Odessa Barb fry!

[tolstoy21]

After growing out a small batch of Odessa Barbs I acquired from Select Aquatics over the summer, I finally attempted to breed them this week. 

Two days after pulling the adults, I'm finally seeing fry! Not sure how many will be in this batch total (three? three hundred?). Time will tell.

Right now there at the teeny-tiny, glass-hugging, sliver stage. Almost impossible to focus on with my phone, or aging eyes!

I'm currently feeding them a diet of micro-worms, vinegar eels (alas, don't really have enough of these right now), and Sera Micron.

If anyone wants specifics on the breeding setup, go to Greg Sage's YouTube channel. I'm replicating his most current set-up note-for-note. His great video series will get all the credit for any success I achieve (I'll gladly own any failures).

I'll keep this thread updated with any trials or tribulations (and hopefully successes), just in case anyone else is interested in Odessas.

Edited February 7, 2021 by tolstoy21

[Oded Aquatics]

I hope you will update on there groth

[Ryan S.]

That's awesome, keep us updated!  I've watched that video series and man it is in depth!  It's a little intimidating for me to attempt yet, but I hope to try it at some point.  Need to try some easier egg layers first. 

[tolstoy21]

15 minutes ago, Ryan S. said:

That's awesome, keep us updated!  I've watched that video series and man it is in depth!  It's a little intimidating for me to attempt yet, but I hope to try it at some point.  Need to try some easier egg layers first. 

So far, and it's only been a few days, the multiple water changes a day is the hardest part (and honesty it's not that hard). Luckily, like a lot of other people right now, I am working from home, so I have the extra time to put in the extra care these fry appear to need, as suggest by Greg Sage.

I have the adult tanks (2 of them) situated next to the fry tank. The adult tanks are on auto water change, so the water in them is good. When I change water from the fry tank, I just siphon 'seasoned' water out of the adult tanks, as per Greg's recommendation.

I didn't have a lot of adult fish to start with-- 6 females, 3 males. So when I was picking out my females, i just picked them all and didn't have the luxury of choosing the most egg-filled ones from a larger selection of females. To be honest, I had a hard time discerning if any of them were carrying. But I guessed at least one must be, as I conditioned them well for 3 weeks ahead of time, as I started my vinegar eel cultures.

When I pulled the adults after 2 1/2 days together, I was please to see there were eggs scattered about that had not made it through the bottom grate, and that had not been eaten. So my guess is that more must have also fallen through and are currently below the grating.

Those visible eggs are now gone. They either fell through finally, or hatched.

Like others have said, the I guess the easier part is getting fish to mate; the harder part is keeping these super tiny fry healthy and fed so they make it to the juvenile state.

Edited February 7, 2021 by tolstoy21

[Fish Folk]

8 hours ago, tolstoy21 said:

Greg Sage's YouTube channel. I'm replicating his most current set-up note-for-note. His great video series will get all the credit for any success I achieve (I'll gladly own any failures).

It’s so helpful to follow master breeders. Excited to see how these do!

[tolstoy21]

Day 4-ish and we have some free swimmers.

No idea on even an approximate fry count yet.

So far, been feeding them mainly micro worms with a pinch of Sera Micron.

Edited February 10, 2021 by tolstoy21

[Fish Folk]

1 hour ago, tolstoy21 said:

Day 4-ish and we have some free swimmers.

Beautiful! Love how these start out as weeee little guys . . .

[tolstoy21]

I guess this is about day 7.

Just started introducing some BBS today. But there are still a ton of teen-tiny fry hugging the bottom near in and around the mulm.

The group shown in the GIF represents the largest free-swimmers who have schooled up above the cover of a small clump of java moss. 

I raised the water level in the tank to about  5 - 6 inches today (started at 4). I'll slowly increment that to 7 or 8 inches over the course of the week.

Still doing water changes three times a day, an hour after feedings. I have those pretty down pat at this point so they don't take much time at all.

