Failed shrimp/snail keeping

[Arnam Anan]

Hello,

I am having trouble keeping shrimps and snails in my aquariums. 

Tap Water parameter: ( using co op test strips)

ph: 6.8-7

kh: 0 ppm

gh: ~0 ppm

nitrite: ~0 ppm

nitrate: ~0 ppm

water parameter after adding crushed coral and equilibrium:

ph: 7.2-7.4

kh: ~ 80-120

gh: 150-300

nitrite: 0 ppm 

nitrate: 20-40 ppm ( after dosing easy green)

 

I have added 4 different neo types, 2 separate order of amano shrimps, dwarf  Mexican crayfish, and ghost shrimps over the year. I have also added quite a few different snails including mystery snails, nerite snails, Malaysian Trumpet snails (3-4 times),  BLACK DEVIL SPIKE SNAIL (FAUNUS ATER) snails, bladder snails and ramshorn snails. Other than ramshorn snails and bladder snail, no other snails survived. Bladder snail population is in the decline. Only ramshorn snails seems to be thriving. All amanos died within a week or so. No neo survived more than a month. only 2 blue dream survived about a month.

I would understand if it was my fish attacking or anything like that but I usually see them just clinging to the root of floating plants and mosses and just fall from there. 

I have two quite moderately planted tanks. one 10 gallons and other is 55 gallons.I usually kept the shrimps in the 10 gallon tank but I have seen the thing happen if I put them in the bigger tank too. 

When adding the  neo shrimps, I drip acclimated them for 6 hours or so for first two times and then plop and drop for the other two times for neos. Both resulted in the same way. Same goes for ghost shrimps and crayfish. Snails kinda become lethargic and die. I would see the alive and laying in the same spot for several days.

This is my 10 gallon tank.

 

This is my 55 gallon tank.

Here's a snails pic for reference. I don't think they are having calcium issues.

 

Your thoughts, comments and everything else is welcome 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:37 PM, Arnam Anan said:

Hello,

I am having trouble keeping shrimps and snails in my aquariums. 

Tap Water parameter: ( using co op test strips)

ph: 6.8-7

kh: 0 ppm

gh: ~0 ppm

nitrite: ~0 ppm

nitrate: ~0 ppm

water parameter after adding crushed coral and equilibrium:

ph: 7.2-7.4

kh: ~ 80-120

gh: 150-300

nitrite: 0 ppm 

nitrate: 20-40 ppm ( after dosing easy green)

 

I have added 4 different neo types, 2 separate order of amano shrimps, dwarf  Mexican crayfish, and ghost shrimps over the year. I have also added quite a few different snails including mystery snails, nerite snails, Malaysian Trumpet snails (3-4 times),  BLACK DEVIL SPIKE SNAIL (FAUNUS ATER) snails, bladder snails and ramshorn snails. Other than ramshorn snails and bladder snail, no other snails survived. Bladder snail population is in the decline. Only ramshorn snails seems to be thriving. All amanos died within a week or so. No neo survived more than a month. only 2 blue dream survived about a month.

I would understand if it was my fish attacking or anything like that but I usually see them just clinging to the root of floating plants and mosses and just fall from there. 

I have two quite moderately planted tanks. one 10 gallons and other is 55 gallons.I usually kept the shrimps in the 10 gallon tank but I have seen the thing happen if I put them in the bigger tank too. 

When adding the  neo shrimps, I drip acclimated them for 6 hours or so for first two times and then plop and drop for the other two times for neos. Both resulted in the same way. Same goes for ghost shrimps and crayfish. Snails kinda become lethargic and die. I would see the alive and laying in the same spot for several days.

This is my 10 gallon tank.

 

This is my 55 gallon tank.

Here's a snails pic for reference. I don't think they are having calcium issues.

 

Your thoughts, comments and everything else is welcome 

Your parameters are very similar to mine. My pH is a little higher, but my understanding is that a pH above 7 is ok for shrimp and snails.  

Where do you buy your shrimp?  If you buy them locally they should be ok with your tap water.  If you buy them online, they may have been raised in RO water which is very different.

What is the feeding regime.  Snails eat a lot and have to be fed more than you think.  They also need more nutrients than algae alone can provide - they need a combo of protein, calcium, and vegetable matter.  Shrimps should have vegetable-based protein food, as animal-based protein can result in molting problems.

What is the temperature?

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:42 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Your parameters are very similar to mine. My pH is a little higher, but my understanding is that a pH above 7 is ok for shrimp and snails.  

Where do you buy your shrimp?  If you buy them locally they should be ok with your tap water.  If you buy them online, they may have been raised in RO water which is very different.

What is the feeding regime.  Snails eat a lot and have to be fed more than you think.  They also need more nutrients than algae alone can provide - they need a combo of protein, calcium, and vegetable matter.  Shrimps should have vegetable-based protein food, as animal-based protein can result in molting problems.

