Filtration for very large aquarium ?

[anewbie]

I will be setting up a very large aquarium - approx 500 gallons - dimensions 132 long 36 wide 24 high (inches) that is a densely planted freshwater tank. I'm trying to think of appropriate filtration - three options i've come up with are corner matten filters (worried this might not provide adequate filtration); sump (maybe overkill and a bit noisy); large canister filters (I hate cleaning my current canister filters and these will be larger and more painful - i currently have an fx6 and 2117 on my 120 - I think a sump will be easier but will explain below. 

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The problem i have with the canister filters is disconnecting them and dragging them to the bathroom to be clean - the fx6 is easier than the eheim since i can just pull out the media basket - the eheim has nice quick valves but still ....

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If I went with a sump my thought would be the primary filtration will be a series of slide in sponges ranging from 40ppi to 10ppi. My thought is next to k1 mbr sponges provide the best biological filtration as well as good mechanical filtration with the cavet they have to be cleaned now and then - so i can slide out the sponge take it to the bathroom and rinse/squeeze it as needed (the tank will be in an office). 

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The above reflect my thoughts but this being my first large tank and I do not have first hand experience there might be 'error' in my logic hence this question.

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The attached picture is my 120 to provide some insight of what type of tank this will be as it will mostly be more of the same:

Edited March 8, 2021 by anewbie
fix typo

[Daniel]

There is a fourth (sorry guys if you have heard this before) option.

In a large tank, especially one with plants, you can go with no filter at all. Here is photo of my 500 gallon that ran for years like this with no filter and no problems. All the biological filtration is handled by the substrate and plants.

For ease of maintenance, it really can't be beat.

 

 

[gardenman]

The type of filter needed is more dictated by the bioload you'll be adding. Six angelfish and a school of tetras could be handled fine by matten or sponge filters. They're not especially messy fish. Six big Oscars would be a whole different story. The plants (a lovely tank in the photo by the way) will help process the fish waste. Things will take a while to go bad in a bigger tank, so you can play around with filtration a bit until you find what works for you. But for angelfish and small tetras in a five hundred, I'd start out small and scale up as need be.

It's good to remember also that a heavily planted tank may create more debris that could block an overflow for a sump which could lead to flooding. A loose bigger leaf or two in the wrong place at the wrong time can lead to all kinds of chaos. If the flow to the overflow got blocked, the pump in the sump would drain the sump into the tank, overflowing the tank, burning out the pump and likely any heater in the sump. In an office setting that could be a serious issue. (It's not fun anyplace, but in a fishroom the occasional flood is less of an issue.) A series of matten filters or sponge filters are much less likely to cause chaos. (Assuming you install check valves on the airlines feeding them.) 

[anewbie]

1 minute ago, Daniel said:

There is a fourth (sorry guys if you have heard this before) option.

In a large tank, especially one with plants, you can go with no filter at all. Here is photo of my 500 gallon that ran for years like this with no filter and no problems. All the biological filtration is handled by the substrate and plants.

For ease of maintenance, it really can't be beat.

 

 

Every paper i have read suggest that the bulk of the filtration is in the filter and not substrate so my question is how frequently did you do water changes? Also is your total stocking visible (5 discus?). My 120 has about 5x the stocking (loaches, pleco, corys, ... all hidden in the picture) but a good chunk of it is hidden. Not saying that no filtration would work just kind of worried at some point it would fail catastrophically.

[anewbie]

Sorry for the double post I should list my current stocking in the current 120:

5 clown loaches, 5 zebra loaches, 6 yoyo loaches, 10 kuhli loaches (mostly merysi), 10 sterbai, 8 otto, 1 sae, 3 bn, 3 l204, 27 cardinals, 11 angel fishes, a few others... In the large tank mentioned i would add a few more loaches to increase the school sizes another school of tetra and some more plecos. Probably change around the angel school a bit as i'd like more platinums (i had 3 angels - the other 8 are actually off springs from parents which resulted in the golds and blacks).

[Colu]

 Beautiful tank 

[Daniel]

All I can say is the tank has been up and running since 2007 without a hiccup. Water changes have varied from weekly to going several months between water changes.

Once for 5 years, it had 75 adult angelfish in it.

