S. Repens issue continued.

[Supermassive]

I'm still having some issues with a nutrient deficiency in my S. Repens. Here is the original post. Looking at those pictures now it was definitely much better looking than it is now. I was advised to use up what fertilizer I have now and make a switch to something that's better balanced. But I wont run out for a long time and the plant would definitely die before then so I did go ahead and buy some seachem phosphorous. Ive just been using the beginner dose which is .15ppm of phosphorous. Only dosed it twice since I bought it about a week ago. Don't think its been long enough to notice a difference. From looking at plant deficiency charts I cant really tell if its phosphorous or potassium but my current fertilizer has way less phosphorous than potassium. Would it be worth it to get a phosphorous test kit? 

Thanks for any advise or information.

The stuff in the back is almost completely dead now.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Supermassive,

The pictures above are don't really help.  Can you provide pictures of other plants in your tank that may be suffering but not as badly?

Are you doing weekly water changes?  How much? (25%, 50%, ??%)

Also need water parameters: pH, dKH, dGH, nitrates (ppm)

Lastly what are you using for fertilizer(s)?  How much of each? How often?

Thank you,
 -Roy

[Supermassive]

@Seattle_Aquarist Sorry, I should have included more information.

The tank is ten gallons and I do 3 gallon water changes weekly. So at least 30PWC probably closer to 35-40.

PH is around 7.4, KH is about 40ppm, and GH is about 60ppm. Nitrates today were around 20ppm.

I use easy green at least once a week usually twice depending on nitrate test results. I use a double dose after I water change and I use a normal dose a few days later. Occasionally I use Seachem comprehensive which is just micronutrients I think. I use it kind of randomly. Sometimes every week, sometimes not for a few weeks. I also have root tabs but I haven't been using them cause someone said they can cause algae issues and you really only need water column fertilizer for most plants, even root feeders. I did put a bunch of root tabs in when I first setup the tank though. That was at the beginning of September and I haven't put more in since.

None of the other plants in my tank are struggling that I can tell. Everything else looks really good to me. And the lighting is not accurate in the photos btw.

 

Narrow Leaf Java Fern

Quadricostatus

Anubias Nana + Anubuas Petite

Ambulia

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Supermassive

First of all S. repens needs light; that is why your S. repens is getting so long and 'leggy'!  To get more light to the substrate level trim that Myriophyllum down so it is about 6" tall.  You can either remove the tops and leave the rooted stems (in which case it will branch) or you can remove the stems entirely and then replant just the top 6" of the stems.

Secondly, Easy Green uses EDTA chelated iron which does not allow sufficient available iron (Fe) when the is above about 6.4-6.8 pH.  (See chart)  At a pH of about 7.4 only about 5% on the iron in the fertilizer is available to the plants.

Along with trimming those plant stems pick up some Seachem Iron and use it in conjunction with the Easy Green - you can discontinue the Seachem Phosphorus at this time.  Dose the Seachem Iron per the instructions on the label.  Do this for four weeks and report back and let us know how your plants are doing.  I also see some slight signs of insufficient available magnesium but let's increase the iron availability first and see how the plants respond.  To judge the results we will be watching the new leaves as they emerge and mature after you started dosing the additional iron; existing leaves will not change.  Hope this helps! -Roy

 

 

 

[Supermassive]

On 11/1/2023 at 12:34 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

First of all S. repens needs light; that is why your S. repens is getting so long and 'leggy'!

It was like that when I first bought the plant. I was expecting a small bushy plant but it was a bunch of 8 inch tall stems with leaf nodes every two inches. I topped a bunch of them and that's what is planted in the foreground. I took what was left of the original tall plant and planted it in the back. The stuff in the front is only 1-2 inches talll. I should probably replant what's left of the stuff in the back to the front. Might be too late now though. Also the anubias, quadricostatus, and S. repens were all getting brown algae growth on the leaves so I let the Ambulia/Limnophila Sesiliflora grow a lot at the surface to block the light. Is it possible to have not enough light but also brown algae growth on leaves?

On 11/1/2023 at 12:34 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Along with trimming those plant stems pick up some Seachem Iron and use it in conjunction with the Easy Green - you can discontinue the Seachem Phosphorus at this time.

