Stash Beardsley Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 I installed a Mr Heater 30,000 btu ventless propane radiant heater in my 500 sq foot basement fishroom. It currently isn't insulated and we're in the Northeast part of the country. I went oversized just to make sure there's no problem in the winter. First day I set the heater and it was off in the morning. Second day after restarting it was off when I got home after work. I thought maybe it was set too warm and it was using up all the oxygen in the room. Played around with it for a few days. It seemed better for a day and then it started turning itself off again. I disconnected the venting going to the upstairs room and hooked a fan up to it. It was pulling a fresh supply of air into the fish room and I also cracked the fish room door open. I also took apart the pilot and cleaned the pilot orifice. I also adjusted the thermocouple so it was sitting farther into the pilot flame. The propane supply is from a large tank that's regulated coming into the house. Watched the pilot last night and it will be fine then it starts to flicker and goes partial. This then kicks off the gas valve because the thermocouple isn't hot enough. I don't think it's an air supply issue. Already have another one on the way and returning the old one. If the new one gives me the same issue it must be an air supply problem. Has anyone had issues with this? If so, how did you overcome it? Just wondering in case the new one does the same thing. Although, it seems like it was a bad thermocouple or valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Beardsley Posted March 22, 2021 Author Share Posted March 22, 2021 I also do realize that I need to insulate the room prior to next winter. But the flame was cycling on and off. Not like it was staying on 24/7 because it couldn't hold temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JettsPapa Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 I doubt that it's a problem with available oxygen. I suspect the new one will work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenA Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Stash Beardsley said: This then kicks off the gas valve because the thermocouple isn't hot enough. I don't think it's an air supply issue. Do you mean that the pilot light lifts, i.e. it looks as the flame is separated from the orifice? If the answer is yes, the you are short of oxygen. P.S - By Ventless I guess that you mean that there is no chimney/flue to the outside. If the answer is also yes then be very careful as you might have high level of CO2 in the room, so I suggest to install a battery operated CO2 detector about 4"-5" above the floor, if it sounds you have the answer. Edited March 22, 2021 by BenA adding a para. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekjunkie28 Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Yea... um... this is a good way to die.... easily.. 30k btus is WAY too much. How much of your basement walls are above ground? 10k btu would still probably be too big.. Also vent is VERY VERY dangerous to your health. Hopefully ventless will be comepletely outlawed nationwide. Some areas are already moving in that direction. In time you will likely notice unusual fish deaths. That water is just going to absorb all those toxins. Either go electric or get a minisplit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColBud Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, BenA said: Do you mean that the pilot light lifts, i.e. it looks as the flame is separated from the orifice? If the answer is yes, the you are short of oxygen. P.S - By Ventless I guess that you mean that there is no chimney/flue to the outside. If the answer is also yes then be very careful as you might have high level of CO2 in the room, so I suggest to install a battery operated CO2 detector about 4"-5" above the floor, if it sounds you have the answer. The gas detector that is needed here is a CO carbon monoxide. CO2 is carbon dioxide. Ventless heaters are not approved by my AHJ or state and I would never recommend one to anyone. That being said I can pop over to any local home improvement store and pick one up for some reason 🤔🤔FYI I have 10years in HVAC and gas supply industry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Beardsley Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, tekjunkie28 said: Yea... um... this is a good way to die.... easily.. 30k btus is WAY too much. How much of your basement walls are above ground? 10k btu would still probably be too big.. Also vent is VERY VERY dangerous to your health. Hopefully ventless will be comepletely outlawed nationwide. Some areas are already moving in that direction. In time you will likely notice unusual fish deaths. That water is just going to absorb all those toxins. Either go electric or get a minisplit. 