What is the temperature?

Hey, so, I bought all the shrimps from online. Both amanos, red cherry, multiple nerite, mystery snails from Aqua Huna. Blue dream shrimp from eBay ( nissi store), 2 other neo from aquabid. ghost shrimps and crayfish from local petco. Rest of the snails including MTS from some other online stores.

Temp swing between 70-80 depending on season. mostly staying at 76-78. at night it doesn't fall a bit but never seen below 71.

I do overfeed my fish 3-4 times in the summer and in the winter 2-3 times. I also provide different types of flakes(spirulina, krill, brine shrimp, tetra min), pallets(Xtreme nice semi floating, sami sinking, wafer), pure spirulina powder, live food( bbs, black worm microworm, vinegar eel), freeze dried (daphnia, brine shrimp, tubifex worm), vibra bites, and some other stuff. Of course not everything at once. but yeah, I do feed variety of foods. I also have plenty of algae in the tank for them to graze on. 

[Guppysnail]

I’m sorry you are not having luck. 
 

What type of water conditioner are you using?  Many heavy metals can be in tap water. You need one like Seachem Prime or Fritz that will detoxify heavy metals. This would be my first guess. 
 

My second possibility is what are you feeding. Most of these need protein and vegetables in their diet. 

[Kit Craft]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:48 PM, Guppysnail said:

I’m sorry you are not having luck. 
 

What type of water conditioner are you using?  Many heavy metals can be in tap water. You need one like Seachem Prime or Fritz that will detoxify heavy metals. This would be my first guess. 
 

My second possibility is what are you feeding. Most of these need protein and vegetables in their diet. 

This. I have well water and was convinced for years that I didn't need water conditioner, until I tried to keep ivnerts for the first time. They kept dying. No idea what in my water causes it but something does. No issues now and I use prime. Anecdotal but everything is alive.

 

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

It would be a good idea to add a heater so you can prevent those 10 degree temp swings which can be hard on the animals.

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:48 PM, Guppysnail said:

I’m sorry you are not having luck. 
 

What type of water conditioner are you using?  Many heavy metals can be in tap water. You need one like Seachem Prime or Fritz that will detoxify heavy metals. This would be my first guess. 
 

My second possibility is what are you feeding. Most of these need protein and vegetables in their diet. 

So, I am using api water conditioner. It also states that it detoxifies heavy metal. And, as for feeding,I feed variety of foods as stated above. 

 

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:26 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

It would be a good idea to add a heater so you can prevent those 10 degree temp swings which can be hard on the animals.

So, I understand where you are coming from. They don't have 10 degree swings every night or anything like that. I keep my room heated in the winter and I have an aquarium co op heater installed as a fail safe and set it to 70 degrees but I didn't see it getting turned on yet. And like I said, Most of the time my room temp is sitting at 74 degrees.  with the light and other equipment tank usually stays at 76-78 degrees.

[Lennie]

I think it is the stocking. Your tank is way overstocked for pet vibe snails and shrimp to be comfy and your fish selection is risky for them anyway.

 

Ive even seen with my eyes baby guppies constantly picking on mystery snail flesh bothering and scaring him. Your tanks are stocked with fish that may easily show interest to and bother shrimp/snails. Very likely, they will be bothered or even killed, either directly or passively. I think this is the main reason why you don't succeed.

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/26/2023 at 3:36 PM, Lennie said:

I think it is the stocking. Your tank is way overstocked for pet vibe snails and shrimp to be comfy and your fish selection is risky for them anyway.

 

Ive even seen with my eyes baby guppies constantly picking on mystery snail flesh bothering and scaring him. Your tanks are stocked with fish that may easily show interest to and bother shrimp/snails. Very likely, they will be bothered or even killed, either directly or passively. I think this is the main reason why you don't succeed.

I mean I would understand that. But If that was the case , MTSs would not be dying as they mostly stays burrowed. and ramshorn snails would not be able to thrive. Now I would also understand that if fishes were bothering them but all of the shrimps seems to be like to stay on the moss and water lettuce roots, they would not bother running from the fish either. I sometimes looked at them for 6-7 hours a day. While I have seen some quite literally drop dead from floating roots, I have not once seen any fish bother them. As a matter of fact, After they died, no fish even showed interest in eating the dead shrimps. Same for the mystery snails and nerite snails.

So, while they might have been harassed, I was not able to see any sign of that.

