Kids' Tank

[Katherine]

Ok, they are fine with not getting guppies. They accepted the overpopulation reasoning easily.

We're thinking neon tetras now. It's still not 100% until they've been bagged at the store, but I'm thinking we're probably settled.

With the mystery snails and a hillstream loach and the neons, how many of them should we get? Stick to 6?

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/18/2023 at 3:36 PM, Katherine said:

Stick to 6?

I'd say 8 just to be on the safe side if one of them doesn't make it through acclimation.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

It allll depends on personality. I'd only recommend short finned Guppies so they're fast enough to get away. They do best

[Katherine]

We have neon tetras! The store only had 5, but they should be getting more next week so we'll probably be getting a few more.

I am treating this tank as their quarantine tank. I only turned the light on for the photo and now it'll be off the rest of the day to let them settle in better.

[TheSwissAquarist]

Congrats! How many more are you thinking of getting? 

[Katherine]

On 2/25/2023 at 12:33 PM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Congrats! How many more are you thinking of getting? 

Probably 3-4 more.

[Katherine]

Well, I have sad news. We lost all 5 of the neon tetras. Let me walk through what I think happened and see if you guys agree with my assessment and what I can do from here.

We temperature acclimated by floating the bag in the tank for 20 minutes, then mixed tank water into their bag, roughly doubling the water volume over 15 minutes or so. Dumped the bag over a bucket into a net and released the fish into the tank

Immediately on putting the fish in the tank they seemed fine. Swimming around, exploring.

Maybe half an hour later I noticed them hanging out at the surface a little bit. Not obviously gasping, but it seemed a little strange. I tested the water then.

Temp was 74.something

Ammonia 0

Nitrates 10ppm

Nitrite 0

GH over 300ppm

KH 40ppm

PH 6.4

No chlorine - my tap also tests as no chlorine, but with .5ppm ammonia, so I think that means they use chloramines instead

At this point I did a 50% water change (as close to the same temp as possible, tap parameters match tank parameters besides having .5ppm ammonia) and removed the lobster decoration and smelled it (it smells funky wet, I did not notice this when setting up the tank). I think it likely the issue was chemicals coming off the lobster.

We lost one of them just after the water change. I think this was from me putting the dechlorinator in the tank instead of in the bucket before adding the water. I remembered after this first fish passed (of course!) that I used to have issues doing it that way with danios of a similar size to these tetras.

The others were continuing to spend time at the surface, still not all the time, and not obviously breathing heavily.

At this point we had somewhere to be and I didn't have time to attempt anything else, and wasn't sure what else to attempt even if I did have time.

The other 4 were all dead by the time I got back.

I have moved the 2 mystery snails back to the 75g tank, and plan to do as close to a 100% water change as I can every day for a week or so before putting any livestock back in this tank.

Is there anything else I should be doing? Is it probable that the lobster wasn't the cause? The pink plastic plant has no smell. I've used the barrel decoration before with no issues, the green thing is a hunk of colored glass, from the rock section of one of our LFS so I wouldn't think it would cause issues, but then again, the lobster was also from the same LFS.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Katherine

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I don’t have advice here but I had a similar situation w/ a floating log- it smelled like chemicals, like those old permanent markers (before Sharpies became popular) that used to smell awful. I took it out and did a wc, no ill effects. 

On 2/25/2023 at 6:38 PM, Katherine said:

We lost all 5 of the neon tetras.

 

On 2/25/2023 at 6:38 PM, Katherine said:

Is there anything else I should be doing?

Paging Dr. @Colu

Edited February 25, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Katherine]

I will add, now that I've done a 90%ish water change with the lobster removed, the bubbles coming from my air stone are larger. I had thought they were small before because of how I'd tightened it. It's one of those with the felt disks from ACO.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I just recalled Irene made a video about a similar situation with catfish. Turned out the pH the catfish were in at the LFS was drastically different than the pH in Irene’s tank and they couldn’t adjust. But I don’t know if that applies here.

[Katherine]

I'm not sure. I didn't think to test the PH from the bag they came home in, or ask at the store.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:56 PM, Katherine said:

I'm not sure. I didn't think to test the PH from the bag they came home in, or ask at the store.

I never do. Irene’s situation was probably a one-off. Sounds to me like it’s the lobster’s fault but we will see what other people think

I’m so sorry you and your kids lost your fish. ☹️

[Katherine]

Thank you @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

It could be osmotic shock if your lfs stores water was drastically different or low levels of desloved oxygen with them hanging at the surface what I would do is add a double dose of prime with ever water change and I would add a small amount of aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 10 gallons with any new fish  @Katherine

Edited February 26, 2023 by Colu

[Katherine]

@Colu Is there anything you'd suggest I do differently in the future? Should I start asking water parameters of the store before I buy fish?

[Colu]

On 2/26/2023 at 12:13 AM, Katherine said:

@Colu Is there anything you'd suggest I do differently in the future? Should I start asking water parameters of the store before I buy fish?

