Respectful discussion of filter media efficiency.

[_Eric_]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:46 AM, madmark285 said:

The other problem , where do you squeeze a sponge? When I do a water change, I just siphon the water out the window. With python system, you are dumping the water into a sink. With the Tidal filter I am using temporarily, I have to siphon water into a bucket, clean the filter sponge in the bucket then dump the bucket water out the window. Much more work, pain in the a**.

Long ago I had a 50 gallon tank that was difficult to maintain, it crashed and I ended up getting rid of it. I vowed never to do that again. If your tanks are easy to clean, higher probability that you will maintain them, at least for me.

 

 

I use a one gallon ziplock for cleaning HOB sponges.  It is enough water for me to clean the sponge every month or two.   No siphoning or buckets needed.  

[HelplessNewbie]

I am only a few months in this hobby, but I had read that same article and many others. I decided it won't hurt to combine many different filter media types types (ACO sponge, original hob cartridge, pot scrubbers, polyfill, ativated carbon), just like I did with the equipment that generated water movement in the filters (air pumps with air line hoses, mini fountain pumps, powerheads).

Just like IT geeks used to say when dealing with UNIX/Linux, there are many ways to accomplish a task. This is why I enjoy aquarium projects.

Anyway, so far, so good.

[JChristophersAdventures]

@Guppysnail Thanks... it is always a good idea to explore ways of doing it better, more easily and cheaper all-in-one. Back in the 90s, I used a combination of a HOB and an under-gravel filter with power-heads attached to the tops of the tubes instead of air-stones to move the water in my 55g setups. I know that under-gravel systems have fallen out of favor, but I really liked both filter methods. Those power-heads really kept the water flowing even through the course sand I was using at the time.

[OnlyGenusCaps]

On 8/9/2023 at 11:33 AM, MattyM said:

Biohome and makes a really nice profit off of its inflated price.

So, I ran Biohome for awhile in my sumps.  The pores are larger than those on ceramic rings, but they seem just large enough to capture lots of uneaten food.  I found I had trouble keeping my nitrates under control, even with quite large water changes after a fair bit of time.  I ended up replacing them with the old, plastic, pond "bio-balls", and I never encountered the issue again.  Mulm built up around the balls as well, so I'm not sure why the difference, but I won't use ceramic type medias again.

On 8/9/2023 at 3:07 PM, Guppysnail said:

Moral of my story. They all work just fine.

This is likely the moral of the story.  Reefers, who need to keep insanely low N and P values, don't use any biomedia typically.  The rocks they use are sufficient to house the bacteria that convert the most toxic forms of N to less toxic species.  Most FW hobbyists probably have more media devoted to bio-conversion of N than necessary.  Now there might be something to be said about heterotrophic bacteria and whether you might want more area to support this function, but I digress.  Anyhow, nothing wrong with having more, or seeing the most efficient means, but loads of methods likely work just fine. 

That said, I still like knowing, and I get a little filtration obsessed.  🤭

[JChristophersAdventures]

@OnlyGenusCaps Me, too!

@Guppysnail btw... is Cory streaming tonight? Nothing up on YT, yet? Thanks.

[Guppysnail]

On 8/9/2023 at 5:56 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

I know that under-gravel systems have fallen out of favor,

I still use them. I love them. 

On 8/9/2023 at 6:18 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

@OnlyGenusCaps Me, too!

@Guppysnail btw... is Cory streaming tonight? Nothing up on YT, yet? Thanks.

Ask @nabokovfan87 I rarely get to see livestreams 

[JChristophersAdventures]

@nabokovfan87 I think I have seen you on Dan's Fish's live-stream, sometimes? Don't see where Cory has anything up for upcoming live-stream, tonight?

Edited August 9, 2023 by JChristophersAdventures

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:51 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

@nabokovfan87 I think I have seen you on Dan's Fish's live-stream, sometimes? Don't see where Cory has anything up for upcoming live-stream, tonight?

Unsure. Given the time I would think it's too late.  Cory mentioned some personal stuff going on last stream and potentially was covering workload as a result.

On 8/9/2023 at 1:14 PM, Guppysnail said:

@JChristophersAdventures I could not find ACO video of a fish farm. Their filter was only water pouring over a hanging basket of rocks. That worked just as well for biological filtration as any other thing and they raise millions of fish a year. I’ll keep looking for the video. 

It's a "shower filter".  Here is the basic idea:

 

[madmark285]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:41 PM, JChristophersAdventures said:

I take it the plastic pot scrubbers would work in place of bio rings or similar media in a HOB filter as well? 

Yes. I used them long ago in a large filter I built. 

Edit: I am currently building a sump filter and my original plan was to use a large sponge filter and a mix of SeaChem Matrix/gravel. The water flow was very restricted and cause a backup with this plan so I had to re-think it. So I bought the pot scrubbers hoping they will not restrict the flow of water very much and I will add some layers of Matrix. If I had a do over, I would not have purchased the Matrix product. 

