Midnight/celestial ram pairing gone wrong?

[skinzz]

Hi guys, I purchased a few midnight rams from a lfs around 2-3 months ago. There were 5 in total with two pairs and one by herself. Anyway I had set them up into separate 20gal breeding tanks with the usual dish, java moss and 2 didler fish, sponge filter etc.

I've noticed in the last week a pair seems to have lost their bond? They were perfectly fine together since I put them in the 20gal and then one day they started sparring and the male was really aggressive towards the female. The female wouldn't take it either and would spar back at the male aggressively as well. I thought they might get over it but unfortunately they haven't and the male has beaten her pretty bad so I put the female into a fry box in the tank until I can get another tank ready for her.

I've read on forums and heard Master Breeder Dean say in one of his videos, that these rams are either one way or the other, the greatest parents in the fish world or the most aggressive fish out there. So I'm not sure what I should do with these two. Are they able to work it out or will they continue to beat on each other until one dies? The other solo female that was included in the purchase ended up passing away and I think she may have been stunted since she was quite smaller then the other 4 and I don't really want to loose any of these other ones.

What do you guys think I should do? I cant pop down to the local fish store and get more since these were the only ones they had and there is no more to buy in my state ATM. The last few they did get in a couple of weeks back weren't anywhere near as black or as big as the ones I have. Is there any chance I can save this pairs bond or is it gone?

Here is the female.

Here is the male

[nabokovfan87]

There was someone recently who had a male ram go between a few females.  There was a bit more of a complexity to the setup, but I'll try to find the thread. 

As a sidenote, here is another thread / journal that may be of interest and able to help out with some of your questions:
 

 

[Fish Folk]

Good looking Rams!

Have you bred and raised Rams before? The setup seems right.

Sometimes a breeding bond can be reinforced with a few carefully selected dither fish. Nanostomus (e.g. coral red pencilfish) might work alright, but they can be hard to find.

All of my males have been opportunistic spawners. They’ll spawn with any available female.

Keep them separated awhile and let her heal and develop roe. Live foods - BBS, Daphnia, and black worms - will bring them into breeding readiness.

If you don’t use RO water, you can buy clip-baskets online, and grow loads of aquaponic plants out the back side of the tank to zero out minerals and nitrate.

[skinzz]

On 12/18/2023 at 5:59 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

There was someone recently who had a male ram go between a few females.  There was a bit more of a complexity to the setup, but I'll try to find the thread. 

As a sidenote, here is another thread / journal that may be of interest and able to help out with some of your questions:
 

 

Thanks man ill jump on the journal and read it.

[skinzz]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:33 PM, Fish Folk said:

Good looking Rams!

Have you bred and raised Rams before? The setup seems right.

Sometimes a breeding bond can be reinforced with a few carefully selected dither fish. Nanostomus (e.g. coral red pencilfish) might work alright, but they can be hard to find.

All of my males have been opportunistic spawners. They’ll spawn with any available female.

Keep them separated awhile and let her heal and develop roe. Live foods - BBS, Daphnia, and black worms - will bring them into breeding readiness.

If you don’t use RO water, you can buy clip-baskets online, and grow loads of aquaponic plants out the back side of the tank to zero out minerals and nitrate.

Thanks Fish Folk, These are the only fully black rams with really nice bright blue streaks that I've seen in our state so I scooped them up quick 😁

I've bred blue rams before and still have the pair now who are about to lay another lot of eggs. Their temperament is so different compared to the midnight rams lol. They are more skittish where the midnights will actually come up and bite my fingers when I feed 😂

I have 2 neon tetra in the tank for dither fish. Should I change these for something else or would they be fine? I always use Prime when doing water changes and do 25% every 3 days atm until I build my auto water change system. Once I do that I will be using RO water for all of my tanks.

[Fish Folk]

I had a bad experience with Neons as dithers once… they ate a whole batch of F1 Apistogramma bitaeniata fry… 😖

I have heard other folks describe Black Rams as very aggressive. No idea why that would be.

Do you feed live BBS? I always found “Rams that eat together stay together.”

[anewbie]

Most tetras are predators; Rams are soft bonding - mine always squabble each time the parents changed up (one would guard while the other ate; then they would fight when they swap positions; ...); also the female picks the male so keep that in mind and smaller males will sometime play 'female' when locked in a glass cage near another male. Unlike gbr; midnight rams are harder to sex in many cases esp those pesty fake females.

Edited December 18, 2023 by anewbie

[UK rams]

I have bred rams for a number of years. The only thing to do in this situation IMO is put the other pair in with them. They might well get the bond back due to a common enemy (as long as they don't wife swop which could also happen) then separate them once this happens. I know this reply is a bit late but I've only just joined the group. Hope this helps or you've already sorted it

Edited December 26, 2023 by UK rams