Problem with Endlers...

[laritheloud]

And I'm back again with a problem in another tank. 😞

One of my guppy/endler hybrids is acting funny. He's skinny, his swimming is very... loopy? It's less controlled, and he makes wide swings from side to side. He's been flashing, and he isn't eating. The tank has been incredibly stable for six months, save for one detail: my municipal water has changed recently to have a near-zero GH, so I've been dropping WonderShells into the tank to compensate. It contains a colony of blue dream neocaridina shrimp and a colombian ramshorn snail in addition to the 12 endlers I have left after one passed due to a growth in his mouth a month ago.

Additionally, the temperature in the room has been very cold and I had to upgrade the heater with a water change yesterday. Water temps were at around 75 degrees, and with the heater upgraded it's back up to 77-78 Fahrenheit. 

Other params:

GH 5-6 with wondershells
KH 10
Ph 8.2
Amm 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10

I've used two rounds of levamisole on these guys when I first got them, and three rounds of paracleanse two weaks apart each. Is it time to do another deworming? 

Here’s a video. It’s a bit blurry but hopefully you get the picture.

https://streamable.com/lpks5i

[Guppysnail]

My eyes are not good enough to see it shows up very tiny on my outdated tablet. If he is the very tiny one do you watch to make sure he is getti Enough food from the big guys?  It is you so I’m certain you do. Perhaps try a different deworming med that’s for tapeworms specific. Levamisole is incredibly effective against roundworms but not always against other worms. Best of luck I know how much you love your fishes. 

[laritheloud]

On 11/20/2021 at 10:09 AM, Guppysnail said:

My eyes are not good enough to see it shows up very tiny on my outdated tablet. If he is the very tiny one do you watch to make sure he is getti Enough food from the big guys?  It is you so I’m certain you do. Perhaps try a different deworming med that’s for tapeworms specific. Levamisole is incredibly effective against roundworms but not always against other worms. Best of luck I know how much you love your fishes. 

It's actually the biggest one in the tank. He used to be the plumpest, but he was always getting bothered and badgered by the other endlers and spent a lot of time retreating. I watched as I fed them this morning and he pecked at some food but didn't swallow. I have praziquantel, too, and I'm unsure which step to take next.

Thank you for the kind words. I've had a bit of a rough week as I lost another Mystery Snail, one of my pseudomugil signifers, and one of my Rabbit Snails. The Rabbit snail was pretty old when I got it, I think, and it was 4 inches long... we have some babies that came of it and the remaining two adults still look good. I don't know why I have poor luck with Mystery Snails. The white snail perished after slowing down for the last week, while my black snail is HUGE and happy as a clam. 

EDIT: Of all the times I've tried Levamisole, whether proactively or to try and treat something, I've never seen any worms when I cleaned the tank after 24 hours. So maybe Levamisole isn't the treatment to use? I'm not sure if it treats any parasites that aren't visible to the naked eye.

Edited November 20, 2021 by laritheloud

[Guppysnail]

I’m sorry about your losses. I only know of levamisole roundworm and praziquantel tapeworm from my uses in livestock that are not fish. I’m definitely not a med expert. Hang in there big internet hugs 🤗

[laritheloud]

Thanks again, @Guppysnail. It's tough when fish can't tell us what's up. So hard to know what to try or if it is anything to treat, especially when you think you've covered your bases already!

[Brandon p]

These are two big fish 5 inch  gourami. The angelfish is 6”x 4” body fins and the feelers not included I use Fenbendazole Powder for worms works well. I have only seen worm leave a fish after treating once or twice and they are small worms large fish. These are the fish those worms left from and I would find it hard to see if it fell to the bottom. The little particles are some of the power not  totally dissolved.

[laritheloud]

So @Brandon p are you suggesting I use levamisole on the tank again after 6 months? Because I have seen detritus worms in some of my tanks (presuming all of them) but I can't fathom how that would be distinguishable from these photos. I feel a little suspicious and wary if I'm not seeing a large volume of worms that this would be the case, especially since I treated with Levamisole and General Cure in the past -- granted it was months ago, but the tank has not changed in that time apart from how I defined water changes above. I do not feed live foods, but I feed some frozen daphnia as a treat.

