pls help: edge of betta gills turning white

[yve]

Hello, pls help i noticed the edges of my betta’s gills turning white.. what could be the issue and how to solve it? other symptoms include shredded fins.. (i think it’s fin rot but i’m not too sure) & how should i go abt the treatment.  

thank youu

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/2/2023 at 12:12 AM, yve said:

. (i think it’s fin rot but i’m not too sure) & how should i go abt the treatment.  

I don't think it's fin rot. The gill discoloration is called gill curl or it could be other things. I zoomed in on the photos as best I could and I don't see signs of fin rot.

You may have external parasites on the fish which are causing issues.

Given that the gills are involved we need to really check everything before we go dumping anything in the tank.

Please give us all of the following details.

1. All water parameters including temperature. Please specifically test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates as well.

2. What is your filtration and how is it setup? Do you have any airstones running as well?

3. What foods are you feeding, how much and how often?

4. What is your maintenance schedule? How much water are you changing and how often?

[yve]

hi nabokovfan87 thanks for replying! i see, in that case what could be causing the tail to shred? he’s the only fish in the tank..

PH: 7.0 

Ammonia: 0.1

nitrite: 0

nitrate: 5.0

temperature: 27 degree celsius 

No air stones, HOB filter w sponges and bio media. 

food: betta bio gold (4pellets twice a day)

water change schedule: every 3days abt 25% water changes. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by yve

[yve]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:58 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I don't think it's fin rot. The gill discoloration is called gill curl or it could be other things. I zoomed in on the photos as best I could and I don't see signs of fin rot.

You may have external parasites on the fish which are causing issues.

Given that the gills are involved we need to really check everything before we go dumping anything in the tank.

Please give us all of the following details.

1. All water parameters including temperature. Please specifically test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates as well.

2. What is your filtration and how is it setup? Do you have any airstones running as well?

3. What foods are you feeding, how much and how often?

4. What is your maintenance schedule? How much water are you changing and how often?

hi nabokovfan87 thanks for replying! i see, in that case what could be causing the tail to shred? he’s the only fish in the tank..

PH: 7.0 

Ammonia: 0.1

nitrite: 0

nitrate: 5.0

temperature: 27 degree celsius 

No air stones, HOB filter w sponges and bio media. 

food: betta bio gold (4pellets twice a day)

water change schedule: every 3days abt 25% water changes. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:14 AM, yve said:

hi nabokovfan87 thanks for replying! i see, in that case what could be causing the tail to shred? he’s the only fish in the tank..

PH: 7.0 

Ammonia: 0.1

nitrite: 0

nitrate: 5.0

temperature: 27 degree celsius 

No air stones, HOB filter w sponges and bio media. 

food: betta bio gold (4pellets twice a day)

water change schedule: every 3days abt 25% water changes. 

If you can get a picture in the daylight or with the lights on the tank on it might help to see the fins better.  It helps the camera to be able to focus better and show the detail.  I didn't see tearing on the fins.  Betta fins can tear for a variety of reasons though.  One of them is literally just the fins being too heavy and the fish might bite them to try to "lighten the load" so to speak.  Another one is something like hardscape and the fish swims against it and gets a slight tear.  That one is extremely common for a ton of fish, but something that betta keepers need to be really aware of!  Another reason might be the substrate being too sharp or the filter snagging a fin.  It does happen to a lot of flat bodied fish or to fish with some decently longer fins on them.  Even short finned fish can have stuff happen that would cause the fins to split a little bit!

From the notes above, I would try to use at least 2 different foods if possible.  One I recommend might be the aqueon nutrinsect betta pellets as a good secondary food.  The reason being is that each brand and line of food contains some amino acids and to get a balance nutritionally and ensure the fish has all of the necessary nutrients, it's good to mix it up each week.  One day feed one food, the next day feed the other and it should make sure nutrient deficiency don't cause issues over time.

You are showing slight ammonia, so we do want to take a good, long look at the filtration and make sure it's robust enough long term to give the tank stability.

Temp looks good and all the other parameters seem good.

What is the biomedia you're using in the filter?  It sounds like an aquaclear filter you have, but I'm not sure.

I wanted to share this with you and it may help to give you an idea of what you're seeing.  The side or top of the fish might be turning black which is indicative of external protozoan issues.  It's a bit of a longer video, but one that is really helpful for keeping betta fish!
 