I use a filter sock over the end of a python so as to not suck up fry, and so far, none have been sucked up that I have found.  I discharge waste water into a white bucket and then inspect that with a light to double check that I'm not inadvertently sucking in fry. None so far so I'm going to assume the filter sock works.  I usually leave the end of the sock in the tank a for few minutes afterward, and give it a shake in the water, just in case any fry are clinging to the sides. 

No idea how many fry are in the tank at the moment. 50? 100? The majority of them are teeny-tiny still and masters at hiding. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by tolstoy21

[Fish Folk]

This is so fun! Hope your barbs color up like crazy in your water. It’s one of the secret treats from raising fish in your own water: they adapt to it, and color up very nicely. Sounds like you’re doing things right. Time intensive... but what a product at the end!!! 

[tolstoy21]

3 hours ago, Fish Folk said:

This is so fun! Hope your barbs color up like crazy in your water. It’s one of the secret treats from raising fish in your own water: they adapt to it, and color up very nicely. Sounds like you’re doing things right. Time intensive... but what a product at the end!!! 

The parents were colorless and undifferentiated when I received them over the summer. They were maybe 2 or 3 months old. In the meantime, both males and females exhibit that great classic Odessa coloration.  

I’ll see if I can snap some pics of those. However, they are very skittish and stay hidden when I’m around.

Dithers work with them, but right now, they’re in tanks without dithers and they reverted back to being secretive. My guess is part of them being timid is because their numbers are low currently.

Edited February 13, 2021 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

End of week 2-ish.

I have a better indication of how many fry spawned and survived thus far. I'll say the total number is somewhere between some and more-than-some.

This pic shows maybe an estimated 2/3 the total number of fry present. Once they start taking brine shrimp they put on size fast.

So far, I've had to deviate from Select Aquatics instructions a tad, but not in significant ways.

I didn't have enough vinegar eels ready, so I used microworms instead (and some pinches of Sera Micron). The fry consumed this happily. I say 'happily' because they were smiling and sent their compliments to the chef. (Ok maybe I'm exaggerating a tad). 

Also, I didn't have enough 'seasoned' tank water from the adult tanks to keep up with the recommended water change schedule. But I do have a 40 gallon brute can where I aerate, heat and age my well water (this has a large media bag of crushed coral in the bottom of it). I performed the vast majority of my water changes from this, changing anywhere from 50% - 75% at a time, and so far so good. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

I guess we're at about week 3.

Nothing new to report other than the fry are gobbling up a lot more BBS now and putting on size fast.

Almost at the point where I can be a bit more lax with the rigid feeding and water change schedule, as per Greg Sage's recommendations. (Still doing a 3x daily feeding followed by a 50% water change).

As with all things, I'm finding these have been relatively simple to breed and care for. (Yes simple is relative, but I guess I mean simple compared to what I imagined the process would be like). As with all things, I'm finding if you just follow the instructions, follow the advice of those with the expertise, and have patients, the outcome can be predictably good. 

Still no idea how to count the total batch size. Maybe if I name them all it will be easier.

Included a pic of the proud fathers who have been rewarded by moving to nicer, upscale neighborhood (Who is their gardener? He does a fantastic job!). Excited by the prospects of having a nice large school of these zipping around my tank.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by tolstoy21

[Colu]

Your Definitely swimming in fry 

[tolstoy21]

Not much new to report other than fish have put on some size and probably need to be separated into 2 tanks. Eating mostly flake and nano pellets now, with some frozen daphnia. 

Just figured I'd post to give a brief update. This is about the 1 1/2 half month point I think.  

[tolstoy21]

Quick update to this thread. 

I spilt the fry into two 29 gallon grow-out tanks a few weeks back. All was fine and then one of the tanks had a bacterial bloom. As Greg Sage suggested, these guys are susceptible to water quality issues.

I didn't react quick enough and wound up losing 1/3 of the the tank in a few days. Every time I checked, 3 -5 more dead. Other tank was un-affected. 