Edited November 20, 2021 by laritheloud

[Brandon p]

On 11/20/2021 at 11:49 AM, laritheloud said:

So @Brandon p are you suggesting I use levamisole on the tank again after 6 months? Because I have seen detritus worms in some of my tanks (presuming all of them) but I can't fathom how that would be distinguishable from these photos. I feel a little suspicious and wary if I'm not seeing a large volume of worms that this would be the case, especially since I treated with Levamisole and General Cure in the past -- granted it was months ago, but the tank has not changed in that time apart from how I defined water changes above. I do not feed live foods, but I feed some frozen daphnia as a treat.

I think you a few going on. Ph is to high they can’t survive at 8 but not thrive. Even if you can get down 7.6ph all the fish shoud do better. What do the worms you see look like are they red, white? If they are detritus worms  vacuuming  is probably the best way. The detritus worms tend “ bloom” when water conditions change, which you stated already. These worms are detritus eaters so they only feed on things already dead. With out seeing them they could also be Planaria. Planaria is much more harmful and and will kill shrimp and snails along with other things. For planaria I would not use levamisole as it is not effective for these. I would use fenbendazole powder pure  in place levamisole which many worms are resistant. Here is a video that should help. Do not use the the dog wormer(he is in a country that does not produce fish meds and has tight controls. That activity  ingredient in the dog warmer is Fenbendazole power. 

 

[laritheloud]

Hey @Brandon p I'm going to try to be a bit more clear about what's happening so you know what I'm facing!

The pH has always been high at baseline in my tanks, around 8.0 to 8.2. I try to avoid choosing strictly soft water fish for that reason, and I figured livebearers would be safe in this water, discounting the lack of GH which I'm attempting to compensate for.

The worms I see in the tank are very few that I can see. I only occasionally see one swimming around in the water near the floating plants, or maybe one or two in the gravel. In the 10 gallon tank they live in I have never seen detritus worms. I do see the occasional hydra, but not enough to take over. The shrimp and my giant colombian ramshorn keep the tank really clean. I change the water at about 20-25% once per week, and add in a small wondershell as needed.

I do not have a planaria problem. I have seen rhabdocoela, but only one or two in the bigger tanks. My shrimp colony has been thriving quite well, and it's only this one endler exhibiting issues at the moment in this tank.

I did choose to try levamisole again and I'll try prazipro between levamisole treatments. The tank is lights-off at the moment while the levamisole does its thing. I use separate equipment for cleaning all of my tanks.

I don't really want to try Fenbendazole or Flubendazole because I really love my snails and other inverts and don't want to kill them!

Edited November 20, 2021 by laritheloud

[laritheloud]

https://streamable.com/v67ero Just got a clearer video of how he’s swimming and flashing right now. He’s the bigger guy on the left at the start of this video. Have you seen this before @Guppysnail?

[Colu]

That looks like shimmies the most common cause is poorly water quality or lack of minerals  it could be caused be the lack of GH in your water 

[laritheloud]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:29 PM, Colu said:

That looks like shimmies the most common cause is poorly water quality or lack of minerals  it could be caused be the lack of GH in your water 

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh it's probably too late for him, he's lying down on the substrate 😞 I can add more wondershells but I'm not sure what else I can do. I'm very frustrated that my water changed so drastically.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm just feeling discouraged about this. I had been borderline obsessive about checking my water quality, and I know I've mentioned elsewhere on this board that I have clinical OCD that makes it hard for me to stop 'checking' sometimes. My municipal water is something I can't control, and I'm afraid to take it a step further and invest in RO/DI and remineralizing.

Edited November 21, 2021 by laritheloud

[Colu]

At this point it's is probably to late for him I would raised your GH so your other endlers don't start developing similar problems I would add more crushed coral in the long term that will gradually raise your GH in the sort term wonder shell should help 

Edited November 26, 2021 by Colu

[laritheloud]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:43 PM, Colu said:

At this point it's is probably to late for him I raised your GH so your other endlers don't start developing similar problems I would add more crushed coral in the long term that will gradually raise your GH in the sort wonder shell should help 

Will crushed coral raise my already high KH? I don't know if crushed coral will work very well in high KH low GH water.