 

[yve]

On 12/3/2023 at 5:56 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

If you can get a picture in the daylight or with the lights on the tank on it might help to see the fins better.  It helps the camera to be able to focus better and show the detail.  I didn't see tearing on the fins.  Betta fins can tear for a variety of reasons though.  One of them is literally just the fins being too heavy and the fish might bite them to try to "lighten the load" so to speak.  Another one is something like hardscape and the fish swims against it and gets a slight tear.  That one is extremely common for a ton of fish, but something that betta keepers need to be really aware of!  Another reason might be the substrate being too sharp or the filter snagging a fin.  It does happen to a lot of flat bodied fish or to fish with some decently longer fins on them.  Even short finned fish can have stuff happen that would cause the fins to split a little bit!

From the notes above, I would try to use at least 2 different foods if possible.  One I recommend might be the aqueon nutrinsect betta pellets as a good secondary food.  The reason being is that each brand and line of food contains some amino acids and to get a balance nutritionally and ensure the fish has all of the necessary nutrients, it's good to mix it up each week.  One day feed one food, the next day feed the other and it should make sure nutrient deficiency don't cause issues over time.

You are showing slight ammonia, so we do want to take a good, long look at the filtration and make sure it's robust enough long term to give the tank stability.

Temp looks good and all the other parameters seem good.

What is the biomedia you're using in the filter?  It sounds like an aquaclear filter you have, but I'm not sure.

I wanted to share this with you and it may help to give you an idea of what you're seeing.  The side or top of the fish might be turning black which is indicative of external protozoan issues.  It's a bit of a longer video, but one that is really helpful for keeping betta fish!
 

 

 Thanks! will check out the video.  

I’m not sure what type of bio media it is but it was recommended to me buy the employee in the aquarium store. (see image)

i’m using a HOB filter, dymax slim flo (see image) 

also, yesterday night i was feeding him as per usual when i noticed that he got super bloated after only 3 pellets (usual amount is 4) hence i didnt feed him the last pellet. After few hours the bloat subsided. I checked on him today morning at night he is still a tad bit bloated (see image) note: i didn’t feed him today due to his bloat

i also noticed that his poop was kinda furry? (see image)

lastly, u can also see that his fins are in pretty bad condition

last 2 images are of my tank set up & filter

not sure if these would help to have some possible diagnosis. 

thanks for helping out!

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/4/2023 at 7:10 AM, yve said:

also, yesterday night i was feeding him as per usual when i noticed that he got super bloated after only 3 pellets (usual amount is 4) hence i didnt feed him the last pellet. After few hours the bloat subsided. I checked on him today morning at night he is still a tad bit bloated (see image) note: i didn’t feed him today due to his bloat

i also noticed that his poop was kinda furry? (see image)

Give the fish about 5-7 days off without food whenever you see bloating issues. Fish don't eat every day normally, foods expand under water, and so sometimes it's a bad situation in those terms.

That poop looks like a snail.

On the filter, it looks like there's just sponge and a baffle. That filter has flow adjustment, so I'm not sure how much you need the baffle itself. As long as you're getting some surface movement and the top of the water isn't stagnant then it's ok. A lot of times Bettas tend to not get enough surface movement or oxygenation because of people thinking they just go to the surface to breathe air. They do have gills, so reducing stress in that way can be helpful.  Of course, you don't want them to be tossed around at all.

The lower fins on the Betta might need some love. They drag and get caught on stuff and potentially just that abrasion was causing some issues.

Treatment for that would be the salt + kanaplex.  If you can't get kanaplex you can try to find some maracyn 2. The anubias will be just fine with salt, but the stem plant might get a little bit upset.

Generally, hold food and see how the fish does with bloating. Just using the salt and stopping food should be enough, but if you run into issues we can adjust methods.

[yve]

On 12/5/2023 at 2:03 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Give the fish about 5-7 days off without food whenever you see bloating issues. Fish don't eat every day normally, foods expand under water, and so sometimes it's a bad situation in those terms.

That poop looks like a snail.

On the filter, it looks like there's just sponge and a baffle. That filter has flow adjustment, so I'm not sure how much you need the baffle itself. As long as you're getting some surface movement and the top of the water isn't stagnant then it's ok. A lot of times Bettas tend to not get enough surface movement or oxygenation because of people thinking they just go to the surface to breathe air. They do have gills, so reducing stress in that way can be helpful.  Of course, you don't want them to be tossed around at all.

The lower fins on the Betta might need some love. They drag and get caught on stuff and potentially just that abrasion was causing some issues.

