Shrimp vs filters and filchers.

[Tanked]

I'm considering adding shrimp to one of the aquariums.  In the process of researching the various requirements and opinions I came up with two possible problems.

Can I keep shrimp in a tank with a UGF?  Can I keep shrimp with SAEs?  Both might be a problem with eggs and shrimplets.  I'm wondering if the SAEs would prey upon the adults.  Along with this is; How much flow is too much?

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:44 AM, Tanked said:

Can I keep shrimp with SAEs?  Both might be a problem with eggs and shrimplets.  I'm wondering if the SAEs would prey upon the adults.  Along with this is; How much flow is too much?

I think they would do fine together. SAE don't really have the mouth shape for going after shrimp. I would think it's very possible that they may feed on some shrimp, but as long as they are fed normally they should be grazing in algae or other foods.

The typical and normal shrimp advice applies.  I believe they will do much better in a shrimp only setup and that means the colony can take hold prior to adding any fish.

When you're talking SAEs vs a single SAE that's also a distinction here. You're normally talking a 3-4 foot tank for an SAE as optimal due to the size they get. Densely planted as well.  These things combined all mean that it's likely going to be easy for shrimp to hide.  Having hides for the shrimp, especially the baby shrimp, will mean that they have a better chance of thriving alongside the SAE. 

In terms of flow and how much is too much, my advice would be to use only air powered filtration in the shrimp tank. Given that setup of 3-4 foot long tanks, I have had anywhere from 3-5 air powered filters and it isn't some ridiculous amount of flow. In my current tank for shrimp I run two air filters per 29G tank.

In my 75G with SAE I would have 2 sponge filters 1/3 equidistant inward on the tank as well as a ziss bubble bio on the sidewalls and back center of the tank. (2+3 filters). Ultimately you can likely be fine with just the two large sponge filters as well as 3. If you want to add more oxygenation, then you can always just add an air stone.  SAE aren't too demanding in terms of needing a very fast moving tank. The main thing is decent enough oxygenation and the right temperature to keep that oxygenated water. (74 degrees or so)

Hopefully this helps, please feel free to ask further questions.

As this isn't something anyone would normally try it's difficult to say if it will be a perfect situation. As always, please have a backup plan in case you need to move the fish and run shrimp only.

Edited July 25, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Guppysnail]

My neocaridina are always overpopulated in all 14 tanks. In terms of flow they don’t care. All my display tanks run fluval 07 series canisters 2 sizes to large +an oversized HOB + 2 airstones full blast + UGF with air on full blast. Some tanks I run an ACO powerhead as well.  
The only way flow would be too much for shrimp is if it’s too much for all but super high flow fish. Their small body structure and lack of fins working as sails is to their advantage. 
I occasionally find 1-2 shrimplettes milling about under my UGF plate (I can see the bottom of my tanks they are on open stands) they come back up through the outflow. I have never seen a dead shrimp under the UGF. 

Edit to add how even high flow does not deter neocaridina I alway have a colony living INSIDE my canisters. I have seen them swim and crawl down the outflow. I have watched them crawl up a large HOB outflow. They just are not affected. 

[tolstoy21]

On 7/25/2023 at 11:44 AM, Tanked said:

Can I keep shrimp in a tank with a UGF?  Can I keep shrimp with SAEs? 

Yes to UGF. I keep UGFs in my caridina tanks. As far as SAEs, yeah I think so.

[Guppysnail]

Just for fun…

on the flip side Shrimp don’t need flow. I pulled extra hornwort to a container on my kitchen window ledge about 2 months ago. . I pulled a piece out yesterday and found some shrimp had migrated with the hornwort. Now they are having babies in this unfiltered no air stone container. Here is one of the babies 🤣 I was not feeding this container either since I did not know they were there. After they get established I. Your tanks they are hardy and like pest snails almost impossible to get out. 

[Tanked]

 

It would appear that I am over thinking this.  The original thought was to add shrimp to the 29 gallon planted community. The tank includes a UGF, side mounted HOB, SAEs and Tetras. There is enough flow to cause the some of the plants too sway slightly. The young Embers aren't deterred by the flow and the air driven UGF probably lacks the suction required to trap the baby shrimp.

@Guppysnail Love the mini aquarium. If they can live in 60 degree water, than my no tech project tank might have occupants other than plants and pest snails..  

[Guppysnail]

On 7/26/2023 at 12:56 PM, Tanked said:

If they can live in 60 degree water,

I’m not certain how low they can go but last year I had this same window container with plants and shrimp of course came along. It was winter and the ledge is drafty. The water went to 64 and they were still going strong. 

Found this looks like they can survive down to 50

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:56 AM, Tanked said:

@Guppysnail Love the mini aquarium. If they can live in 60 degree water, than my no tech project tank might have occupants other than plants and pest snails..  

Once they get "too cold" their muscles start to stop functioning and they die. You'd want to keep them generally as close to 72-76 as you can for general purposes. The lowest I would take them is around 68. I would be ok with 65 as long as it is short term and not an extended period.

If you're interested, I can try to find the research paper on this topic.  The last time I tried to find it, I do not think I was able to locate it. They have all sorts of low temp studies due to invasive species research.