The S. repens in the back does look like it has iron deficiency from the charts but to me the stuff planted in the front does not. The new growth is green. I really dont know much about plant deficiencies though, I've really only looked at the charts which don't even agree with each other sometimes. Another reason I though it was phosphorous is because I have a couple other tanks with just plants. I fertilize them all the same as I described. One of them has a cryptocoryne wendtii and the leaves are very dark, almost black. Another one had some water wisteria but it all completely died just like the S. repens is. All the old leaves were turning yellow and brown and melting away but the new growth was always green. Would an iron deficiency cause the bigger old leaves to turn yellow and have parts of the leaf and eventually the whole leaf melting away? Also I don't think I mentioned I never put root tabs under the stuff in the back of the tank. I forgot to do it when I first planted and was too lazy to go back and do it.

Ill include some more pictures. maybe it will help.

 

 

 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Supermassive

The plant below looks like Staurogyne repens (S. repens)

Is it possible that the taller stems (below) you are talking about are Ludwigia repens (L. repens)or Ludwigia repens x arcuata (L. repens x arcuata)?

 

S. repens and L. repens are totally different species.  Could you clarify for me please. -Roy

[Supermassive]

@Seattle_Aquarist They are both S. repens. The leggy stuff is the mother plant to the shorter plant. When I bought it it was already very leggy. There was around 8 stems and they were 6-8 inches tall. I topped it a bunch of times and that is what I planted in the foreground. Idk why it was so leggy from Tropica. I was expecting a short bushy plant with only a few stems in the pot. The ones in the foreground are pretty much the same height as when I first planted them early September. They haven't really stretched out like they are reaching for light.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi @Supermassive,

Thank you for the clarification.  S. repens is very much like the Staurogyne sp 'Porto Velho' that I grow but has smaller leaves.  It does need more light than I see in your photos so I would still trim the Myriophyllum in your tank.  And additional available iron can't hurt.

My experience with the species has been that cuttings pretty much don't do much until the roots have formed and are extensive enough to support growth and this can take a month or more depending upon light levels and nutrients.  I have also found that they seem to benefit from a couple of root tabs in the vicinity of the cutting.  Two weeks ago I did a major trim on my stems of Staurogyne sp 'Porto Velho' and replanted the tips and they have done nothing yet....but they are still alive.  Here is my tank with the Staurogyne sp 'Porto Velho' on the right.  -Roy

[Supermassive]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:58 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

It does need more light than I see in your photos so I would still trim the Myriophyllum in your tank

Some of the leaves on the S. repens have algae growing on them. Doesnt that mean they are getting enough light, or not necessarily?

 

On 11/1/2023 at 4:58 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

And additional available iron can't hurt.

It wont cause algae issues or anything?

Can you explain why you think its an iron deficiency. To me it really doesn't seem like its an iron deficiency according to the deficiency charts.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/2/2023 at 7:18 AM, Supermassive said:

It wont cause algae issues or anything?

Can you explain why you think its an iron deficiency. To me it really doesn't seem like its an iron deficiency according to the deficiency charts.

It's due to the type of iron in the fertilizer and the PH of the tank. That's basically what that chart explains. A lot of times they use a mix of different types of iron sources to prevent issues.  Just be aware of the PH of your tank and which one works best for that PH.

On 11/2/2023 at 7:18 AM, Supermassive said:

Some of the leaves on the S. repens have algae growing on them. Doesnt that mean they are getting enough light, or not necessarily?

You can get algae from too much light as well as not enough. I believe what Roy was mentioning was just the need to trim the stems to allow the light to reach the plants at the substrate. It's a very common issue with S.Repens of the light struggling to reach the surface of the substrate, especially in tall tanks.

[Supermassive]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:45 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

It's due to the type of iron in the fertilizer and the PH of the tank. That's basically what that chart explains. A lot of times they use a mix of different types of iron sources to prevent issues.  Just be aware of the PH of your tank and which one works best for that PH.

I understand that iron chart is saying I basically have no iron available for my plants. But it still doesn't look like my S. repens has iron deficiency from the plant deficiency charts. Everything I google and all the deficiency charts I look at suggest its anything but an iron deficiency. The new growth is green and none of the leaves are fully yellow. The tips turn yellow then brown and then parts of leaf die. Also when the tip of the leaf turns yellow there is often a pinhole inside or near the yellow area.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 3:45 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

You can get algae from too much light as well as not enough. I believe what Roy was mentioning was just the need to trim the stems to allow the light to reach the plants at the substrate. It's a very common issue with S.Repens of the light struggling to reach the surface of the substrate, especially in tall tanks.

