Trio meds and Discus disaster

[Rob2718]

We had a cycling disaster after using the trio meds on our newly purchased discus.

When the discus arrived, we slowly acclimated them to the tank water and temperature. The 30 gallon tank was filtered with a Fluval 407 that was full of fully cycled media. The next day, we added a single dose meds (Fritz Paracleanse, Fritz Maracyn, and IchX) at the recommended dosages. A half day later, the tank crashed hard, the water was cloudy and all the fish were lying on the bottom dead or dying. We changed most of the water, and added two 80 gallon sponge filters (also fully cycled) and the tank and surviving fish recovered (but many were already gone).

Now the fish (plus some replacements) are thriving, in a 75 gallon tank filtered by two fluval 407's plus an air stone for extra oxygen (without it they are gasping). Tank temperature is 85 degrees, and water changes are done daily due to the high amount of food they are eating.

Now the question. Most of these fish have not been treated with any medications since we purchased them. We would like to start them out parasite free, but do not want another cycling disaster. Is there something about the setup (high temperature, bare tank, canister only biofiltration) that makes one or more of the above medicines ill advised? Would you recommend skipping preventative medications entirely, or modify the treatment somehow? What could have gone wrong the first time and what should we do differently this time?

Thanks,

Robin

 

[AllFishNoBrakes]

Hey @Robin . Sorry you had that experience!

My understanding is that the higher the temp, the less oxygen the water holds. I run air in all my tanks, and especially at that high of temp I would definitely run air stones. 
 

Meds definitely cloud up the water, and it is always recommended to run air when using meds. 
 

If I was in your situation, and was concerned about parasites, I personally would do 1 round of Paracleanse (with air stones, per the instructions on the box) and then give them a couple of weeks off. From there, you could consider something like lavamisole if you wanted to further deworm. Simply my $0.02. 
 

Best of luck to you moving forward!

Edited February 21, 2023 by AllFishNoBrakes

[PerceptivePesce]

I dosed 1pack/10gallons maracyn and 1tsp/10gallons ichx a couple weeks ago.  My BB never crashed.

[Mmiller2001]

Skip the antibiotic.

[jwcarlson]

Where did you get your discus?  I've got a pretty standard QT protocol for discus that I used, let people talk me out of part way through, and then paid for it later.  I can PM it to you (link to another forum).  The only other thing I would do would be to add a prophylactic metronidazole course at the end of the other meds.  

It's basically prazi, levamisole... Something else I am missing.  

It's weird that overnight a BB wipe out would cause this problem isn't it?  I fish-in cycled my discus and had no issues.  Could be oxygen related like others have mentioned. 

I'll shoot your a PM either way, feelnfree to ignore it! 🙂

You should keep up with the daily water changes as well (in my opinion). 

[jwcarlson]

Also, IMO you can skip the IchX.  If you're worried about ich crank the temp up a bit.  Can do up to 93 for a couple weeks no problem with discus.  Wouldn't suggest doing it with meds in necessarily.  Ich almost cannot survive at 85 as it is. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Rob2718]

@jwcarlson I'd love to read about your discus QT protocol. Throwing in the two cycled sponge filters would help both with ammonia and oxygen. We did have oxygen issues later when trying to wean them off the sponge filters, eventually substituting an air stone. But the big crash behaved like ammonia in my opinion, with cloudiness and even strings of bacteria starting to appear if I remember correctly. We didn't take a water sample as we were too focused on quickly changing out the water and throwing the two sponge filters in there. It went from "fine" to "chaos" is such a short time.

The first batch were from Discus Hans. Beautiful, healthy fish, we loved all the colors. But expensive shipping. The second, replacement batch were from Golden State Discus, 20 minute drive from our home, so saved on shipping. Also very beautiful, healthy fish. But it was heartbreaking to lose so many from that first batch.

[jwcarlson]

I think large pH shifts can cause them to lose a lot of slime coat so could have been that instead of bacteria.  Discus have a... Different slime coat.  I also had an issue this spring when municipal water changed to chloramines and/or I forgot to add my Prime...they got slimy then too.  Though I had forgotten before without issue (I age my water for a day because I have a huge pH shift 7 to 8.3 after aging). 

