -Roy

"Simplified" Mulder's Chart of Nutrient Interactions

Roy;

This is such a helpful chart!!!!

@Guppysnail thank you for making the connections. Now I have a better idea of:

1. What suddenly went wrong in my grow out tank

2. Why I have had a 4' aquarium sitting empty for 13 months tomorrow~ the universe has prevented me from a lot of frustration. 

So, back to the drawing board!

[Guppysnail]

Thank you folks. This was helpful. My api gh is average 15-17 sometimes 19 drops. Kh 13-15 av 17 max. I’m going to revert to the heated water being softened but continue dosing all 3 and monitoring levels because I simply want to learn and do better. I love learning!  

[Guppysnail]

It is working. Now that I am adding the iron as well as potassium and phosphate some pink is coming back to the new growth in the 40B no new gsa  

the 29 not much new gsa but the new growth is unimpressive. Maybe because they were more damaged? Or because the tops rotted so it has to send side shoots?  I’m adding the same percentages as the 40B so I’m not sure where to go with 29. Wait and give it time? Add more of one of the three? Something else entirely? 
edit to add I just seen these holes in the 29 that are new so more potassium?

Edited March 5, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Mmiller2001]

Give it some time. I'd say 3 weeks. If you still see the holes after that, bump K up a bit more in that tank. 

Some plants are just K hogs! Keep an eye on the new growth.

[Guppysnail]

Things are starting to color up.  I forgot to take pictures of the Alternanthera I will today. New leaves are coming in slightly more pink and the red is returning to the stems of the ludwigia.  I’m taking the 29 out of this project.  I’m using that tank and plants for another project. I chose that one for my other project since it was responding much slower than the 40. 
The 40 is doing great however I have to up the phosphate dose because I found a large dense patch of gsa behind my intake that was not there. Phosphate has not dropped below 1ppm though.  I’m going to up to a couple gallon daily water change with same prepped water dose vs increasing the dose put in every other day with wc done for fry.

Please tell me if I’m incorrect in this part.  My thinking is keeping the lower more consistent level that does not fall to only 1 ppm will not grow as much other algae vs larger dose with initial larger in tank levels until the plants consume the phosphate. That is what seems to make sense in my head. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Mmiller2001]

If you are seeing new GSA, I would double the dose of PO4 (this is what I do up to 6ppm a week, after 6ppm I move up by 1ppm). Plants love PO4 and it doesn't cause algae. Just don't neglect your other nutrients too.

I've been as high as 10ppm and never saw any problems, I also didn't see any improvements so I dropped it back down to 8ppm.

These are the relative ranges of EI dosing. Tom Barr recommends 1/4 to 1/3 EI for non CO2 injected tanks:

NO3 - up to 20 - 30ppm
PO4 - up to 5 - 7ppm
K - up to 20 - 30ppm
Fe/traces - up to 0.5 - 1ppm

@1/4

• NO3 5-7.5ppm
• PO4 1.25-1.75ppm
• K   5-7.5ppm
• Fe/Traces .125-.25ppm

@1/3

• NO3 6.6-9.9ppm
• PO4 1.65-2.31ppm
• K 6.6-9.9ppm
• Fe/Trace .165-.33ppm

The only time I see a problem is when I push Nitrates too high. I find GDA starts showing up. It's usually up towards the light first then comes down the sides of the glass. I suspect it's too much light at a relative NO3 level. Once I see GDA, I drop NO3 a bit and I've found my sweet spot.

Hopefully my math is correct 😁

If you only dose the incoming water to 1ppm, the tank can't have more than 1ppm. I see your thinking, but I would try increasing your total to 1.5 or 2ppm. I would go a straight 2ppm if it was me. But for learning purposes, go in .5 increments if you choose to increase.

[Guppysnail]

On 3/10/2022 at 10:14 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

These are the relative ranges of EI dosing. Tom Barr recommends 1/4 to 1/3 EI for non CO2 injected tanks:

NO3 - up to 20 - 30ppm
PO4 - up to 5 - 7ppm
K - up to 20 - 30ppm
Fe/traces - up to 0.5 - 1ppm

This is crazy helpful. I keep finding very random recommendations on amounts. I’m actually dosing incoming water to 4 ppm. I will increase that and K to this recommendation. It’s two days after wc dosing just before I do next wc it’s down to 1 ppm. 
My hats off to you even more now that I’m learning this aspect. This is an insane amount of info to learn! I’m glad my tap reads like fertilizer so I only need worry about 3 elements. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:33 AM, Guppysnail said:

This is crazy helpful. I keep finding very random recommendations on amounts. I’m actually dosing incoming water to 4 ppm. I will increase that and K to this recommendation. It’s two days after wc dosing just before I do next wc it’s down to 1 ppm. 
My hats off to you even more now that I’m learning this aspect. This is an insane amount of info to learn! I’m glad my tap reads like fertilizer so I only need worry about 3 elements. 