[JettsPapa]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:56 AM, Tanked said:

 

It would appear that I am over thinking this.  The original thought was to add shrimp to the 29 gallon planted community. The tank includes a UGF, side mounted HOB, SAEs and Tetras. There is enough flow to cause the some of the plants too sway slightly. The young Embers aren't deterred by the flow and the air driven UGF probably lacks the suction required to trap the baby shrimp.

@Guppysnail Love the mini aquarium. If they can live in 60 degree water, than my no tech project tank might have occupants other than plants and pest snails..  

I would strongly suggest covering the intake for the HOB.  There are sponges in several sizes made just for that purpose.  I usually buy one size smaller than recommended, even if I have to enlarge the hole a little bit.  When I get the recommended size they always seem to large and bulky.

On 7/26/2023 at 12:51 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Once they get "too cold" their muscles start to stop functioning and they die. You'd want to keep them generally as close to 72-76 as you can for general purposes. The lowest I would take them is around 68. I would be ok with 65 as long as it is short term and not an extended period.

If you're interested, I can try to find the research paper on this topic.  The last time I tried to find it, I do not think I was able to locate it. They have all sorts of low temp studies due to invasive species research.

I'm not going to disagree with you, but that temperature must be pretty low.  I've had shrimp outside in 24" deep tubs continuously since the spring of 2022.  While the winters here in southeast Texas are mild compared to much of the country, we do get below freezing, and the tubs were frozen over solid for a day or two last winter.  While I'm sure it slowed their metabolism down when that happened, when the weather warmed up they were thriving.  I've seen reports from other people who've had similar experience with them.

In my experience shrimp can withstand a wide temperature range, as long as it's gradual.  They can't handle sudden temperature changes.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/26/2023 at 11:07 AM, JettsPapa said:

 

In my experience shrimp can withstand a wide temperature range, as long as it's gradual.  They can't handle sudden temperature changes.

There's a few studies, like I said a lot of the focus is on temperature due to something like invasive species research.

Here is one example that is relevant to the hobby. Growth over time and how temperature impacts that growth.

I am trying to locate a bit more information.

........

19.7 C = 67.5 F

This is from a 3 month invasive species map study completed in Japan.

 

Here is one with 5 ranges of temp and it shows the population size in those different ranges.

https://edit.elte.hu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10831/50842/Occurrence of non-native red cherry shrimp in European temperate waterbodies a case study from Hungary.pdf

This is a study in Canada, very informative.

Quote

In order to successfully invade, however, survival alone is not enough. My qualitative observations demonstrated that N. davidi became steadily less responsive at low temperatures, losing their caridoid escape reaction response (colloquially known as 'lobstering') to sudden sources of stimulus, such as the vibrations from a dropped metal probe and becoming more tolerant of being touched by the same probe. Below 10°C, these cherry shrimp moved only sluggishly when actively pushed around by a probe, if at all. For context, native fairy shrimp (order Anostraca) remain active and responsive even in 4°C water (A. deBruyn, personal observation). Even if a group of adult cherry shrimp were able to survive in sub-10°C water, such a population would likely be moribund due to a lack of local reproduction, serving only as a population sink reinforced by the immigration of more adults who were able to develop in warmer waters.

https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/24/items/1.0380902

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[TOtrees]

I've missed the early parts of this thread (TLDR), but my own experience with cherry shrimp in COLD water matches some of the articles shared by @nabokovfan87. Adult RCS will survive in cold water, right down to just above freezing. The notes/summary by Debruyn support mortality of babies at those low ranges, which is what I've also seen. So adults become moribund (not the same as dead/mortality) below 15c or around 60F but don't die. Juvies likely survive somewhat at the upper end of that low range, and more of them die out the colder it gets, likely smallest ones first. If there are fish that remain active at those low temps (even low activity), and the RCS aren't able to get into good cover, they'd be eaten for sure. 

[Tanked]

That is a lot of reading.  If I read it right, The Canadian study finding "invasive" gold fish and RCS in the same area must have come as quite a surprise.  On the other hand, the Hungarians seem to be willing to except the RCS as a permanent and growing problem.  

It makes perfect sense that cold water will slow everything down. I only have one unheated aquarium.  Within a degree or two, the others maintain 76F.  If my room temperature ever goes below 60F the shrimp might be on their own anyway.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/26/2023 at 7:56 PM, Tanked said:

That is a lot of reading.  If I read it right, The Canadian study finding "invasive" gold fish and RCS in the same area must have come as quite a surprise.  On the other hand, the Hungarians seem to be willing to except the RCS as a permanent and growing problem.  

It makes perfect sense that cold water will slow everything down. I only have one unheated aquarium.  Within a degree or two, the others maintain 76F.  If my room temperature ever goes below 60F the shrimp might be on their own anyway.

Lower temp also generally boosts the female gender traits.  There are some studies on that as well.  As it gets colder and colder breeding slows down, so the closer you get to 50's there are changes into the way the colony functions.  The interesting and concerning part on the canadian study was how the shrimp reacted to being poked and how they generally couldn't or didn't move as a result of the temperature dropping.  Oxygenation plays a role, hand in hand, with temperature when it comes to the shrimp behavior.  (studies on this as well)