Treatment for that would be the salt + kanaplex.  If you can't get kanaplex you can try to find some maracyn 2. The anubias will be just fine with salt, but the stem plant might get a little bit upset.

Generally, hold food and see how the fish does with bloating. Just using the salt and stopping food should be enough, but if you run into issues we can adjust methods.

 

okay i’ll hold off feeding for 5-7days as advised. I do soak the pellets in the tank water for at least 5mins before feeding him one by one to make sure he eats and thats also how i noticed his unusual bloating yesterday 

you can see the bio media from the back of the filter (see image)

there is some water movements from the water flowing out from the baffel. i add the baffel as he seems stressed with the water flow without. 

oh so it could be something in the tank that’s causing physical harm instead of it being bacterial/chemical issue?

would it be okay to dose the salt (any aquarium salt will do or is there specific ones? also how much is the dosage?) straight into the tank or do i take him out to a smaller tank for salt treatment before putting him back? (he is the only one in the tank).

would just using salt treatment work or it has to be used together with kanaplex or maracyn ?

appreciate your help!(:

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:36 AM, yve said:

oh so it could be something in the tank that’s causing physical harm instead of it being bacterial/chemical issue?

Bettas are a bit difficult in those terms. They are beginner friendly, but the genetics and other issues have led to a lot of issues for some. Essentially, it could be many things going on and one or all might be the issue. The main thing is that stress can cause disease because the fishes immune system isn't quite at full throttle. One of many things might cause stress and present some sort of an issue.

Salt is a very mild and easy method to ease stress in some ways and help give the fish a little bit of a perk up. Something like improving gill function or replenishing the slime coat is one of the many things salt can do.

Use aquarium salt, any of them work, API is a good cheap one as well as the fritz salt from the co-op. 1 tbsp per 3 gallons is their low dose recommendation. If you have shrimp it would be 1 tbsp per 5 gallons as that safe dose. If you have snails or sensitive plants you would want to move them from the tank for a week or two.

 

On 12/4/2023 at 10:36 AM, yve said:

straight into the tank or do i take him out to a smaller tank for salt treatment before putting him back? (he is the only one in the tank).

You can take some of the water out, dissolve the salt in the water and then pour that in. As long as your not dumping the salt on the fish (or directly on the plant) it'll dissolve in the flow slowly over time. I tend to just dump it in.

[yve]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:31 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Salt is a very mild and easy method to ease stress in some ways and help give the fish a little bit of a perk up. Something like improving gill function or replenishing the slime coat is one of the many things salt can do.

Use aquarium salt, any of them work, API is a good cheap one as well as the fritz salt from the co-op. 1 tbsp per 3 gallons is their low dose recommendation. If you have shrimp it would be 1 tbsp per 5 gallons as that safe dose. If you have snails or sensitive plants you would want to move them from the tank for a week or two.

 

I see, i did a partial  water change and also cleaned the driftwood in the tank before using aquarium salt. Side note: the surface of the driftwood was kinda slimy/oily is that normal? 

the aquarium salt, which i’ve got previously was recommended to my by the employee in the aquarium store. I dosed about 10ml of salt (arnd 2/3 of a table spoon - my tank is about 2gallons) dissolved it in some of the tank water before slowly adding into the tank bit by bit. 

what do i do after adding salt in the tank? is there a need to add more salt in tommorow? if so how frequent do i need to add the salt in for treatment? or do i have to do pwc tmr to remove some of the salt out from the tank? what is the duration for this salt treatment?

 

thanks!

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:36 AM, yve said:

Side note: the surface of the driftwood was kinda slimy/oily is that normal? 

Yep! You can use a good stiff brush like a potato brush to clean it. That will get off things like BBA and other stuff on the wood surface. Over time it should be acclimated to life under water and all of that would stop.

On 12/5/2023 at 9:36 AM, yve said:

what do i do after adding salt in the tank? is there a need to add more salt in tommorow? if so how frequent do i need to add the salt in for treatment? or do i have to do pwc tmr to remove some of the salt out from the tank? what is the duration for this salt treatment?

Just give the fish time and watch behavior. You'd leave it in there for 7-14 days and it's essentially giving the fish electrolytes and the other benefits we mentioned. Co-op has some articles and videos on using salt, but please feel free to ask questions here as well, all valid concerns!