Hmm I thought all my plants had about the same low light requirement. I didn't plan my tank very well for this. Idk if the S.repens will work out in this setup. I did the trim the ambulia and more light is getting to the substrate where the S. repens is though.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Supermassive

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/3/2023 at 6:17 AM, Supermassive said:

I understand that iron chart is saying I basically have no iron available for my plants. But it still doesn't look like my S. repens has iron deficiency from the plant deficiency charts. Everything I google and all the deficiency charts I look at suggest its anything but an iron deficiency. The new growth is green and none of the leaves are fully yellow. The tips turn yellow then brown and then parts of leaf die. Also when the tip of the leaf turns yellow there is often a pinhole inside or near the yellow area.

Some plants need iron.  It's just sort of their nature.  I don't mean to say this as to explain something you're not aware, but I just wanted to say it as an offhand comment of something where there are certain plants that benefit from added iron.  Adding iron is a pretty low risk thing to do and worst case is you're adding something that might just be a bit of a waste in the end.  In very extreme cases you would see something like BBA go a bit nuts on you.  They do sell iron test kits, so maybe that is a route to go as well.

The chart I have indicates low iron as the leaves being not as green as they should be and the veins in of the leaf standing out. It also has this same description for 4-5 other deficiencies and so I am right there with you when I say that it isn't an exact science, without testing or the education to spot it on plants.  It's hard to know for certain. 

Compared to my own tank and my own S.Repens efforts what I see on your photos is that there is a lot of big leaves.  Maybe these were from when the plant was doing really well.  I think yours is growing 2-3x larger in diameter than mine.  That alone tells me you're doing something right to get them to flourish to that point.  I do see some yellowing and some leaves with the veins being a bit more visual than others.  That being said, I would expect root tabs and normal fertilization to handle the vast majority of what you're seeing.  I would add iron for a month or two and see if you notice an improvement.  One bottle would last you a long time and you can use it as you see fit.  I've had bottles for years unopened and sitting and I am just now getting back to having plants that need them.

If I can help with photos of my setup or plants, then I will try to gather than information for you.  I don't do anything special, but I do have different substrate. 

 

On 11/3/2023 at 6:17 AM, Supermassive said:

Hmm I thought all my plants had about the same low light requirement. I didn't plan my tank very well for this. Idk if the S.repens will work out in this setup. I did the trim the ambulia and more light is getting to the substrate where the S. repens is though.

Sounds good.  Give the S.Rep a good chance as it's an awesome plant and will do well eventually!  Here's an old photo of my corydoras and you can see the S.Rep carpeting and being a bit nuts.  This tank would be pretty similar to your own in terms of substrate and it took me a long time to dial in the light and get the algae to back off a bit.  That being said... S.Rep was a trooper for me and one of the only plants to really survive.  I moved the tank and all of these stems lost about 50-75% of their leaves because of swings in KH/GH.  It happens.  But it can be a very rewarding plant if you give it the chance!

[Supermassive]

On 11/3/2023 at 11:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Adding iron is a pretty low risk thing to do and worst case is you're adding something that might just be a bit of a waste in the end.  In very extreme cases you would see something like BBA go a bit nuts on you.

Okay in that case I will probably get some Seachem iron, Roy's recommendation, and see if anything changes after a month.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 11:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Compared to my own tank and my own S.Repens efforts what I see on your photos is that there is a lot of big leaves.  Maybe these were from when the plant was doing really well.  I think yours is growing 2-3x larger in diameter than mine.  That alone tells me you're doing something right to get them to flourish to that point.  I do see some yellowing and some leaves with the veins being a bit more visual than others.  That being said, I would expect root tabs and normal fertilization to handle the vast majority of what you're seeing.  I would add iron for a month or two and see if you notice an improvement.  One bottle would last you a long time and you can use it as you see fit.  I've had bottles for years unopened and sitting and I am just now getting back to having plants that need them.

