Nik_n Posted August 6, 2021 Share Posted August 6, 2021 So I have two angelfish in my community planted 50 gallon tank. They grew up together along two others (who died along the way, one from a disease, the other one seemed to stop eating after territorial/mate dispute and died). Any way the two angelfish survived and I'm almost certain that they are male and a female but they don't seem to be a pair. The show some signs of "flirting" chasing each other and teasing, but they have never mated. I don't think they are a pair but could they become one? I have read that angelfish pair up for life, but I also heard and read that breeders often mix the pairs and they still get eggs. I was considering adding more angelfish, but if I do I feel like I may upset the balance, no matter if I add younger or older fish, I expect there to be fighting and I do not want to risk that. Is this a solid worry or would it be safe to add more angelfish. I have been interested in breeding them for quit some time now. Thank you for any advice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Folk Posted August 7, 2021 Share Posted August 7, 2021 On 8/6/2021 at 5:37 PM, Nik_n said: So I have two angelfish in my community planted 50 gallon tank. They grew up together along two others (who died along the way, one from a disease, the other one seemed to stop eating after territorial/mate dispute and died). Any way the two angelfish survived and I'm almost certain that they are male and a female but they don't seem to be a pair. The show some signs of "flirting" chasing each other and teasing, but they have never mated. I don't think they are a pair but could they become one? I have read that angelfish pair up for life, but I also heard and read that breeders often mix the pairs and they still get eggs. I was considering adding more angelfish, but if I do I feel like I may upset the balance, no matter if I add younger or older fish, I expect there to be fighting and I do not want to risk that. Is this a solid worry or would it be safe to add more angelfish. I have been interested in breeding them for quit some time now. Thank you for any advice Can you upload photos and or videos? That can be helpful on a number of grounds. You can try to set up another tank with an angled slate or vertical breeding cone to see if that prompts them. Angelfish sometimes respond to a clean, new tank by spawning. Yes, it's possible that you have a pair that needs the correct trigger(s) to spawn. Upping the frequency of water changes, feeding live foods (especially healthy live black worms) can sometimes work. They can sometimes switch to spawn with another fish. But Angel pairing seems to be one of the stronger pairings among Cichlids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 10, 2021 Author Share Posted August 10, 2021 I will upload the videos and pictures as soon as I can (currently I'm on holiday). There are about 6 amazon swords in the tank and from what I have heard angels can spawn on them. I usually feed a mixture of flake and frozen food, and occasionally live baby brine shrimp. I don't think it would be possible to get a new tank for the pair, I don't have the space and the community tank is understocked as well. I will try doing frequent water changes as well as feed live foods. Would adding more angelfish help or worsen the situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSH OUTDOORS Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I see no issues adding more. I am currently scrambling to get individual tanks set up for pairs that are laying eggs in my 75 gallon. I had 3 unpaired koi and just added another 10 koi and 4 Leopold Saturday. So far two spawns. I was able to grab one pair and move to another tank. They were actually doing a good job of defending their spawn on an anubius leaf. Moving them helped the rest of the tank relax and another pair started spawning. Went to dinner and by the time I got back all were gone and I couldn't remember which ones had spawned. Just a matter of time before another two pair off. I have tanks ready for them now though. Really hoping I get a pair out of the Leopold's soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 Angels do form strong pair bonding but they are not for life; if you ever witnessed a break up there is nothing more violent than a female angel who has rejected her mate. Adding more angels would be a big mistake unless you actually have 2 females and want to find a male to breed with one of them. 3 can coexist (f/f/m) but not with total peace and there will be frequent bickering between females. Pictures would be helpful as with some probability the fishes can be sexed. Also a pair is quite capable of raising frys to free swimming in a community tank. Your tank is way too small for more than 1 pair of angels; I have a 120 with a few angels that is heavily planted and when 2 angels decide to fight there is no escape despite the dense planting. The tank also has some advantage that 5 of the angles are siblings; 2 are parents and 1 well that one is a long story but basically the platinum female stole her mate after driving out her old mate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 I will be adding pictures as soon as I can. I have kept 4 angelfish in the tank in the past without any issues, other then some aggression between the males which was quickly resolved. I'm fairly confident that I have a male and a female, but there isn't a way to be a 100% sure until the spawn. The reason why I'm hesitating with adding more angelfish that the ones in the store are significantly smaller. They some older ones but I don't want to risk any diseases and I don't have a quarantine tank big enough to house them for a week. I was just wondering if there would be any way (if in fact they are a male and a female) that they pair up. I don't understand why they haven't already. They have grown up together as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 I really wouldn't; for one thing if the pair becomes tightly bound they will be more aggressive to other angels; also they might object to new angels entering their established territory. It can be of course unpredictable as it depends on the individual fishes. As for adding small ones - like wise it is very unpredictable. My grew the frys up in a sep tank and when they added it the pair