 

I almost forgot. I also had a five gallon tank with just shrimp and snails. No fish. and the same this happened.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Arnam Anan
Update

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/26/2023 at 9:37 AM, Arnam Anan said:

Tap Water parameter: ( using co op test strips)

ph: 6.8-7

kh: 0 ppm

gh: ~0 ppm

nitrite: ~0 ppm

nitrate: ~0 ppm

water parameter after adding crushed coral and equilibrium:

ph: 7.2-7.4

kh: ~ 80-120

gh: 150-300

nitrite: 0 ppm 

nitrate: 20-40 ppm ( after dosing easy green)

The first thing I will suggest is to get yourself a liquid GH/kh test kit.  Just to verify what you need from the tap and from the test strips. It's very affordable and ultimately for anyone keeping invertebrates it is a valuable tool.

KH is ok. GH is ok. I would do some water changes to drop it slightly, but that's not a big deal.

On 10/26/2023 at 9:37 AM, Arnam Anan said:

2 separate order of amano shrimps,

Let's use this as a baseline and only focus on the amano shrimp and the snails before we dive into something more complex like the neocaridina.

First hurdle is always acclimation.  They need to be done slowly dripped over time and that helps a lot with acclimation stress. If need be I can attach a video on how to do this.

The second hurdle is going to be stability. Once they are acclimated, that leads to the necessary step of trying to get them to a consistent environment and a situation where there is enough oxygenation, circulation, and plants.

The last hurdle is feeding and there's a variety of things that can compound this. One of the main things you'll deal with is predation, the other is stress.  If the shrimp don't feel like they can be out in the open easily, you need to have a good cover for them and treat them as nocturnal.  A feeding dish is one of the most important tools for smaller shrimp and snails, but less so for amano shrimp.  Snails will graze on the wall and the other surfaces in the tank, as well as the shrimp, but the feeding dish is your visual for how you feed calcium based foods (i.e. "complete" foods for invertebrates) and you can track that they eat those foods to get that nutrition.

On 10/26/2023 at 9:37 AM, Arnam Anan said:

All amanos died within a week or so. No neo survived more than a month. only 2 blue dream survived about a month.

In terms of your care in the tank, how often are you changing water and how much? Are you able to add air stones of need be? Especially given the bioload in some of those tanks.

On 10/26/2023 at 9:37 AM, Arnam Anan said:

I would understand if it was my fish attacking or anything like that but I usually see them just clinging to the root of floating plants and mosses and just fall from there. 

Very normal behavior. You can use something like moss ledges or even a moss wall to give the shrimp their own real estate. Having a pile of wood or rock also really helps them to have a "hive".  One of my favorites being a very big chunk of dragon stone. It has holes built on and looks like a beehive a bit.

On 10/26/2023 at 9:37 AM, Arnam Anan said:

When adding the  neo shrimps, I drip acclimated them for 6 hours or so for first two times and then plop and drop for the other two times for neos. Both resulted in the same way. Same goes for ghost shrimps and crayfish. Snails kinda become lethargic and die. I would see the alive and laying in the same spot for several days.

Dripping for that long could be doing more harm than good. They may have gotten too cold over that time. Essentially, 30-90 minutes should really be all it takes. In my own methodology I tend to double the water volume 2-3 times and then that is what I call as "good".  I try to have an air stone in there too during that time on very low in addition to adding 1-2 drops of dechlorinator.  

1. Open the bag, add 1-2 drops of dechlorinator immediately and then move that water and shrimp to something like a specimen container.

2. Add air, set up slow drip, and drip them until the container is mostly full. Add some moss also if need be.

3. Pour out as much water as possible and continue the drip process until it fills up again.

4. Using a shrimp net or just letting them swim out of the container, release them into the tank and keep the lights out.

On 10/26/2023 at 9:37 AM, Arnam Anan said:

This is my 10 gallon tank.

 

This is my 55 gallon tank.

I can tell you from first glance that things are pretty well stocked.  The 10G might be ok, but both tanks I think you need to have a feeding dish for shrimp. Here's why.....

This also applies to snails and fish like corydoras if you have any.

On 10/26/2023 at 12:11 PM, Arnam Anan said:

with the light and other equipment tank usually stays at 76-78 degrees.

I would definitely add in some air. 1 drop in the 10G and 2 drops in the 55G.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:38 PM, Arnam Anan said:

I mean I would understand that. But If that was the case , MTSs would not be dying as they mostly stays burrowed. and ramshorn snails would not be able to thrive. Now I would also understand that if fishes were bothering them but all of the shrimps seems to be like to stay on the moss and water lettuce roots, they would not bother running from the fish either. I sometimes looked at them for 6-7 hours a day. While I have seen some quite literally drop dead from floating roots, I have not once seen any fish bother them. As a matter of fact, After they died, no fish even showed interest in eating the dead shrimps. Same for the mystery snails and nerite snails.

So, while they might have been harassed, I was not able to see any sign of that.

When you say "dead shrimps" can you clarify or do you have any photos as to what they looked like? Did you see molting issues or anything out of the ordinary? Did you ever try to QT some prior to adding them to the tank?