The first group of numbers are for CO2 injected tanks FYI.

On 3/10/2022 at 8:14 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

NO3 - up to 20 - 30ppm
PO4 - up to 5 - 7ppm
K - up to 20 - 30ppm
Fe/traces - up to 0.5 - 1ppm

These are CO2 numbers

[Brandon p]

This is a side note but snd this not and apples to apples comparison but you land plants needs and use the same things. Grass love K, and Ca. Ca does just help strengthen cell walls of people but plants as well, so if you happen to run a polo field or grass tennis court I hope this helps. So none is no good and to much depends on your water.  Buy for me my water has Ca by no K.  

“Know you know and knowing is half the battle”  Quote by G.I. Joe

Edited March 10, 2022 by Brandon p

[Torrey]

I'm ORD, @Mmiller2001thank you for answering questions for us non-CO2 folx. I finally got rid of my cyanobacteria, you were correct about TDS being an issue. I am still working on identifying what's low (nutrient wise) in my single bare-bottom tank. Everything else is growing beautifully now that I got the TDS down and the cyanobacteria stopped coming back.

@Guppysnailyour willingness to try new things, and ask for help, and share your journey, is a huge gift.

Thank you both.

[Guppysnail]

Gsa is subsiding and my ludwigia is growing well again. I have not cut the damaged portions off because they have sprouted new shoots. Once those are a decent size I will. Thank you for all your help folks.  I’m going to begin using what I learned about potassium, phosphate and iron in other tanks. I started with my 20 L guppy girl grow out.  It only exhibited tiny minor spots of gsa. I learned QUICKLY it did not need added phosphates by the immediate growth of LOTS of BBA I am now correcting 🤣. That runs high in nitrates so m certain that contributed to the new BBA. It’s the first time in this house (20+yrs) I’ve grown BBA so it was cool to see…now it can leave please and thank you 😝

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 3/28/2022 at 4:45 AM, Guppysnail said:

Gsa is subsiding and my ludwigia is growing well again. I have not cut the damaged portions off because they have sprouted new shoots. Once those are a decent size I will. Thank you for all your help folks.  I’m going to begin using what I learned about potassium, phosphate and iron in other tanks. I started with my 20 L guppy girl grow out.  It only exhibited tiny minor spots of gsa. I learned QUICKLY it did not need added phosphates by the immediate growth of LOTS of BBA I am now correcting 🤣. That runs high in nitrates so m certain that contributed to the new BBA. It’s the first time in this house (20+yrs) I’ve grown BBA so it was cool to see…now it can leave please and thank you 😝

 

Hi @Guppysnail

Glad to see the plants responding well and looking quite good!  If we observe our plants closely enough they can give us clues as to what they need.  -Roy

[Guppysnail]

@Mmiller2001 you have helped me many times by sharing your extended knowledge so you know I fear chemicals and fertilizers.  I’m still using potassium and phosphate from GLA you recommended but stopped iron as it registers on tests now fine without it. This is not a plant per se but sort of a nutrient question maybe? In other words I have no clue 🤣 I know you know these types of things. 
 

Every year my water company adds something to the water to alleviate pipe corrosion they never specifically told me what when I asked. My tap comes out at 7.6 gasses off to 7.8-8 normally and stays 7.6-7.8 on average in my tanks. When they add the mystery thing it gasses off to 8.4-8.6. My tanks then run 8.4 and my longfin plecos fins shred until it goes back down. I have mostly hard water critters (snails, guppies etc) but some prefer a more neutral ground to thrive(Cory, CPD, BN pleco)

Each year I resort to seachem neutral regulator out of desperation.  It doesn’t do much other than stop the extremes of the skyrocketing ph.  My gh is average 16-18 drops kh 13-15 drops  I tried leaves etc.  it may have been you who told me I could jam an entire tree in and probably not see ph fluctuations.  The pillow softeners peat etc are kind of out because of my hard water kids  I do use 25% softened tap water at water change but even that ph skyrockets the same this time of year gassed off.

My questions 

the neutral regulator says phosphate based…should I cut back on the GLA phosphate?  And if the neutral just uses phosphate why doesn’t the GLA phosphate do the same thing?

Any insight on what they might be adding that causes this skyrocketing ph and how to combat it?

Any other tricks in your magical bag of knowledge and experience that could help me out without going hard core chemical or at least detail explain to me how to use something like seachem acid buffer etc without hurting my kids? (really don’t want to do that because I’m not so swift with stuff like that but I will if I have to) 

😊 Thanks

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Torrey]

Sounds like your water authority does similar magic to my water authority. 