[Colu]

I have read that epsom salts will raise your GH without raising your kH I have never tried it you can also use calcium sulfate to raise your GH without raising your kH I haven't used that method  either

Edited November 21, 2021 by Colu

[laritheloud]

I've always been scared to use water additives. Is Seachem Equilibrium safe to use? I didn't want to suddenly increase the hardness in the tank when I know they need a gradual adjustment, like it was when my hardness decreased. And I know that my water will shift back to harder water when the well sources shift again. 😞 This is very stressful. Thanks for your guidance, in any case. I hope I don't lose any more fish this month.

[Colu]

I have never used equilibrium i am not sure  how quickly it will raise your GH

[laritheloud]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:02 PM, Colu said:

I have never used equilibrium i am not sure  how quickly it will raise your GH

Ok, so after calming down for a few breaths I re-measured my GH in the endler/shrimp tank and it's at 10 or 11 dGH (where it was at before I lost my hardness)... so I actually think it's okay? My larger tanks are at 5, 6, or 7 but the 10 gallon has been around 7 or 8 and I just added another extra small wondershell yesterday.

[Colu]

Hopefully you won't have any more problems with this tank  

[laritheloud]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:15 PM, Colu said:

Hopefully you won't have any more problems with this tank  

I'm trying. Maybe I'll shy away from more livebearers for now, though.

[Torrey]

On 11/20/2021 at 5:38 PM, laritheloud said:

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh it's probably too late for him, he's lying down on the substrate 😞 I can add more wondershells but I'm not sure what else I can do. I'm very frustrated that my water changed so drastically.

EDIT: Sorry, I'm just feeling discouraged about this. I had been borderline obsessive about checking my water quality, and I know I've mentioned elsewhere on this board that I have clinical OCD that makes it hard for me to stop 'checking' sometimes. My municipal water is something I can't control, and I'm afraid to take it a step further and invest in RO/DI and remineralizing.

I think you are doing a great job, and even the best breeders can be thrown for a loop when municipalities change their source water or their treatment methods.

Everyone is going to start seeing more changes like this, your post may very well be the reminder to test source water regularly, that saves a bunch of fish.

When our source water started jumping all over the place, RO was not an option. 1) cost, and 2) we're in the desert. Wasting 2 gallons of water (min) to get 1 gallon RO is irresponsible....

So, I use phytoremediation for tap water, and add to the water from the plant pond to match tank parameters. It's like an RO system... except water change water also goes into the 'plant pond' to get 'cleaned up' by plants and the snails.

Reading the blog on aquariumscience is changing my new tank set ups, as heavy calcium rocks can't lift pH as much as I was once told, and helps keep water parameters stable (as long as a person is not trying to duplicate a true, *acidic* black water biotope) and snails, shrimp and live bearers calcium needs met.

(Just something to think about, for future and long term stability of your tanks. It's easy to get frustrated, and lose sight of how much you are actually doing really well)

[Brandon p]

On 11/20/2021 at 7:43 PM, Colu said:

At this point it's is probably to late for him I raised your GH so your other endlers don't start developing similar problems I would add more crushed coral in the long term that will gradually raise your GH in the sort wonder shell should help 

@colu. Won’t the crushed coral raise the ph even higher.

[Brandon p]

I would not stop. These fish do well in many water conditions.

My breeder tank(life you can call it that). 

GH 300+ well water
KH 0
Ph 6.2
Amm 0
Nitrite 1
Nitrate 25

then my grow out is one of the ponds dead showed how to make for indoors in winter

GH 300+ well water
KH 20 
Ph 6.8
Amm 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0

Your water conditions am mine are clearly different this is what works for me. So don’t give up.

I have a question about about the size of the tank. I ask because I use to methods to lower ph. A natural way, of using a organic Peat Moss in a tied off pantry hoe and places it out of the way it works slow so no huge change over night and added anti- bacterial properties. I also use phosphoric acid and not the  Muriatic Acid. 