If you see the issues progress, then you want to go ahead and react with medications and potentially (not always) remove the salt.  I believe you're running salt + kanaplex right now. So after one week of the kanaplex, you'd do a water change of ~50% and then give the fish 24 hours and start over with the meds (recommendation on the bottle is 2 treatments back to back if the fish is not showing stress). At that point you'd only dose in salt for the water you removed.

[yve]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:06 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

salt.  I believe you're running salt + kanaplex right now.

i’m only running just salt as i am unable to get kanaplex nor marcyn 2 yesterday as the fish shop nearby was closed 😞 

i’ll drop by again - should be open today would it be okay for me to grab either kanaplex or marcyn 2 and add them into the salt treatment? 

also i checked on him today morning after a night in the salt treatment he looks stressed and his tail seem to be in worse condition? is this to be expected?

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/5/2023 at 5:32 PM, yve said:

i’ll drop by again - should be open today would it be okay for me to grab either kanaplex or marcyn 2 and add them into the salt treatment?

Yep, absolutely. It helps the fish to have less stress when using meds (those 2-3 reasons mentioned above).  You can see corys vid with the 800 gallon, he uses salt + ich-x all the time. Anything external salt with the meds is often the route to go.

On 12/5/2023 at 5:32 PM, yve said:

also i checked on him today morning after a night in the salt treatment he looks stressed and his tail seem to be in worse condition? is this to be expected?

That's progression of the fin rot. Yeah. To be expected.

You can see it progressing towards the body here.

@Odd Duck@ @Colu any idea in the last photo what the coloration on the gills leans towards?

@yve what meds do you have on hand? If possible, get some ich-x as well when you go to the store or from the coop.

Edited December 6, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Colu]

Am struggling to see any Reddening at the edges of the fins to indicate an active infection that could just be the quality of the picture he could be tearing his damage fins if he flairs a lot if your seeing his fins receding it would be worthwhile treating with kanaplex or maracyn2 that @nabokovfan87 suggested ammonia and nitire can damage the Gill tissue causing the edges of the filaments to turn grey or white your water parameters look fine other than a 0.1 reading of ammonia I don't think that's enough to cause damage your seeing  is it possible you had an ammonia or nitrite spike and missed it @yve

Edited December 6, 2023 by Colu

[yve]

Thank you both for ur advises,

i’ll check out cory’s vid!

i dropped by another aquarium store and they don’t sell them either not even ich-x 😢 @nabokovfan87 @Colu i do have melaxfix on hand would it be okay to use that for now instead? I’ll be ordering kanaplex online but it will most likely take sometime before i receive it (edit: i manage to get my hands on maracyn instead of maracyn 2 (see img) would this be okay?)

Also, his fins here look abit weird isit a sign of smth’s wrong? (see img, that whole stretch where his fins connects to his body seems a little thin/stretched)

Edited December 7, 2023 by yve

[Colu]

On 12/7/2023 at 12:56 PM, yve said:

Thank you both for ur advises,

i’ll check out cory’s vid!

i dropped by another aquarium store and they don’t sell them either not even ich-x 😢 @nabokovfan87 @Colu i do have melaxfix on hand would it be okay to use that for now instead? I’ll be ordering kanaplex online but it will most likely take sometime before i receive it (edit: i manage to get my hands on maracyn instead of maracyn 2 (see img) would this be okay?)

Also, his fins here look abit weird isit a sign of smth’s wrong? (see img, that whole stretch where his fins connects to his body seems a little thin/stretched)

Yes I would treat with maracyn as you have it to hand I wouldn't use Melafix with Bettas as it oil based it maybe harmful to  labyrinth organ in your betta

Edited December 8, 2023 by Colu

[Odd Duck]

Definitely don’t use the Melafix.  I consider it contraindicated for labyrinth species like bettas.  Honestly, it isn’t really anything I would ever use for any fish.

The Maracyn should be fine.  Just watch close at the fin margins, especially where they scoop in more towards the body.  They should start to regrow in just a few days if it’s working.

I think the gill margin issue is secondary to whatever has affected him.  I’m concerned he may be self-mutilating, then might be getting infection of the fins and in general if his immune system isn’t up to par from the stress.  I think the heavier the fins, the more likely we see self-mutilation where they nip their own fins.  The weight causes some downward curvature of their lower spines and I suspect it might cause some pins and needles sensation that triggers them toward the fin nipping.  They are more likely to nip tails but they will nip anal fins, too.