[Lennie]

On 10/26/2023 at 11:38 PM, Arnam Anan said:

I mean I would understand that. But If that was the case , MTSs would not be dying as they mostly stays burrowed. and ramshorn snails would not be able to thrive. Now I would also understand that if fishes were bothering them but all of the shrimps seems to be like to stay on the moss and water lettuce roots, they would not bother running from the fish either. I sometimes looked at them for 6-7 hours a day. While I have seen some quite literally drop dead from floating roots, I have not once seen any fish bother them. As a matter of fact, After they died, no fish even showed interest in eating the dead shrimps. Same for the mystery snails and nerite snails.

So, while they might have been harassed, I was not able to see any sign of that.

 

First things first I would not categorize pest snails with more of the “pet” ones and shrimps. Pest snails are quite hardy in general. They can tolerate undesirable situations and conditions much much better in my experience. 
 

In addition, those small ramshorns are usually not interesting to a regular fish as much as a shrimp or bigger snail with wormlike huge antennas can be. This is more about fish potentially showing interest here I believe. Those ramshorns may face some damage if you happen to put them in a puffer tank for example, since this way, they will be the potential food target by the specific fish.

 

If you ask me, I think shrimp are silly and they trust unconditionally. I keep shrimp in 10 different community tanks at this point, they seem to lack the surviving instinct. 
 

I think that is the most possible scenario. The other one can be your water has stuff that are deadly for shrimp, maybe like copper? But then, how are ramshorns thriving is the question. They dont sound to tolerate but thrive you say. 
 

So I still think it is the aggression 

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/26/2023 at 4:58 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

The first thing I will suggest is to get yourself a liquid GH/kh test kit.  Just to verify what you need from the tap and from the test strips. It's very affordable and ultimately for anyone keeping invertebrates it is a valuable tool.

KH is ok. GH is ok. I would do some water changes to drop it slightly, but that's not a big deal.

Let's use this as a baseline and only focus on the amano shrimp and the snails before we dive into something more complex like the neocaridina.

First hurdle is always acclimation.  They need to be done slowly dripped over time and that helps a lot with acclimation stress. If need be I can attach a video on how to do this.

The second hurdle is going to be stability. Once they are acclimated, that leads to the necessary step of trying to get them to a consistent environment and a situation where there is enough oxygenation, circulation, and plants.

The last hurdle is feeding and there's a variety of things that can compound this. One of the main things you'll deal with is predation, the other is stress.  If the shrimp don't feel like they can be out in the open easily, you need to have a good cover for them and treat them as nocturnal.  A feeding dish is one of the most important tools for smaller shrimp and snails, but less so for amano shrimp.  Snails will graze on the wall and the other surfaces in the tank, as well as the shrimp, but the feeding dish is your visual for how you feed calcium based foods (i.e. "complete" foods for invertebrates) and you can track that they eat those foods to get that nutrition.

In terms of your care in the tank, how often are you changing water and how much? Are you able to add air stones of need be? Especially given the bioload in some of those tanks.

Very normal behavior. You can use something like moss ledges or even a moss wall to give the shrimp their own real estate. Having a pile of wood or rock also really helps them to have a "hive".  One of my favorites being a very big chunk of dragon stone. It has holes built on and looks like a beehive a bit.

Dripping for that long could be doing more harm than good. They may have gotten too cold over that time. Essentially, 30-90 minutes should really be all it takes. In my own methodology I tend to double the water volume 2-3 times and then that is what I call as "good".  I try to have an air stone in there too during that time on very low in addition to adding 1-2 drops of dechlorinator.  

1. Open the bag, add 1-2 drops of dechlorinator immediately and then move that water and shrimp to something like a specimen container.

2. Add air, set up slow drip, and drip them until the container is mostly full. Add some moss also if need be.

3. Pour out as much water as possible and continue the drip process until it fills up again.

4. Using a shrimp net or just letting them swim out of the container, release them into the tank and keep the lights out.

I can tell you from first glance that things are pretty well stocked.  The 10G might be ok, but both tanks I think you need to have a feeding dish for shrimp. Here's why.....

This also applies to snails and fish like corydoras if you have any.

I would definitely add in some air. 1 drop in the 10G and 2 drops in the 55G.

Hey Thank you for the detailed information.

So, I have one small/medium sponge filter in the 10g. I have 1 large co op sponge filter on the left, 1 air stone in the right and a tidal 50/55? hob in the 55g. I am pretty sure that my tanks have plenty of air circulation going on. 

I know I have a really heavy bioload on the 55 but I didn't add my shrimps in there. In the picture, It's just guppies reproduced so much buy I didn't have as many  in there when I added the shrimps. actually 2 blue dreams that survived the longest, I moved them from the 10 g to 55g.

Here's a picture of my make shift qt tank.