Well that's good to hear, thanks. I also read something that might suggest they are actually starving for CO2. Maybe they are still "converting" and will improve in another month or two. Just a guess though. I added a few root tabs yesterday when I trimmed the Ambulia too.

 

On 11/3/2023 at 11:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Give the S.Rep a good chance as it's an awesome plant and will do well eventually!

Yeah I really hop it pulls through. Maybe I just haven't given it long enough to adjust to my water.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:10 PM, Supermassive said:

Well that's good to hear, thanks. I also read something that might suggest they are actually starving for CO2. Maybe they are still "converting" and will improve in another month or two. Just a guess though. I added a few root tabs yesterday when I trimmed the Ambulia too.

That makes sense too.  I had a very slow growing time.... again, the settings weren't dialed in... but I did see much better/faster growth once I was able to extend lighting times and figure out a bit better on how to combat the BBA in my tank.  Adding CO2, fixing the circulation flow of the tank as well all helped.

[Supermassive]

@Seattle_Aquarist I picked up some Seachem Iron today and dosed the recommended dose for my tank. It doesn't really say how often to dose it though. It just says to maintain a certain concentration in the tank and there are test kits available to measure it. How often would you recommend dosing it for my tank?

Also Easy Green is the only macro nutrient fertilizer I use and it has pretty low phosphorous from what I understand. Should I still stop using the Seachem Phosphorous? I feel like its a waste to not use it, another product resigned to the pile of stuff I never even needed lol. Will it cause problems if I keep using it?

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:15 AM, Supermassive said:

How often would you recommend dosing it for my tank?

I dose it once a week.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 11/5/2023 at 10:15 AM, Supermassive said:

@Seattle_Aquarist I picked up some Seachem Iron today and dosed the recommended dose for my tank. It doesn't really say how often to dose it though. It just says to maintain a certain concentration in the tank and there are test kits available to measure it. How often would you recommend dosing it for my tank?

Also Easy Green is the only macro nutrient fertilizer I use and it has pretty low phosphorous from what I understand. Should I still stop using the Seachem Phosphorous? I feel like its a waste to not use it, another product resigned to the pile of stuff I never even needed lol. Will it cause problems if I keep using it?

Hi @Supermassive,

If you dosed 5ml per 50 gallons per the instructions then you added 0.26 ppm of iron to your tank.  That is a good starting dose and just do that once a week after water changes.  We will see how the plants respond after 4 weeks.  Remember, we are watching the new growth, not the existing leaves.  Also, is your NO3 back up in the 20 ppm area?  -Roy

[Supermassive]

On 11/5/2023 at 2:46 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

If you dosed 5ml per 50 gallons per the instructions then you added 0.26 ppm of iron to your tank.  That is a good starting dose and just do that once a week after water changes.  We will see how the plants respond after 4 weeks.  Remember, we are watching the new growth, not the existing leaves.

Okay great. Thank you. Ill watch the plants over the next month and let you know how they are coming along. Thanks for the help.

 

On 11/5/2023 at 2:46 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Also, is your NO3 back up in the 20 ppm area?

It should be around there. I did my 3 gallon water change on Thursday and added a double dose of easy green. I can check later tonight.

[Supermassive]

@Seattle_Aquarist Just tested Nitrate. Its between 20 and 40ppm, so ~30ppm.

[Supermassive]

Its only been two weeks but I figure I'd give an update. It keeps looking worse and worse. Maybe the new growth is doing better but its hard to say. Ill keep using the iron and update in another couple weeks. I also increased my light from 20 to 40%. 

This is from Nov 10

 

This is from today

 

[anewbie]

This is a plant that definitely require strong light.

[Supermassive]

@anewbie Its probably not getting enough light in my tank then. Tropica considers it an easy, low light plant which is why I got it.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Supermassive

[JE47]

@Supermassive I am so sorry this is happening to you I bought this plant too under the impression it does well under low light but that is far from true. I did my best to keep it alive but it all melted or succumbed to that dreaded BBA!

[Supermassive]

@JE47 Thanks, yeah it seems like the same thing is happening to me. Luckily no BBA though.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:44 PM, Supermassive said:

This is from today

water parameters?

I took this yesterday of mine.  Shows how funky mine is growing due to the algae, but yeah.... you have a lot bigger leaves!