Long term, I don't want to clean this filter section. I will be using filter socks and may add a filter pad on top of the pot  scrubbers. When I wash the filter socks, I just toss the filter pads in the washing machine. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by madmark285

[nabokovfan87]

Here is one discussing the bioring use, bioball, and a mixed filtration setup.  You can see nitrite/nitrate results over several weeks.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/441/1/012121/pdf

Here is one focused on trickle/shower filtration setups

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0144860999000321

This is a study based on sponge filtration and pore size for wastewater treatment

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S246820391830058X

This is one I was trying to find... really decent little study on a few filtration setups and their performance removing ammonia.  If anyone wants to dive into this further specifically, it's a good one to do so for this topic and I can pull my thoughts from it if need be.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/31044309/investigations-of-water-purification-performance-for-aquarium-ser

.....and for fun, here is one that suggests using coconut husks in a jungle environment.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652622025227

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 8/10/2023 at 3:38 AM, madmark285 said:

When I wash the filter socks, I just toss the filter pads in the washing machine. 

Maybe this is obvious, but do you run the washing machine with no detergent, filter pads by themselves?

[Ken Burke]

On 8/9/2023 at 3:46 AM, madmark285 said:

The other problem , where do you squeeze a sponge? When I do a water change, I just siphon the water out the window. With python system, you are dumping the water into a sink. With the Tidal filter I am using temporarily, I have to siphon water into a bucket, clean the filter sponge in the bucket then dump the bucket water out the window. Much more work, pain in the a**.

Long ago I had a 50 gallon tank that was difficult to maintain, it crashed and I ended up getting rid of it. I vowed never to do that again. If your tanks are easy to clean, higher probability that you will maintain them, at least for me.

 

 

I run my python through the doggy door to a garden hose. Get the siphon going and shut the hose off.  The tank water ends up on the lawn.  I’m with you on keeping it simple though.  A 50% wc on a 10 gal tank is like 5 min and one 5 gal bucket of fresh water.  But my 75 gal is a whole different deal.  

[Galabar]

I never new the special technique for starting the siphon until I watched this:

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by Galabar

[madmark285]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:54 PM, RennjiDK said:

It's actually fairly easy, and pretty much any media including sand can do it. There are plenty of low oxygen environments in our tanks. Anaerobic bacteria...

Are you sure? Can you measure the amount of oxygen present deep in a sand bed? And what happens if the environment is disturbed and your anaerobic bacteria are exposed to oxygen, will it kill them off?

I thought the same, just bury a pipe filled with SeaChem de❊nitrate connect to a micro-pump. But the other issue raised in the above link, it would have to be a huge pipe to be effective.

A freshwater nitrate filter for aquariums is a solution in search of a problem, regular water changes solves the problem. 

[Guppysnail]

This thread went off topic and became negative. That portion has been moved to a locked closed thread. Further dechlorinator discussion from this thread is to be done through direct message. 
 

Original media discussion has been preserved as it’s positive and informative. Further media discussion may continue on this thread in a positive manner. 

[Galabar]

On 8/11/2023 at 7:50 AM, Guppysnail said:

This thread went off topic and became negative. That portion has been moved to a locked closed thread. Further dechlorinator discussion from this thread is to be done through direct message. 
 

Original media discussion has been preserved as it’s positive and informative. Further media discussion may continue on this thread in a positive manner. 

Thank you! 🙂

Edited August 11, 2023 by Galabar

[madmark285]

On 8/10/2023 at 9:00 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Maybe this is obvious, but do you run the washing machine with no detergent, filter pads by themselves?

Extra small load with a little bleach. I add a second rinse. 

[RennjiDK]

On 8/11/2023 at 5:54 AM, madmark285 said:

Are you sure? Can you measure the amount of oxygen present deep in a sand bed? And what happens if the environment is disturbed and your anaerobic bacteria are exposed to oxygen, will it kill them off?

Yes, as long as the sand is deep. I personally don't possess an O2 sensor, but you could test with proper equipment. If their environment is disturbed and oxygen is introduced, the anaerobic bacteria will die off. More importantly, there a very toxic compounds which can build in low oxygen environments, and when released, can cause harm and death to the livestock inhabitants. You usually see this when people who don't vacuum their sand try to replace their substrate, after being in place for years.

On 8/11/2023 at 5:54 AM, madmark285 said:

I thought the same, just bury a pipe filled with SeaChem de❊nitrate connect to a micro-pump. But the other issue raised in the above link, it would have to be a huge pipe to be effective.

A freshwater nitrate filter for aquariums is a solution in search of a problem, regular water changes solves the problem. 

Yes, and no. I never claimed that you could reduce nitrates in a FW system via anaerobic bacteria. I specifically stated that without the benefit of a protein skimmer, you would be left with net zero results at the end of the process. This is because you are not going to develop a large enough colony without the aid of carbon dosing and an export method. If your goal is just No3 and Po4 reduction, a great and simple FW solution would be to either balance your nutrients with enough live plants to counteract input, or in plant-less/low plant load systems, install an algae scrubber. You can significantly cut back on WCs with either method, as you are only replenishing trace.

[Galabar]

I think we would need some testing to get a handle on various media efficiency.  In the future, I too might just go with sponge or pot scrubbers over ceramic media, but I'd like more information. 🙂

That link I provided lays out the testing protocols pretty well.  It sure would be great if a big organization would try to reproduce that and may some YouTube videos about it... 😉

Edited August 14, 2023 by Galabar