Frist I would ask what your lfs  water parameters  are and do they quarantine  you could also dip accumulate them over a longer period of time if you notice them hanging near the surface add an extra air stone 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Colu

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/25/2023 at 3:38 PM, Katherine said:

Temp was 74.something

I think tetras mostly want 78 degrees.   As mentioned by Colu temp plays a role with oxygenation as well.  I had something similar happen with my Bolivian ram.  Poor guy was doing well and I went from 4 tanks down to 1-2.  I didn't realize the temps he needed and he basically just shut down in 24 hours.

On 2/25/2023 at 3:56 PM, Katherine said:

I didn't think to test the PH from the bag they came home in

It's going to be slightly off, but should be close.  If you're really worried at all about parameters you can use a drip and a bucket and slowly acclimate the fish over a longer period. 

On 2/25/2023 at 3:38 PM, Katherine said:

At this point I did a 50% water change (as close to the same temp as possible, tap parameters match tank parameters besides having .5ppm ammonia) and removed the lobster decoration and smelled it (it smells funky wet, I did not notice this when setting up the tank). I think it likely the issue was chemicals coming off the lobster.

Add carbon to the tank for 7-14 days.
 

 

On 2/25/2023 at 3:38 PM, Katherine said:

We temperature acclimated by floating the bag in the tank for 20 minutes, then mixed tank water into their bag, roughly doubling the water volume over 15 minutes or so. Dumped the bag over a bucket into a net and released the fish into the tank

Immediately on putting the fish in the tank they seemed fine. Swimming around, exploring.

Maybe half an hour later I noticed them hanging out at the surface a little bit. Not obviously gasping, but it seemed a little strange. I tested the water then.

The way I do it might be the same, but here's some tips I have that might help in future.

A.  temp acclimate the bag.  20 minutes, sometimes 30+ might be better depending on how much water is in the bag.
B.  take the bag of water and either plop / drop the fish into the tank or dump the bag into a specimen container.  (usually the right size to give enough depth of water for the fish to swim around).  You can then add air into the container if you want as well as dechlorinator
C.  add a small amount of water.  usually a few tablespoons at a time, not a ton.  give it 5-10 minutes, then add more.  continue this until water volume is tripled.
D.  drain off as much water as you can and repeat that process again.

^^ This is basically how I acclimate amano shrimp or sensitive fish.  For neo shrimp you'd want to drip acclimate, but just be aware of temp shock and it taking so long to acclimate, the room being too cold, etc.

I can't say what specifically caused anything here other then the fish reacted poorly to acclimation in this instance.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/25/2023 at 7:22 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Add carbon to the tank for 7-14 days

Oh yes, brilliant! To remove contaminants. I think about carbon when removing meds but I hadn’t considered it for other situations for some reason! 👏 @Katherine if you are using a sponge filter you can just put carbon into a kneehigh and tie it, that’s what I do. And I put it on top of the sponge.

[Katherine]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:55 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Oh yes, brilliant! To remove contaminants. I think about carbon when removing meds but I hadn’t considered it for other situations for some reason! 👏 @Katherine if you are using a sponge filter you can just put carbon into a kneehigh and tie it, that’s what I do. And I put it on top of the sponge.

I think I have some cartridge filters that have carbon in them. I can just stick one next to the sponge filter.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Katherine

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I’m pretty sure that glass chunk is safe. My LFS has similar in their tanks.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

How’s it going with the kids’ tank @Katherine?

[Katherine]

It is still running fishless with the carbon in. I've been feeding it small amounts of fish food to keep the cycle going. I'm a little afraid to try fish in it again.

[Katherine]

Should I move one of my fish over on a day when I can sit and watch it for a while? Then if there's an issue I can move it back to the 75 right away.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I just went through the thread again and it seems like all possible issues were addressed, except maybe temp. I see mixed info online about the range for neons though so temp may have been fine.

Possible issue: lobster (contaminant?)

Resolution: removed. +carbon. Water changes

Possible issue: Not enough air

Resolution: Resolved itself? You are observing larger bubbles now. Optional: gang valve(?)

Possible issue: Acclimation process

Resolution: Drip, or more gradual acclimation 

Possible issue: dechlorinator dosed into tank

Resolution: dechlorinator dosed into bucket first

As far as parameters not matching the store, not much you can do about it. But chances are water is similar if the store is nearby.
 

I think you should try adding a fish on your day off.

Edited March 9, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Lennie]

How long have they spent time in the bag before being drip acclimated?

If they spent enough, one the bag is opened and air exchange happens, the ph changes and ammonia in the water becomes really toxic directly. Maybe that was the issue? Then ammonia toxicity affected them, so they were gasping on top?

What I do is, I usually drop prime or stressguard while drip acclimating a fish. Even tho my fish only spends like 10mins in a bag from my store to home.