 

I have added 2 of my last mystery snails out of 8 that I bought from different vendors. This is also where I added 20 mixed neos and they all perished within 3 weeks. At that time, I only had bunch of ramshorn in there and a lot of mosses and floater. I saw them grazing all day long but slowly one would just fall off the floaters and die. I didn't have any predatory fish or anything in there. That's why I am so confused. Even if it wasn't acclimated properly, I don't think any fish or shrimp would die after 3 weeks because of it. 

You also mentioned not to mix pet with pest snails. While I do agree that pest snails like ramshorn are hardier in general, the same should go for Malaysian Trumpet snails . I have added 4-5 different order of MTSs in both of my tanks. I would just see the empty shells of them whenever I would remove debris from the bottom of my tanks. 

As for food after failing couple of time, I ended up buying the crab cuisine and xtreme shrimpy food as those are full of minerals and calcium for the shrimps. 

I will keep in mind of how you showed the drip acclimating process if I end up buying more shrimps/snails.

 

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/26/2023 at 5:07 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

When you say "dead shrimps" can you clarify or do you have any photos as to what they looked like? Did you see molting issues or anything out of the ordinary? Did you ever try to QT some prior to adding them to the tank?

Here's some screenshots. 

I did add my last 20 mixed neos in the 5 gallon water dispenser. 

 

But they all dropped like flies from the floaters up top. I did have one air stone in there back then. that was like 4-5 months ago. 

Surprisingly not one fish showed interest when they dropped dead. I even left them overnight in the fish tank but only ramshorn snails showed interest.

I don't think I saw molting issue. I did find some clear molted shells of the ghost shrimps that I got from petco but nothing from neos.

On 10/26/2023 at 7:10 PM, Lennie said:

First things first I would not categorize pest snails with more of the “pet” ones and shrimps. Pest snails are quite hardy in general. They can tolerate undesirable situations and conditions much much better in my experience. 
 

In addition, those small ramshorns are usually not interesting to a regular fish as much as a shrimp or bigger snail with wormlike huge antennas can be. This is more about fish potentially showing interest here I believe. Those ramshorns may face some damage if you happen to put them in a puffer tank for example, since this way, they will be the potential food target by the specific fish.

 

If you ask me, I think shrimp are silly and they trust unconditionally. I keep shrimp in 10 different community tanks at this point, they seem to lack the surviving instinct. 
 

I think that is the most possible scenario. The other one can be your water has stuff that are deadly for shrimp, maybe like copper? But then, how are ramshorns thriving is the question. They dont sound to tolerate but thrive you say. 
 

So I still think it is the aggression 

I don't doubt you that it can be aggression. but for my last order, I added them in a 5 gallon qt tank. They all died in there as well in the same fashion. There were only ramshorn snails in there and bunch of other mosses and floaters. 

As for copper, I tested that but didn't find anything.

[Arnam Anan]

So, at this point, I was thinking about going caridina route. Any thoughts?

I mean I have pretty soft water coming out of my tap. If I add some driftwood, it should lower the ph to 6.4, I think. 

[Lennie]

 

On 10/27/2023 at 4:36 AM, Arnam Anan said:

I don't doubt you that it can be aggression. but for my last order, I added them in a 5 gallon qt tank. They all died in there as well in the same fashion. There were only ramshorn snails in there and bunch of other mosses and floaters. 

As for copper, I tested that but didn't find anything.

That looks like a different scenario.

I believe the reason why your jar didnt probably work is because it is pretty small space for 3 mystery snails and shrimp and has no filter and/or absurd amount of fast growing plants so no cycle or anything to help with potential ammonia or nitrite (if there is any) toxicity. Mystery snails have a huge bioload and shrimp do well in seasoned tanks and ofcourse both require a cycled tank with no off parameters. Did you test the water for ammonia and nitrite back then from the jar? 

Also in the picture above, the mystery snail looks scared to use its antenna. Thats basically how they feel around and move normally as they have poor vision. That says something about potential agression or harassing easily. You should see those antennas flowing around freely. I cant clearly tell if there is antenna damage there of its hiding because of being scared.

 

but instead, should be like this, feeling around moving freely:

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/26/2023 at 6:44 PM, Arnam Anan said:

I mean I have pretty soft water coming out of my tap. If I add some driftwood, it should lower the ph to 6.4, I think. 

For caridina you're looking at some pretty specific needs. 

1. Active substrate.
2. RO water (especially for top-offs)
3. Very careful TDS control in comparison to neocaridina which means it is even moreso of a risk.

I will say it again, you seriously should focus on just amano shrimp for now and go from there.  Once you get amano shrimp going and thriving, then you can basically go either way in terms of caridina vs. neocaridina shrimp.  If you go caridina, I urge you to have a shrimp only tank for them because it's very specific and low PH. (sometimes below 6.0).