In the photo with discus above, the are approximately 75-100 other fish, rummy nose tetra, cardinals, corydoras, apistos, etc.

I cannot say this is the mainstream way to do this, but I can say from personal experience of over a decade that this is the most stable and easiest to maintain aquarium I have ever owned.

 

[anewbie]

6 minutes ago, Daniel said:

All I can say is the tank has been up and running since 2007 without a hiccup. Water changes have varied from weekly to going several months between water changes.

Once for 5 years, it had 75 adult angelfish in it.

In the photo with discus above, the are approximately 75-100 other fish, rummy nose tetra, cardinals, corydoras, apistos, etc.

I cannot say this is the mainstream way to do this, but I can say from personal experience of over a decade that this is the most stable and easiest to maintain aquarium I have ever owned.

 

But this tank has no plants. How thick is the substrate? Thick enough to form nitrate eating bacteria? Also do you have any sort of circulation (sponge filter, power head, ...?) I see none in both tanks.

[Ryan F]

I don't have much to add here, other than most large tanks I've seen have sumps. I think the clog issue could be resolved with careful plant placement and stacked overflows(maybe not the right term). 

I haven't seen the term mitten filters before. Logically I have an idea of what these are but I'd like to hear some more details. 

[anewbie]

The full name is hamburg matten filter - basically a large sponge that blocks off a section. You squirt water out from behind the sponge and new water flows through the sponge - here is my 40 - you can see the edge of it in the back right; this one is air driven.

 

Daniel - one other question i have is how soft is your water. If i remember correctly very soft water has a different property with regards to organic waste than harder water. My water is not horrible but definitely not soft (tds 120, kh 3 gh 7); I would probably soften it a bit for this tank but it is definitely not ultra soft.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by anewbie
fix typo

[gardenman]

1 minute ago, Ryan F said:

I don't have much to add here, other than most large tanks I've seen have sumps. I think the clog issue could be resolved with careful plant placement and stacked overflows(maybe not the right term). 

I haven't seen the term mitten filters before. Logically I have an idea of what these are but I'd like to hear some more details. 

A Matten filter is basically a giant sponge filter. In smaller tanks it'll go across one whole end of the tank. In a larger tank it's typically placed in a corner and curved and held in place by some plastic/acrylic. An airlift tube or small pump is used to move water from behind the sponge which is then replaced by water flowing through the sponge. Many believe it to be the best form of filtration currently available. Swiss Tropicals were the first US company that I'm aware of that sold Matten filters but they've been building a following over the years. They're a very easy, efficient, relatively low cost, very low maintenance filter that's largely foolproof. It's a tough combination to beat. (And yet I don't use one. Hmmm...)

[Daniel]

10 minutes ago, anewbie said:

But this tank has no plants. How thick is the substrate? Thick enough to form nitrate eating bacteria? Also do you have any sort of circulation (sponge filter, power head, ...?) I see none in both tanks.

I have kept the tank with and without plants so both photos are of the same tank. The discus photo was 2010, and the angelfish photo was 2020. Currently it has few plants.

I use an Iwaki for circulation and all the plumbing goes up through the bottom, here is a photo from inside the cabinet the tank sits on (the thing to the left of the pump is an inline heater):

The last detectable nitrates were 14 years ago.

I have well water, and initially the water was not soft. Later when I was attempting to breed Heckel discus, I setup a RO system.

[anewbie]

Which heater do you use? I presume that there are large mounts offset right and left 3 of 4 inches high for the water to flow in and out (i lived in a condo that had a tank like that); and you hide them with driftwood in the second picture. That is an interesting pump do you know the model - amazon has a MD40RLKXT. I'm mostly asking to add to my list of possible equipment as reliable items. I'll probably not do bottom drillings and rely more on air driven but undecided - i have a bit of time to think things over and play with different designs. Being able to not have a sump has a lot of advantages (as well as saving a bit of cost). One concern i have with any drilling is the grid has to be fine enough that kuhli loaches don't sneak through but not so fine as to block water flow from debris. With the bottom mount the raised drains have some advantages though large leaves would still block them - on my 120 i have to clean the canister filter pre-filter at least once a week sometimes twice.

[Daniel]

Here is the make and model of the pump:

It has run silently and reliably since 2013 with zero issues.