I use very little 1 cap full for 10 gall and then it has to sit two to four days. I then test the ph which tends to be to to low unless it for discus. I will use open top one gallon bucket with open top. I use a drop or two. If ph to low then I take another buckek and put half in each buckets add water to the buckets and retest after a day or to more. It’s easy once you get it down to how many drops you for the right ph with out all the extra. The reason for lower the ph is so when you add the crushed coral the ph will be what ever you like and you get and and the and you may get the benefit of the crushed coral to break down fast get GH a little faster. I know this seems supper hard but once you get it down pat. It’s just part or it and is easy( phosphoric acid one pint) and lasts a long time. 
 

DIYChemicals Phosphoric Acid 85% – Rust Remover, Wood Stain Remover, pH Control, High Purity Orthophosphoric Acid for Metal, Fertilizers - Made in USA - 1 Pint (16 fl oz) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B094PS4RXM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_2K0SGN11XAWS4JJY96Q3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=
 

as for the Fenbendazole this would be a case to use it I the worms took over.

One last question are you sure the big guy is a big guy? I have seen groups of males chase females to death and I’m pretty sure it’s been hahappens in my grow out. It’s about 10:1 males to females and seem s high to me.  I’m sorry I misunderstood about the worms and the lower and raising the ph which should get you out the high ph and raising GH.. please don’t give up 

[laritheloud]

Thanks everyone for being so kind. I apologize for my bit-of-a-meltdown last night. I'm a little embarrassed that happened. It's been a hard week, and the holiday times are usually pretty rough for people living with debilitating mental illnesses. Thanks for bearing with me.

I took the night to calm down and hope all my invertebrates would pull through the levamisole treatment i attempted. They appear to, though they've slowed a bit and they're acting a little drunk. Hoping they recover with some time.

The fish look all right. The sick one is still swimming funny and attempting to eat, but he was out, up, and in the fray with the rest of his fraternity. @Brandon p you bring up a great point about making sure it's a he! I wondered the same thing at one point. The first time I noticed the group chasing him around he had a very generous meal and was getting harrassed by all the males in the tank. I had suspected at the time that we got an accidental female in our group of males, but after watching him for an hour or two throughout the day, he definitely has a gonopodium. And we've had him for six months with zero signs of fry or pregnancies in sight. There certainly should have been babies by now if we had an accidental female. So I chalked up his difference in size and body shape as a part of his guppy-endler hybrid genes and let it be.

I do believe he might be getting badgered to death, and it could be chronic stress that instigated the disease. The endlers are in a 10 gallon tank, and I had originally intended for it to have a maximum of 8 male endlers only. I ordered 8 and ended up with 14 including the extras in the bag, so... whoops! I planted it up, over-filtered the 10 gallon, put them through extensive parasite treatment in quarantine, and all seemed okay for awhile. I "knew" we had hard, alkaline water here, and figured they would thrive with our hardness levels.

Of course, municipal water had a different idea. 🤪 It's astonishing that half the wells in town have virtually 0 hardness (turns a tinted color on the titer test at 1 drop) and the other half have a 10-12 dGH. Not fun to deal with as an aquarist, either.

I think the wondershells should be sufficient until I notice the water turning again, or at least, I hope they are. I've been checking dGH pretty diligently whenever one dissolves completely to see where we're at before adding another. I've been dropping them in conservatively so I don't shock any of my critters, either.

I also read more about livebearer disease and that, sometimes, it's not exactly preventable or predictable. I found it extremely reassuring to read that it doesn't transfer to other species and, a lot of the time, it might not even effect more than one or two individuals in a tank. So I'll keep an eye on the guy who's struggling and take it day by day.

I won't be giving up, because I love this hobby, I love my beautiful tanks, and I love my wet pets. My problem is that I get a little too attached, and I have some extreme perfectionist tendencies due to my mental illness that sneak past my efforts to work past them. I'm doing my best for these guys to work around the difficulties that arise.

Thank you again, everyone, and for slogging through this doozy of a post. Sorry for the TMI and the dissertation!