 

 

On 10/26/2023 at 6:36 PM, Arnam Anan said:

All of these look like stress deaths which are either attributed to some sort of a water issue, acclimation issue, or lack of being able to get food.  Amano shrimp show very little fear when it comes to getting food when they need it.  When they need it they are fiesty and will go grab food then run off to eat it.

Because you're losing amano shrimp I can pretty much pinpoint things towards a water parameter, water quality, or oxygenation type of issue.  Let's try to break down what is going on here.
 

On 10/26/2023 at 6:12 PM, Arnam Anan said:

This is also where I added 20 mixed neos and they all perished within 3 weeks. At that time, I only had bunch of ramshorn in there and a lot of mosses and floater.

Deaths within the first month or so is usually a result of stress.  This could be due to a handful of reasons: acclimation, care, water quality, etc.  Much like plants the shrimp can try to hold on and survive and they are very good at doing this, but they do need certain things to be able to do so.   Based on your other responses with how you acclimated or plop and dropped them I would lead towards very high stress up front and then they weren't able to relax in the new environment and thrive.  Shipping can cause things like cracked shells or can cause stress molts.  So that first 1-2 months is seriously critical for dwarf shrimp and it's important to make sure they are able to get calcium based foods in order to molt on schedule and molt fully. Oxygenation helps to reduce stress during that time.  Plants give them cover.  Moss gives them surfaces to graze on. wood gives them very easy surfaces to graze on.  It's not to say you need to tick all of those boxes, but just to mention the advantage of certain things in the tank and what it means for the shrimp.

On 10/26/2023 at 6:12 PM, Arnam Anan said:

As for food after failing couple of time, I ended up buying the crab cuisine and xtreme shrimpy food as those are full of minerals and calcium for the shrimps. 

Very good to hear.
 

On 10/26/2023 at 6:12 PM, Arnam Anan said:

Hey Thank you for the detailed information.

So, I have one small/medium sponge filter in the 10g. I have 1 large co op sponge filter on the left, 1 air stone in the right and a tidal 50/55? hob in the 55g. I am pretty sure that my tanks have plenty of air circulation going on. 

I know I have a really heavy bioload on the 55 but I didn't add my shrimps in there. In the picture, It's just guppies reproduced so much buy I didn't have as many  in there when I added the shrimps. actually 2 blue dreams that survived the longest, I moved them from the 10 g to 55g.

I've been running my tidals and testing them a lot when it comes to my own tanks.  I would not recommend them for shrimp because it will kill baby shrimp and ultimately you'll never grow new shrimp.  For amano shrimp, this is much less of an issue, but for neocaridina and for caridina shrimp you can't run a tidal without having some very critical modifications or blocking off the intakes (there are 3 of them) and making sure shrimp can't get in there.

The shrimp will normally gravitate where there is the most water movement.  Something like a piece of wood near the intake or output on the HoB is likely where you see them.  A 55G tank, being 4 foot long, it means that you have very narrow circulation.  If the HoB is mounted on the end and the output runs across the length of the tank, that would improve things.  As for air powered filtration to support the tank, you have 1 sponge filter and one air stone.  The most I ran in my 55G tank.... just for comparison.... was 5-7 air driven filters.  That is obviously excessive.  But, what I am trying to get across is the stocking in the tank and just how much oxygen can really be used by a tank with that many fish.  I would encourage you to add another air stone if possible.  If not, I understand.  Push the tidal 55G to as close to the middle of the tank as you can, airstone to the left and sponge filter to the right.  just because the air stone will take slightly less room it can fit to the left of the HoB).  In your 10G. I would be running 2 air stones, personally speaking, for a shrimp setup, but I understand that might seem like overkill.  You can run one filter and just push more air to increase that oxygenation.

I think your gauge really should be the amano shrimp for this.  If you see them running around sitting near the highest flow parts of the tank and not moving at all from those locations, then you really need to increase oxygenation.  If you see them normally searching around the tank without any issues at all, then you should take that as a sign that your circulation and oxygenation is sufficient.

OK..... last thing on the list was simply the water quality.  I cannot speak to stability of your tank, but one thing to note is going to be monitoring nitrates very closely with shrimp.  Try to keep it lower (ignoring your fertilizer number) due to the higher bioload in the tank.  This normally means higher volume water changes, which directly goes towards stress and that molting schedule of the shrimp.  Thankfully, amano shrimp can be very resilient towards water changes and they generally don't stress during big water volume fluctuations.  If you see them trying to leave the tank or get into the filter, that means you have temperature, PH, or something that is causing very high stress. They can even jump out of the tank at that point as well.  Watch there behavior and note that.  sometimes water being too hot or too cold can instantly shock and ultimately kill a lot of shrimp.  It's just something to note and try to match temperature.  (as mentioned, this is less critical with amano shrimp, but something to keep in mind).