[Daniel]

Here is the make and model of the inline heater by Elecro:

I believe its intended purpose is for heating hottubs. It has run without a hitch since 2009.

[anewbie]

4 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Here is the make and model of the pump:

It has run silently and reliably since 2013 with zero issues.

I have to reflect on this running without a filter - it makes me nervous but i like the idea. I think at the very least I'll do a corner filter to provide some flow but given my layout they will be invisible since the corner would be near a wall in the office. I could then run the water through the bottom like your tank with the outlet behind the filter - not sure where i would inject the water into the tank.

Edited March 8, 2021 by anewbie

[Daniel]

On one left side of the aquarium in the angelfish photo is the inlet for the circulating pump. It is a discrete mesh pipe about 6 inches tall and 1.5 inches wide. It doesn't clog, probably because the flow is strong enough. Shrimp fry could be sucked in, but angelfish fry weren't over the course of many spawnings.

The outlets for the recirculating water are adjustable nozzles on the other side of the tank. The tank doesn't lack for flow. At first I had a bigger Iwaki but the flow was just too massive, so I replaced the Iwaki with the smaller one you see above in 2013.

[anewbie]

1 hour ago, Daniel said:

On one left side of the aquarium in the angelfish photo is the inlet for the circulating pump. It is a discrete mesh pipe about 6 inches tall and 1.5 inches wide. It doesn't clog, probably because the flow is strong enough. Shrimp fry could be sucked in, but angelfish fry weren't over the course of many spawnings.

The outlets for the recirculating water are adjustable nozzles on the other side of the tank. The tank doesn't lack for flow. At first I had a bigger Iwaki but the flow was just too massive, so I replaced the Iwaki with the smaller one you see above in 2013.

Can you show the other side ? My interest in that is my thought is that if i go this route - i could have the corner matten (as i said above)  with the inlet behind it -- i could also have a hole at the top of the tank so that if the tank is over filled water will drain out of that hole (also would allow for a drip system - not sure how it would mush with the frame); the inlet being behind the matten woudln't concern me too much - the placement of the outlet is more concerning - i'd like to see what type of nozzle you are talking about - one thought is i could kill two stones with one system - i had been thinking about a wave maker at the bottom of the tank for the l204 but if i could turn the outlet flow 90 degree and have it blow across the l204 caves that might work well. The only major concern is if the kuhli jump the matten the small ones could fit between the mesh. Not sure if that is a problem if they flow through the pump and back out the outlet - depends on if the pump would grind them...

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Do you have any part numbers for the mesh - or could i just use fiber screening (like you put on a door which is a bit finer but no debris should flow into  it).

Edited March 8, 2021 by anewbie

[Lifeisgood]

3 hours ago, Daniel said:

There is a fourth (sorry guys if you have heard this before) option.

In a large tank, especially one with plants, you can go with no filter at all. Here is photo of my 500 gallon that ran for years like this with no filter and no problems. All the biological filtration is handled by the substrate and plants.

For ease of maintenance, it really can't be beat.

 

 

Daniel do you have a post describing your substrate and is it high tech for plants?  I am planning for a larger tank too and am doing the research process now as well.

[Daniel]

I will do a post eventually.

But in a nutshell, I had no idea what I was doing back in 2006 when I was planning the tank. I bought a lot of ADA soil that I got shipped from Japan. Both Power Sand and Amazonia (and something ADA magical potions that I don't remember). 

It was way, way too much fertilizer and my tank was opaque, pea soup green for many months. Diana Walstad was a member our local aquarium club and one of early dirted tanks had gone for 70 days without clearing (before it cleared) and her advice was to just wait. 

So, I waited and voila, at about month 3, it went crystal clear and has been clear ever since.

At first I had metal halide lights but then switched to LEDS because they were cooler and less noisy. I did a little CO2  at first but eventually realized that that the plants did well enough without it. Overtime the tank became lower and lower tech.

[anewbie]

For lights I will likely hang 3 or 6 chirios wrgb2 lights - I"m not sure if one row can handle back/front for a 3 foot tank or if i need two rows - my guess is two 48 inch lights and one 36 inch light per row.

[Daniel]

The adjustable nozzles on the recirculation returns are called Loc Line and look like this.