[Torrey]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:23 AM, laritheloud said:

Thanks everyone for being so kind. I apologize for my bit-of-a-meltdown last night. I'm a little embarrassed that happened. It's been a hard week, and the holiday times are usually pretty rough for people living with debilitating mental illnesses. Thanks for bearing with me.

I took the night to calm down and hope all my invertebrates would pull through the levamisole treatment i attempted. They appear to, though they've slowed a bit and they're acting a little drunk. Hoping they recover with some time.

The fish look all right. The sick one is still swimming funny and attempting to eat, but he was out, up, and in the fray with the rest of his fraternity. @Brandon p you bring up a great point about making sure it's a he! I wondered the same thing at one point. The first time I noticed the group chasing him around he had a very generous meal and was getting harrassed by all the males in the tank. I had suspected at the time that we got an accidental female in our group of males, but after watching him for an hour or two throughout the day, he definitely has a gonopodium. And we've had him for six months with zero signs of fry or pregnancies in sight. There certainly should have been babies by now if we had an accidental female. So I chalked up his difference in size and body shape as a part of his guppy-endler hybrid genes and let it be.

I do believe he might be getting badgered to death, and it could be chronic stress that instigated the disease. The endlers are in a 10 gallon tank, and I had originally intended for it to have a maximum of 8 male endlers only. I ordered 8 and ended up with 14 including the extras in the bag, so... whoops! I planted it up, over-filtered the 10 gallon, put them through extensive parasite treatment in quarantine, and all seemed okay for awhile. I "knew" we had hard, alkaline water here, and figured they would thrive with our hardness levels.

Of course, municipal water had a different idea. 🤪 It's astonishing that half the wells in town have virtually 0 hardness (turns a tinted color on the titer test at 1 drop) and the other half have a 10-12 dGH. Not fun to deal with as an aquarist, either.

I think the wondershells should be sufficient until I notice the water turning again, or at least, I hope they are. I've been checking dGH pretty diligently whenever one dissolves completely to see where we're at before adding another. I've been dropping them in conservatively so I don't shock any of my critters, either.

I also read more about livebearer disease and that, sometimes, it's not exactly preventable or predictable. I found it extremely reassuring to read that it doesn't transfer to other species and, a lot of the time, it might not even effect more than one or two individuals in a tank. So I'll keep an eye on the guy who's struggling and take it day by day.

I won't be giving up, because I love this hobby, I love my beautiful tanks, and I love my wet pets. My problem is that I get a little too attached, and I have some extreme perfectionist tendencies due to my mental illness that sneak past my efforts to work past them. I'm doing my best for these guys to work around the difficulties that arise.

Thank you again, everyone, and for slogging through this doozy of a post. Sorry for the TMI and the dissertation!

I made sure every endler I put in my tiny living room tank had a gonopodium.

Yet, with all 5 having a gonopodium when I put them in....

6 months later....

Look in the upper left corner🤦‍♂️

I know that Gianne said that sometimes a breeder will perform surgery on a betta to change the gender for breeding purposes. I have never heard of a livebearer changing from M to F... yet one of the 5 endlers that I was ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE had a gonopodium, my spouse now says it looks like less of a "boy-fin" and more like a longer, pointier fan-fin like Big Whale in my spouse's tank🤷‍♂️

So, Jurassic Park, life will find a way?

This was the least colored fish in the tank, and the most submissive when they started their juvenile power displays.

Now I am checking out all the males in my male grow out tank.

I don't trust my eyesight anymore 😅

 

Try not to ever give up. Holidays are hard, and it can be very easy to allow aquarium keeping to aggravate mental health issues if we don't remind ourselves that this is a small piece of nature.

 

Nature doesn't do instant gratification, it plans for the long term. Like a few hundred years out.

In nature, the fish getting bullied would either leave for new territory, or become food for other fish. You can decide to let nature take its course, or you can move the fish to another tank. Neither decision is wrong.

I think you are doing a fabulous job, and nothing like an aquarium to remind us that 'being in control' is merely an illusion!

(In other words, try to give yourself the grace you give everyone in here)