actually ignored them and things were fine until their kids reached adulthood; however i have added small angels in the past and the female has immediately rejected them and attack them relentlessly (i had 29s where i could move the unwanted youngster). I have no idea why she accepted some but rejected others so just chalk it up to the unpredictable nature of angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 I agree, I think adding more angelfish is too risky at this point, but I would still like to know if there is a way to "test" and "prove" if the fish are a real pair. I can try conditioning them for breeding, but other then feeding them high protein foods what else could I do? How often should I do water changes to trigger them to breed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 What temp is the tank? I don't have to do anything to encourage my angels; kind of wish there was a way to discourage them; so i suspect you don't have a pair - pictures would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 12, 2021 Author Share Posted August 12, 2021 The temp of the tank is 27°C. I will be able to get you the pictures in about 2 days time. So if they aren't a pair, there is no way of breeding them? But how come breeders can switch their angelfish around and they breed even if they are not an original pair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 12, 2021 Share Posted August 12, 2021 (edited) On 8/12/2021 at 4:49 PM, Nik_n said: The temp of the tank is 27°C. I will be able to get you the pictures in about 2 days time. So if they aren't a pair, there is no way of breeding them? But how come breeders can switch their angelfish around and they breed even if they are not an original pair? Chances are pretty good that if they are not a pair you don't have a male and a female or they are not mature.... occasionally 2 females will behave like a pair but 2 males will never be a pair. Edited August 12, 2021 by anewbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 13, 2021 Author Share Posted August 13, 2021 I will upload the pictures as soon as possible, but I can't be 100% sure about their sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH Morant Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Angelfish are difficult to sex sometimes. With some pairs, I am only sure when I see which one lays the eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 On 8/13/2021 at 7:55 AM, HH Morant said: Angelfish are difficult to sex sometimes. With some pairs, I am only sure when I see which one lays the eggs. But sometime the 'male' in the pair is a female 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH Morant Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 On 8/13/2021 at 11:35 AM, anewbie said: But sometime the 'male' in the pair is a female 😉 I think I'm going to leave that one alone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 16, 2021 Author Share Posted August 16, 2021 Here are the long promised pictures of the angelfish. I suspect that the koi angelfish is a male and the scar diamond is the female. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH Morant Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Nice looking fish! I agree the koi looks like a male, with the prominent nuchal hump. The second fish I would guess is a female, but just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 16, 2021 Author Share Posted August 16, 2021 (edited) yea I said that based on their behaviour. There used to be a diamond white anglefish (also male I think) who were often competing for the female. At least thats how it looked like. The koi "won" but didn't harm the other too heavily. It just refused to eat after that. Edited August 16, 2021 by Nik_n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 I would second @HH Morant the top one is a male and his thingy is protuding a bit that also identify him as a likely male. The bottom one leans heavily toward female but it is not definitive as I have a couple of males that have similar posture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 16, 2021 Author Share Posted August 16, 2021 I would say that its a female based on it's behaviour. So what could be the reason they aren't pairing up and breeding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Btw male angels do not fight for the female; they fight for pecking order. The female picks her mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HH Morant Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 I am not sure why they are not breeding. The ways of love are indeed mysterious. That is why breeders often put a large group of angelfish together and let them pair up on their own. Choosing your own pair is challenging for two reasons: (1) because of the difficulty in sexing the fish and (2) because sometimes the fish don't cooperate. And when the fish don't pair up you can't be sure which is the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewbie Posted August 16, 2021 Share Posted August 16, 2021 Do you know how old the fish is that you think is a female... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 17, 2021 Author Share Posted August 17, 2021 On 8/16/2021 at 4:59 PM, anewbie said: Btw male angels do not fight for the female; they fight for pecking order. The female picks her mate. Oh wow I didn't know that. Thats very very interesting thanks! On 8/16/2021 at 7:36 PM, anewbie said: Do you know how old the fish is that you think is a female... Both fish are a bit over a year old. I would say a year and 3 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik_n Posted August 17, 2021 Author Share Posted August 17, 2021 On 8/16/2021 at 5:20 PM, HH Morant said: I am not sure why they are not breeding. The ways of love are indeed mysterious. That is why breeders often put a large group of angelfish together and let them pair up on their own. Choosing your own pair is challenging for two reasons: (1) because of the difficulty in sexing the fish and (2) because sometimes the fish don't cooperate. And when the fish don't pair up you can't be sure which is the reason. Yea it can be complicated to get a pair. In the future I would love to get a bigger tank and put around 6 angles in there and hopefully get a pair or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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