Edited February 21, 2023 by jwcarlson

[jwcarlson]

Forgot to mention, mine are from Hans as well, before he switched suppliers.  So mine are German discus (Stendkers).  

One thing to be aware of is "cross contamination" on discus.  Mainly German mixed with Asian, but even from different Asian suppliers will not go well.  The thread I sent talks about that some, I believe. 

Third fish on the right looks like it might be in a bit of trouble.  Would highly recommend making sure each fish is eating AND not spitting it all back out.  That cost me a fish and some headache later with another. 

 

Best of luck to you! 

Edited February 21, 2023 by jwcarlson

[nabokovfan87]

Apart from the experienced keepers here, please be sure to check out the Aquarium Adventures channel.  Fun youtuber and he's been around forever, focused on discus.  Jack Watley is also a great resource for technique and information. 

Best of luck with a solution moving forward.  I've used erythromycin, Kanaplex, and a variety of other meds including the trio (and salt) at least 2-3 dozen times.  I've NEVER had a cycle crash on me or even get slowed.

I can't say it isn't a possibility or something that contributed to the issue.  I would review filtration and specifically look at having the types of surfaces that help foster strong biological colonies.  If you want to keep a barebottom tank, consider something like tumbled lava rock or a bag of ceramic media in the corner next to a flow source.  There's easy ways to add a lot of biological so you have more than enough if a portion of your bacteria takes a hit.

I have a QT tank I setup not but 3-4 weeks ago, filter wasn't cycled, I didn't use anything in a bottle, dosed in meds, didn't and haven't had an issue.  Bioload is small.  If you add a lot of bioload to a new tank, that's asking for trouble as well.

On 2/20/2023 at 3:34 PM, Rob2718 said:

Fluval 407

How is it setup?

On 2/20/2023 at 3:34 PM, Rob2718 said:

Now the fish (plus some replacements) are thriving, in a 75 gallon tank filtered by two fluval 407's plus an air stone for extra oxygen (without it they are gasping). Tank temperature is 85 degrees, and water changes are done daily due to the high amount of food they are eating.

This could simply be due to temp and how that affects water oxygenation.  Definitely not a great situation! 😞

[Colu]

It's possible the amount of benefial bacterial on your cycled media wasn't enough to cope with initial load of fish you add the medication caused a drop in the level of desloved oxygen the combination of two probably kill some of your fish I always add extra air stone when treating with any medication and higher levels of desloved oxygen have proven to increase the efficacy of medications and have  lower motility rates during treatment @Rob2718

[Rob2718]

@nabokovfan87Filter setup: vertical portion has sponge, then from bottom to top two trays with biomedia (ceramic cylinders), one with partial crushed coral and biomedia, and one more with sponge. Discus won't need the crushed coral, this was setup for another tank. Next time I get into the filter will move the sponge underneath the biomedia to keep the biomedia clean from pore clogging debris. No chemical filtration. Output is a horizontal spray bar pointed toward the tank edge (under the water surface). This seems to provide almost as much surface agitation as pointing away, but does not create a huge horizontal tank sized vortex. The other fluval has a more gentle output that produces less surface agitation. The aim was to reduce current in the tank but I think I will move to a spray bar type setup for that one as well to get more oxygen.

I am sure that temperature is playing a role on low oxygen levels. This is our first "hot" tank, so we are still learning. 

[Rob2718]

On 2/21/2023 at 5:25 AM, Colu said:

It's possible the amount of benefial bacterial on your cycled media wasn't enough to cope with initial load of fish you add the medication caused a drop in the level of desloved oxygen the combination of two probably kill some of your fish I always add extra air stone when treating with any medication and higher levels of desloved oxygen have proven to increase the efficacy of medications and have  lower motility rates during treatment @Rob2718

I am thinking you are probably right. We thought we had overkill on the amount of media (also had a huge "125 gallon" cycled sponge filter in there I forgot to mention in addition to the canister filter), but the combination of high bioload plus meds reducing beneficials probably combined to cause the crash. Even though more meds are needed in a bigger tank, I think next time we will not skimp on tank size or media (which I still think we had excess) for QT purposes. More water also gives more time to react or notice the disaster happening. Half dead fish are easier to revive than already dead fish.