KH I would try to shoot for is 60-80 ppm
GH I would try to shoot for is 100-150 ppm.  Keeping the tank at those levels as well as water you're adding into the tank is going to be critical.  If you don't that gives the shock factor and high stress and pretty much is a no-go situation for neocaridina shrimp.  For amano shrimp, they can handle swings. but if you're just topping off and not changing water, then the fish suffer.  It's not really an easy situation here.  That's where you're likely running into these stress deaths.

For the 55G in particular, how often are you cleaning the filter?  How often are you siphoning the substrate?  How often are you changing water, how are you doing that, and what volume of water are you changing?

I hope this makes sense and if you need further clarification or don't quite understand the reasoning behind some of the care factors here, please feel free to ask and I will try to make it more clear.

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:34 AM, Lennie said:

 

That looks like a different scenario.

I believe the reason why your jar didnt probably work is because it is pretty small space for 3 mystery snails and shrimp and has no filter and/or absurd amount of fast growing plants so no cycle or anything to help with potential ammonia or nitrite (if there is any) toxicity. Mystery snails have a huge bioload and shrimp do well in seasoned tanks and ofcourse both require a cycled tank with no off parameters. Did you test the water for ammonia and nitrite back then from the jar? 

Also in the picture above, the mystery snail looks scared to use its antenna. Thats basically how they feel around and move normally as they have poor vision. That says something about potential agression or harassing easily. You should see those antennas flowing around freely. I cant clearly tell if there is antenna damage there of its hiding because of being scared.

 

but instead, should be like this, feeling around moving freely:

Hi, I think I can explain that antenna hiding. 

As you can see, I believe that is their sleeping/resting position. Taken right now. I can post a picture late afternoon when they are active. Both of them are pretty active and has long antennas. And while it's possible that they were stressed and/or harassed, I didn't see any sign of missing antenna which I did notice in ramshorns though in 10g when I added a betta to it. He was definitely interested in ramshorn antennas. 

My jar water is also being tested regularly and didn't see any measurable difference between the tank and jar other than nitrate being almost always zero in there. I have also tested for ammonia but same result. 

As for mystery snails and shrimp in the jar. that didn't happen. I didn't have mystery snails when I was trying shrimps. And now that I am trying snails, I don't have any shrimps rn. I just added a handful of ramshorn,  mosses, and floaters to the jar 2-3 months before I added my last order of 20 mixed neos. During this time I monitored water parameters quite closely and performed 1 water change halfway through the cycling.  I did feed the ramshorn snails during this time and before adding the 20 neos, I removed 20 ramshorn snails that way there is not enough change in bioload. 

 

I was about to post this reply 😂 and saw this guy moving around.

[Tanked]

I haven't jumped into shrimp keeping yet, so I can't help too much.  My first adventure with Amanos only lasted a few months, I never saw them for the first 2 weeks. My snails don't seem to have any issues.

 

On 10/26/2023 at 4:38 PM, Arnam Anan said:

So, while they might have been harassed, I was not able to see any sign of that.

I almost forgot. I also had a five gallon tank with just shrimp and snails. No fish. and the same this happened.

This pretty much eliminates harassment as the problem.  I think at this point I would set up the 5 gallon shrimp and or snail only tank. using bottled water.  This might be cheaper than sending your water out for professional analysis. 

What water conditioners, fertilizers and other additives do you use if any? 

 

 

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:41 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I've been running my tidals and testing them a lot when it comes to my own tanks.  I would not recommend them for shrimp because it will kill baby shrimp and ultimately you'll never grow new shrimp.  For amano shrimp, this is much less of an issue, but for neocaridina and for caridina shrimp you can't run a tidal without having some very critical modifications or blocking off the intakes (there are 3 of them) and making sure shrimp can't get in there.

So, I have super glued the skimmer and the bottom of the pump housing box, and installed pre filter sponge on the intake. I personally would buy the aqua clear next time instead of tidal but that's besides the point. 

 

I only had either a sponge filter (10g)or just an air stone(in the 5 gallon jar) with my shrimps. I never put them in the 55g to begin with. I  just put 2 blue dreams in there after losing 9 of them in  the 10g. These two actually lasted the longest. 

On 10/27/2023 at 3:41 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Something like a piece of wood near the intake or output on the HoB is likely where you see them.

Good to know. I know about filter feeders do that but didn't know neos and caridina's do that as well.

 

On 10/27/2023 at 3:41 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

For the 55G in particular, how often are you cleaning the filter?  How often are you siphoning the substrate?  How often are you changing water, how are you doing that, and what volume of water are you changing?

I perform weekly water change ~20%

Clean the tidal every week. Sponge filter every month. Don't really syphon the gravel. I have to dose easy green 3 times the suggested dose every other days to keep up with plant intake. if I miss one day, it reads 0 ppm nitrate. I mean I can go longer without water change without any issues. I have gone more than a month without changing water and everything was fine. I don't like to look at mulm build up which is why I clean the tidal every week. I don't really siphon the substrate. What ever tidal and sponge filter picks up goes to my house plants.