 

KH showed up on my tap water last night, first time since March.

 

We also finally have rain in significant amounts, first time in several years. 

Still have fires going, finally ~ 70% contained (first time since March).

Not sure what/if each component plays in our overall water quality...

[Mmiller2001]

On 6/24/2022 at 9:09 AM, Guppysnail said:

the neutral regulator says phosphate based…should I cut back on the GLA phosphate?  And if the neutral just uses phosphate why doesn’t the GLA phosphate do the same thing?

I'm no chemist, but it definitely adds phosphate to the water. They don't recommend using it in planted tanks for this reason. You might reach out to them and ask. Maybe they can give you a ppm per x used to x water volume. Then adjust your dosing accordingly.

Maybe the molecule structure is different in regard to which form is being used? Maybe some kind of chelate is being used? Maybe @Seattle_Aquarist has an answer. But I have no clue.

 

On 6/24/2022 at 9:09 AM, Guppysnail said:

Any insight on what they might be adding that causes this skyrocketing ph and how to combat it?

I'm not sure here either.

On 6/24/2022 at 9:09 AM, Guppysnail said:

Any other tricks in your magical bag of knowledge and experience that could help me out without going hard core chemical or at least detail explain to me how to use something like seachem acid buffer etc without hurting my kids? (really don’t want to do that because I’m not so swift with stuff like that but I will if I have to)

With such high KH, I bet you will struggle using Acid buffer. I did, and when I used tap water, Acid buffer was a struggle at just 5dKH.

You seem to be at a point where I was some time ago. And there's no simple solution, but there's one that solves all these problems. Reverse osmosis. It's infinity easier to build water, than it is to alter water. 

I was in my hydroponic shop recently, and they sold 2 stage RO systems that made water really fast. My system, designed for salt water aquariums, can only make 150 gallons a day but at 0TDS. If you could find a system that gets your water down to say 10 or 20TDS, you'd be in great shape. All you would need is MgSO4, CaSO4 and K2CO3. Those build GH and KH, are dirt cheap and this process removes any unknowns in your water.

You could also try a large Brute trash can. Fill, dechlorinate and add an air stone or pump. Maybe let circulate for a few days with some activated carbon in there. That might be able to remove any strange chemicals.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Guppysnail]

@Mmiller2001 hopefully @Seattle_Aquarist knows more about the water company thing. When I bought my house over 20 years ago I had the major plumbing done and a very large RO system and filtration put in just to be able to drink the water and not be grosser after a shower than when I started. Things get old and wear out. Hubby had thing replumbed a few years back and a new ro system was way out of the retired person fixed budget. 
 

Thank you for your help. Is the one the shop put in something that needs plumbed for? Is there an option that is “plug and play”. It does not sound as if the buffers will assist much. 
 

I already use 2 large bins. I will try the carbon I have a big bucket somewhere I can dig out and plenty of extra filters. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Mmiller2001]

They don't need to be plumbed. Can run off a sink or spigot. Mine was 150 from Bulk Reef Supply, before inflation. I'm not sure of the price the hydro store was charging. 

[Torrey]

On 6/24/2022 at 9:59 AM, Guppysnail said:

@Mmiller2001 hopefully @Seattle_Aquarist knows more about the water company thing. When I bought my house over 20 years ago I had the major plumbing done and a very large RO system and filtration put in just to be able to drink the water and not be grosser after a shower than when I started. Things get old and wear out. Hubby had thing replumbed a few years back and a new ro system was way out of the retired person fixed budget. 
 

Thank you for your help. Is the one the shop put in something that needs plumbed for? Is there an option that is “plug and play”. It does not sound as if the buffers will assist much. 
 

I already use 2 large bins. I will try the carbon I have a big bucket somewhere I can dig out and plenty of extra filters. 

You and I are in similar situation, except in addition to being outside disabled person budget, I think they are irresponsible in a drought... especially in the desert.

I have been happy with my ZeroWater, especially since the TDS water meter is high quality and worth almost as much as what I paid for the ZeroWater filter. I signed up online, and essentially get a free filter for every 4 filters I return right now (once cost of shipping and everything is covered)

I follow the directions! Completely empty the reservoir, so you know the TDS of the newly filtered water (don't want to mix 6 TDS filtered water with 400 TDS filtered water, and it will make that "membrane is ionized" to 😲 really fast!) I test the TDS every fill. It works for when I just need to top off (don't have the spoons for a water change), or like since March, when water aurhority has done something funky to the water supply.🧐 It even removes the residue from the jet fuel spill that contaminated our water supply.