Replace only the salt for replacement water when doing water changes and be aware that any antibiotic can hammer your biofiltration.  I’d recommend you don’t scrub the wood again unless it’s getting excessive biofilm on it as that biofilm has some of your beneficial bacteria that you need right now.  You might even consider getting some bottled bacteria like FritzZyme 7 to booster your biofiltration while under, and especially after, treatment with antibiotics.

[yve]

@Colu @Odd Duck okay i’ll not use melafix & will use maracyn instead. my maracyn do not come w the box and hence there’s no instructions but just to double check what i’ve found online for the dosing instructions. so essentially this is an antibiotic course for 5days (can go up to x2 treatment so 10days) this instruction i found on their website For a 1 gallon aquarium: mix/dissolve one packet in 2.5 cups of water from the aquarium. A 1 gallon dose is equal to 1/4 cup of solution. As for the rest of the solution for the following days i’ll have to store them in the fridge?

On 12/8/2023 at 8:50 AM, Odd Duck said:

Replace only the salt for replacement water when doing water changes

I do weekly water change but inbetween that i do top up water as it evaporated. do i add salt in for this or just during the water change?

 

On 12/8/2023 at 8:50 AM, Odd Duck said:

bottled bacteria like FritzZyme 7 to booster your biofiltration while under, and especially after, treatment with antibiotics

can i use seachem stability instead? if yes do i do normal dose or double it?

[Odd Duck]

On 12/7/2023 at 8:16 PM, yve said:

it evaporated. do i add salt in for this or just during the water change

Only during water changes.  The salt stays behind as the water evaporates.  If you add salt with top,off water your water would get more and more concentrated and saltier.

On 12/7/2023 at 8:16 PM, yve said:

can i use seachem stability instead? if yes do i do normal dose or double it?

I’ve not tested stability or seen results of decently done testing with it so I can attest to how well it functions.  I can attest to FritzZyme 7 function and capabilities.

[Colu]

Yes you can use seachems stability I would just dose using instructions on The bottle do a water change before you start treating with maracyn and a water change on day six after you have done the 5 day course of treatment follow up with a second course if your not seeing much improvement with salt you only add back in what you take out so if your do a 5 gallon water change put one table spoon back to keep the salt at the required level 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Colu

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:16 PM, yve said:

my maracyn do not come w the box and hence there’s no instructions but just to double check what i’ve found online for the dosing instructions.

Fritz has them online on their website.

These are them:

Day 1: Add the contents of one packet per 10 gallons of water.

Day 2: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.

Day 3: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.

Day 4: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.

Day 5: Add one packet per 10 gallons of water.

Day 6: Repeat this five-day treatment if symptoms improve, but have not completely disappeared.

What size is your tank?

[yve]

Thanks for all the advises,

On 12/8/2023 at 12:45 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

What size is your tank?

it is a 2gallon tank

[Odd Duck]

On 12/8/2023 at 12:56 PM, yve said:

Thanks for all the advises,

it is a 2gallon tank

You can add 1 packet to 10 mls distilled water, then add 2 mls of this stock solution into the tank.  Ideally, you would mix up new solution each day since erythromycin is only stable for about 24 hours once mixed up. This is the main reason I like Maracyn 2 a bit better sometimes, it’s more stable in solution.

Erythromycin does have certain advantages because it is taken up by white blood cells and gets transported right to the infection and gets released there during phagocytosis - when the white blood cells are “eating” the bacteria.  So it’s in higher concentrations within the white blood cells and at the site of the infection itself - a double whammy against any susceptible bacteria in the area.  Because you have a small tank, you’ll have to waste some of each packet unless you can divide it up very accurately into 5 parts and use one part each day.  Store the medication in the dark in tightly sealed containers.  It’s also probably a good idea to black out the tank when using erythromycin (the Maracyn) since it’s degraded by light.  It is degraded easily anyway, but darkening the tank will help keep it active as long as possible.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/8/2023 at 2:32 PM, Odd Duck said:

You can add 1 packet to 10 mls distilled water, then add 2 mls of this stock solution into the tank.  Ideally, you would mix up new solution each day since erythromycin is only stable for about 24 hours once mixed up. This is the main reason I like Maracyn 2 a bit better sometimes, it’s more stable in solution.

Can you take a packet and split it into 5 "doses" and then add that in through the week?  Is that stable for longer as it's not dissolved?

[Odd Duck]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:34 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Can you take a packet and split it into 5 "doses" and then add that in through the week?  Is that stable for longer as it's not dissolved?

Yes, but need to be very accurate dividing small amounts of powder plus need to store very dry and dark.