I would have called the bacterial bloom 'slight' and didn't think anything of it at first (all other water params were well within reason). The fry are larger now and I haven't noticed yet that the adults are affected by slight water quality issues so I was a tad too lackadaisical about addressing it.

I was doing drip changes of about 25% tank volume a day and was hoping that would head off the bloom getting worse, but these slow changes had little effect. I would up switching to doing a 50% bulk water change once a day and things stabilized. 

Everything is a learning experience I guess.

Edited April 1, 2021 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

Quick (ok long) update to this thread for those interested . . . 

TLDR version -- fish died, fish lived, water changes!!!! adults are amazing looking! 

Ok now for the longer version . . . . Like I mentioned in the last post, after splitting the Odessa's into two grow out tanks, one of my two tanks began to crash. I exchanged emails with Greg Sage (an absolutely stellar individual who loves sharing knowledge!) and he mentioned that this is the challenge with breeding them, and what his first experiences with the species were like when he began trying to dial in his breeding methods. It would seem that as they start to take on size, their density can cause water issues, and in that 1 - 3 month range, they are still susceptible to bacterial outbreaks in the water. Once a population stars to nose dive, it's hard to get that under control before the whole tank crashes.

In one tank, I was losing 3 - 6 fish a day at its worse. And of course, the healthier fish in that tank quickly gobble up the sick ones, which I'm guessing just exacerbates the issue. I still never got a good count of how may fry I originally  had, but to take  a wild stab to at it, I'd say the tank had at least 100-125 fry, if not more. Now I'm down to maybe 30-40 fish at best.

I think I was able to stabilize things with a week's course of salt and sulfaplex. Why sulfaplex? Cause it's what I had on hand. Many of the fish in the tank appear more healthy and active and are more vigorously eating than before, but there are still many fish that are most likely too far gone to recuperate, as I'm still losing some, but not at the same rate I had been. Honestly, its probably still too early to say for sure that I've stopped the carnage! I'm guessing . . . hmmm ... dunno yet.

So good news, I still have the second half of the batch in the other tank which appears very active and vigorous and eats ravenously. Hard to tell from my pics, but they've put on a lot of size since last post. Still too early to sex them, as they have none of the magnificent color of the adults. 

They're currently eating a rotation of Extreme krill and spirulina flake (they go berserk for this food) , frozen daphnia and Fluval bug bites. 

Meanwhile, the adult males have really colored up magnificently in my tank thanks to the influence of the black substrate. I can't wait to fill my tank with a large school of these!  I'm guessing (hoping) that I'll have no trouble finding homes for the remainder.

In the end, I'm finding the biggest challenge to breeding these so far has been water changes. Not that the water changes are hard, I just need to find a way to automate much larger daily changes for these grow out tanks than I currently have the setup to accomplish. For the time being, I do changes with a brute can of water and a utility pump connected to a python hook. This hasn't been difficult, but if I were back in the office full time, I'd need a much more automated approach to this.

Either way, I look forward to breeding a second generation when the time comes. I'll just have to make sure to be as discerning in picking my breeders as Greg Sage so as to no diminish the beauty of this line. 

Thanks for following this thread if you've stuck with me and read this far!

Edited April 24, 2021 by tolstoy21

[madmark285]

I am so envious. I bought some Odessa from PetCo, they just are not coloring up as I hoped. I may still try to get some Odessa from selected aquatics if he still has any available this year. My plan was the same as yours, breed a batch for my 75 gallon tank.

 

[tolstoy21]

@madmark285 Black substrate, medium lighting and plants is the key to getting the darker black colors out of them. I had them in a tank with crushed coral and caribsea substrate and they had much more silver/gray tones where they are matte black now. They also take a good while to mature before they get rich coloration, like maybe about 9 months. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by tolstoy21

[madmark285]

Thanks, I do need more patience. I had a couple male who colored up but it didn't last. I have red gravel and lots of wood in the tank but my plants are struggling.

I was very close on ordering from Mr. Sage but cancel as I just wasn't ready.