10,000 btu is rated up to 250 sq ft by the manufacturer. Way too small for my 500 sq ft room. Propane burns clean. I have a CO2 detector in the room. Also have a dehumidifier for excess vapor. Do you have any experience with using them? I was just wondering how reliable it was using one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekjunkie28 Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Stash Beardsley said: 10,000 btu is rated up to 250 sq ft by the manufacturer. Way too small for my 500 sq ft room. Propane burns clean. I have a CO2 detector in the room. Also have a dehumidifier for excess vapor. Do you have any experience with using them? I was just wondering how reliable it was using one. The manufacturer doesn't know anything about what size unit you need. 10k BTUs in a 250sqft basement area is INSANE. My whole 700 sqft basement is 9k BTU and its uninsulated. There is a lot that goes into load calculations. I got books on this stuff that 4" thick. Propane doesnt burn clean at all. It burns clean as in there is less soot but its still very dirty. The reason everyone thinks it burns clean is that the gas industry and blocked a lot of studies and publications. That is slowly changing. A CO detector is barely adequate. Unless you paid about $100+ for it then it wont be of much use. They barely prevent you from living. They DO NOT protect you from being poisoned. I have used ventless gas logs before I have ripped them out in place of direct vent gas logs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Beardsley Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 8 hours ago, tekjunkie28 said: The manufacturer doesn't know anything about what size unit you need. 10k BTUs in a 250sqft basement area is INSANE. My whole 700 sqft basement is 9k BTU and its uninsulated. There is a lot that goes into load calculations. I got books on this stuff that 4" thick. Propane doesnt burn clean at all. It burns clean as in there is less soot but its still very dirty. The reason everyone thinks it burns clean is that the gas industry and blocked a lot of studies and publications. That is slowly changing. A CO detector is barely adequate. Unless you paid about $100+ for it then it wont be of much use. They barely prevent you from living. They DO NOT protect you from being poisoned. I have used ventless gas logs before I have ripped them out in place of direct vent gas logsl Wouldn't running a smaller heater for longer create the same amount of CO as running a larger heater for less time? I have a CO detector in the room. Outside of the room on the other side of the basement as well. Whole basement is 1200 sq ft. I just walled off a portion of the area for my fish room. Also have a CO detector in my upstairs hallway outside of the bedrooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekjunkie28 Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 No. A heater should never ever produce CO (carbon monoxide) . But a properly functioning one will produce huge amounts of CO2 (carbon dioxide) and water vapor. Also a large amount of PM2.5 and nitrogen dioxide which is bad. Im not saying it can't be done but there is a safe way of doing it. You will need a source of fresh air ton replenish all that used up oxygen. The longer things typically run the better and more efficient they get up to a point. Smaller would be better but I do agree that in your situation oversized is a good idea. But I caution that 30k BTUs is probably grossly oversized. Is this a long term commitment? If so it might be worth it to just do a minisplit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Beardsley Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) I did look into the minisplit after you mentioned it. But heat pumps are ineffiecient in my area. Western New York State has colder temps. I also tried an electric heater but didn't keep temp. To do it right I'd need a 240V garage heater but don't think the cost of electricity would be worth it. I do think the issue is a lack of oxygen in the room after reading the comment from BenA. Either way a new heater is on the way to make sure. My plan is to use an inline vent fan that I just happen to have. Going to hook a vent outside and have the fan sucking outside air in. Already ordered a temperature controller so I can set it to turn the fan on as the room is coming up to temp. and then turn off when it's at temp. and the heater should be off when the fan is off. Then i can have another vent with like an automatic door that opens on a timer to blow air out of the room into the outside like once every hour or so to exhaust any build up of stuff. Think that should work. Edited March 23, 2021 by Stash Beardsley wrong name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KBOzzie59 Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 14 hours ago, BenA said: Do you mean that the pilot light lifts, i.e. it looks as the flame is separated from the orifice? If the answer is yes, the you are short of oxygen. P.S - By Ventless I guess that you mean that there is no chimney/flue to the outside. If the answer is also yes then be very careful as you might have high level of CO2 in the room, so I suggest to install a battery operated CO2 detector about 4"-5" above the floor, if it sounds you have the answer. Yes! Very much this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColBud Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 In my experience it is a rare appliance that is not producing CO. The statement about CO2 production and water vapor are true. When the CO2 concentration builds up without new fresh air supply the CO production is going to increase. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenA Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 20 hours ago, ColBud said: The gas detector that is needed here is a CO carbon monoxide. CO2 is carbon dioxide. Ventless heaters are not approved by my AHJ or state and I would never recommend one to anyone. That being said I can pop over to any local home improvement store and pick one up for some reason 🤔🤔FYI I have 10years in HVAC and gas supply industry. Sorry, you are correct, CO detector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenA Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 18 hours ago, Stash Beardsley said: Propane burns clean There isn't such a thing, when there is fire there is CO2 and CO. When you run your car, smoke, cook, run your heater you produce CO2 and CO, both are poisonous gases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Beardsley Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, BenA said: There isn't such a thing, when there is fire there is CO2 and CO. When you run your car, smoke, cook, run your heater you produce CO2 and CO, both are poisonous gases. I get that. I meant clean as in compared to a campfire, wood stove, coal, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenA Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Stash Be very careful. Don't forget that the hot gas rises then cools and sink. CO2 is heavier than air so it will be nearer to the floor, CO is slightly lighter than air mixes very well with air, it also can pass through dry walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Beardsley Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 I like to check all the boxes and do things correctly. I have a monoxide alarm in the room. Out of the room and in an upstairs hallway outside of the bedrooms. I'm installing a temperature controlled fan to bring in fresh outside air as the room heats up and it will turn off as it drops temp. until the heater kicks back on. That way gets oxygen to burn with the fan on and some of those gases have a chance to escape passively when the fan is off. If need be I could always have another vent fan on a timer that kicks on every so often for a few minutes to expel any build up of exhaust out of the room. I could have that one on a timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColBud Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, BenA said: Sorry, you are correct, CO detector. No need for an apology. Stash you said there was a house regulator, but is there an appliance regulator or any other one that further reduces the pressure? Per a ventless wall heater manual supply pressure should be 14”-11”wc. Also has specific information and combustion and ventilation air. Always refer to the manufacturer instillation instructions. RTFM 👍😜 Edited March 23, 2021 by ColBud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekjunkie28 Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Stash Beardsley said: I did look into the minisplit after you mentioned it. But heat pumps are ineffiecient in my area. Western New York State has colder temps. I also tried an electric heater but didn't keep temp. To do it right I'd need a 240V garage heater but don't think the cost of electricity would be worth it. I do think the issue is a lack of oxygen in the room after reading the comment from BenA. Either way a new heater is on the way to make sure. My plan is to use an inline vent fan that I just happen to have. Going to hook a vent outside and have the fan sucking outside air in. Already ordered a temperature controller so I can set it to turn the fan on as the room is coming up to temp. and then turn off when it's at temp. and the heater should be off when the fan is off. Then i can have another vent with like an automatic door that opens on a timer to blow air out of the room into the outside like once every hour or so to exhaust any build up of stuff. Think that should work. No they are not inefficient. They can easily go down to -15 degrees. These are heatpumps but they are inverter heatpumps. People in Canada and Alaska heat there whole out with just minisplits Edited March 23, 2021 by tekjunkie28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekjunkie28 Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 I think this is backwards. CO should be heavier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColBud Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 CO is roughly equal in density and weight to air. It does not really rise or sink and does Permeate through walls. Natural gas is lighter then air and dissipates while LP is heavier and will pool in low areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekjunkie28 Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, ColBud said: CO is roughly equal in density and weight to air. It does not really rise or sink and does Permeate through walls. Natural gas is lighter then air and dissipates while LP is heavier and will pool in low areas. You're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenA Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 From Google: Quote Gases with a weight higher than 28.866 are heavier than air. Air is made up of 78% Nitrogen and 21% Oxygen - Nitrogen has a weight of 28.013 while Carbon Monoxide (CO) has a weight of 28.011. CO mixes with Air as their weights are approximately the same. 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Beardsley Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 2 hours ago, ColBud said: No need for an apology. Stash you said there was a house regulator, but is there an appliance regulator or any other one that further reduces the pressure? Per a ventless wall heater manual supply pressure should be 14”-11”wc. Also has specific information and combustion and ventilation air. Always refer to the manufacturer instillation instructions. RTFM 👍😜 It's installed per the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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