 

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:11 PM, Tanked said:

I haven't jumped into shrimp keeping yet, so I can't help too much.  My first adventure with Amanos only lasted a few months, I never saw them for the first 2 weeks. My snails don't seem to have any issues.

 

This pretty much eliminates harassment as the problem.  I think at this point I would set up the 5 gallon shrimp and or snail only tank. using bottled water.  This might be cheaper than sending your water out for professional analysis. 

What water conditioners, fertilizers and other additives do you use if any? 

 

 

I use api water conditioner, easy green liquid fertilizer. As for additives, I use Seachem equilibrium and crushed coral to raise gh and kh.

As for bottled water, I think for shrimp keeping is not a bad idea if you are keeping 1-2 tanks. I have heard of shrimp keeper going years without changing water.

On 10/27/2023 at 3:41 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I will say it again, you seriously should focus on just amano shrimp for now and go from there.  Once you get amano shrimp going and thriving, then you can basically go either way in terms of caridina vs. neocaridina shrimp.  If you go caridina, I urge you to have a shrimp only tank for them because it's very specific and low PH. (sometimes below 6.0).

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Arnam Anan
Update

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:41 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I will say it again, you seriously should focus on just amano shrimp for now and go from there.  Once you get amano shrimp going and thriving, then you can basically go either way in terms of caridina vs. neocaridina shrimp.  If you go caridina, I urge you to have a shrimp only tank for them because it's very specific and low PH. (sometimes below 6.0).

 

Yeah, I suppose you are right. I heard they were pretty hardy. I will give them another go then. 

[Arnam Anan]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:41 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

All of these look like stress deaths which are either attributed to some sort of a water issue, acclimation issue, or lack of being able to get food. 

I don't doubt you. That's what I am thinking as well. But I just can't figure out what it is. I always bring them to room temp before putting them in the tank. Even though I have soft water, I added minerals to combat that. For food, calcium rich food. Didn't even perform water change in the 5 gallon jar because didn't want to change the parameters. Always had some kind of air going in the tanks. If it was harassment from fish, 5g would not have any issues. developed algae in all the tanks before adding shrimps.

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:20 AM, Arnam Anan said:

I perform weekly water change ~20%

Are you doing anything to condition the water for the shrimp when adding it to the tank? This would be something like salty shrimp or another GH/KH buffer.  Both caridina and neocaridina need this.

If possible, when you keep shrimp, try to keep that to every two weeks when you do your main water change.

This is how I run it to reduce stress:

End of week 1:

1. Turn off equipment, pull the tidal sponges, siphon to "check" the substrate and fill a bucket to clean the sponges and rinse media. Especially the prefilter.

2. Clean all the sponges, replace the media and fill the tank back up (very small amount, you can do this with RO water, if you do this on the 10G then you'd likely want to add buffers and stir the water.

3.  Turn the equipment back on, add in plant fertilizer. Check plants

End of week 2:

1. Turn off equipment, move all sponges and filtration gunk to the buckets.

2. Let debris settle, check under wood for mulm (I keep clown pleco) and remove shrimp feeding dishes. Starting with half of the tank cleared, gently move the shrimp away and siphon the substrate (VERY VERY easy for amano shrimp).  When you're done with one section, move hardscape so you can go to the next section.

3.  Siphon the tank, pinching the hose to reduce water being removed and allow shrimp to escape if they end up in the tube. 

4.  Check very carefully for baby shrimp (or set bucket aside to check later). I use multiple buckets and this allows me to do this.

5. Siphon out the water until the desired % is removed.

6.  Get your water matching to the tank prior to adding it back into the tank. Verify that GH and KH is close, within 0.5-1 degree, and match temperature as best you can. Add back in the water using your own methods.

7. Check on everything for stress signs, move all the hardscape back, add in ferts.

On 10/27/2023 at 9:45 AM, Arnam Anan said:

I don't doubt you. That's what I am thinking as well. But I just can't figure out what it is. I always bring them to room temp before putting them in the tank. Even though I have soft water, I added minerals to combat that. For food, calcium rich food. Didn't even perform water change in the 5 gallon jar because didn't want to change the parameters. Always had some kind of air going in the tanks. If it was harassment from fish, 5g would not have any issues. developed algae in all the tanks before adding shrimps.

Essentially, water in Should be like water out. Think of it as a river and you're just seeing water flow from one region to the next.  That water is also well oxygenated.

Equilibrium is your GH buffer, but you'd be shocking them with 0 KH water. There's no real way around this using just crushed coral and using RO water with very low minerals in that water.

One other thing to verify is that you DON'T have a water softener or something that is adding salts and other things to the tank water.